China Release New Fighter. The J-10.

Originally posted by mad scientist
Aeroking

Half the facts you have stated above are completely wrong.

• The Sabre fought the MIG-15 during the Korean war not the MIG-21.
  
  
• Russian cruise missiles aren't the most advanced, they merely travel the fastest. However their accuracy is no where near the Tomahawk Block III.
  One Moskit could damage a carrier but it wouldn't take it out. Fleet defences are easily sufficient to take care of a few Moskit missiles. Considering they were designed to knock down mass attacks by the much faster Soviet AS-4 and AS-6 ASM's.
  
  
• The submarine in The Hunt for Red October is not a diesel Kilo class, but a Typhoon class Russian SSBN. Anyway Kilos are 1970's techology, I believe a Chinese Kilo crew was lost just the other day.
  
  
• Your much vaunted ' Xia ' class SSBN, is the worst design ever to go to see. Extremely noisy and dangerous to the crew. USS SSN's have tracked these submarines in the 3rd convergence ( over 150 km away). The JL-2 ( 'Great Wave') missiles they are armed with are unreliable and suffer from many technical problems.
  
  
• You also seem to forget that while the Chicoms are producing the J-10 the US is beginning it's first production run of the F-22. A plane which could fly rings around the J-10 and Russian Sukhoi's.
  
  
• Almost forgot your beloved Sovremmy's. If they attempted to venture into blue water they would be sunk before getting within 500 km of a CBG.
  
  

PS. It always helps to know what your talking about before you post

2, and what about all the other cruise missiles? and what if the mosquito will be equiped with the 200kt warhead?

[i dont know much about subs tho]

5.the f22 is far too much costy and wont be produced in large numbers.


6, they will probably use fishing boats with antiship missiles to overcome the usa navy

We cannot underestimate China. If there is a war, it will be long and bloody. America will win, but at great cost. And I have a bad feeling that attacking china will be the start of WWIII. Also, China might come in a package--Russia, NK and other Asian countries.

Originally posted by omega1
We cannot underestimate China. If there is a war, it will be long and bloody. America will win, but at great cost. And I have a bad feeling that attacking china will be the start of WWIII. Also, China might come in a package--Russia, NK and other Asian countries.

america got no chance against the big numbers of china.

we got more nukes.....

i see what you mean.....but if it got down to def con 1, the U.S. would win
I would move back to europe if we started a war with china

Originally posted by omega1
we got more nukes.....

more nukes then russia? dont think so, and even four nukes is enuff.

Ah, sry about the misinformation on the Mig. It has been a long time since i enter any kind of forum like this and I got a lot messed up. Anyway, as for the Moskit. China most likely won't use a conventional warhead (nuclear is great at sea, I believe they can also use a neutron since that only blast a couple of miles). But I am pretty sure that a Moskit can do enough damage to take out a carrier, that is not saying actually sinking it but as for doing enough damage to take it out of battle and there are no defenses against it. Also, AS-4 and 6 is faster doesn�t mean it is better. I said clearly that Moskits are Mach2 and sea skimming WITH END GAME MANEUVERS that are designed to evade countermeasures and they are near impossible to jam. Anyway, even if there are defenses, I believe a target only has less than 20 ( I remember less) secs to counter it. I am sure that the U.S. cruise or at least anti-ship missile tech is at least one generation behind the Russians. The destroyers are not a defending platform! It is purely designed to start a NUCLEAR war. I never said they won�t be sunk. Their job is to fire their missiles and die. China is trying to buy two more of the destroyers which have better survivability. Also, the J-10 is a no comparison to the F-22 but I doubt many F-22 will be produce with its such high price tag. Looking at China�s production record, you will see that she cranks out jets in the thousands. Even today with obsolete J-7s and J-8s (which has been upgraded by quite a bit). China might still come out on the winning side (win as not in conquering but win a regional war). I remember reading an article some time ago that kind of proves that 2 (maybe 3) J-8s can take out 1 F-16 or F-18. This might not be great odds but you have consider how many of those jets China have (QUITE a lot). Anyway, the J-10 suits the needs of China very well since China�s main aim is to take over Taiwan and become a regional power before actually challenging the U.S. Which means that the jet won�t be facing any F-22 soon, or else they can just buy a few new Russian jets in testing stages right now. The PLA is getting a lot of money from the Chinese government. Her most likely opponents are F-16 and Mirage 2000. The J-10 is better or at least on par with those two jets. As for the subs, I am sure that it was a kilo class and I believe Kilos are newer than the 70s (not sure). The Typhoon is way bigger than a Kilo and I believe older as well. Anyway, most subs takes years to develop, just cuz it might be a bit old doesn�t mean it is bad. The F-16 has been around for quite a long time. As for the Xia, I admit that sub is a loser. But it is really a testing prototype (I don�t believe the U.S.�s first nuclear sub fared any better). There is strong evidence that China has a new sub or version of Xia that is based on Russian help. It was believed that the prototypes were undergoing sea test during the spy plane incident and that is the reason the planes are there in the first place. The main point of what I wrote is that U.S. won�t be going to war with China anytime soon and doing so might not mean the U.S. is gonna win.

a kilo is a diesel class attack submarine, the submarine in hunt for red october was a nuclear ballistic submarine, go watch the movie, it's a Russian Akula class (NATO designation : Typhoon)

i belive the new kilo subs are called Gepard?

and i thought that the mosquito is a mach 3?

and about the air-defence no body got something like the russian s-300/s-400, and some ships also got them.

First let me say: "My! You guys sure respond fast. IN my old forums I have to wait like 2 days for a reply"

About the "Red October" thing. I am pretty sure it is kilo. Typhoon isn't classified as a super silent atk sub and there is a nuclear version of kilo as well i believe. Anyway, the movie was a book by Tom Clancy and search for . It says that the book is in the Kilo class trilogy which I believe indicates that the sub is a Kilo!

P.S. Might be wrong and plz don't laugh at me. Hurts my feelings

hehe the "kilo class" book was not written by Tom Clancy, and Hunt for Red October is part of the Jack Ryan series, the 'Red October' was a Typhoon class, go watch the movie, go read the book, it is clearly identified as a Typhoon class Nuclear Ballistic Missile submarine, and no, there is no nuclear Kilo, the Kilo, Improved Kilo, and the new Amur class submarines are all diesel electric attack submarines

C that? I told u guys I will get alot of stuff mixed up. After a bit of research I found that it is a Typhoon. I think I got it messed up when I was reading a article on China buying 4 Kilos and might buy some Typhoons and the article said that the Typhoons were the subs in the Red October. As for the book, it says on the COVER that it is by Tom Clancy. Well, some one plz help me out with that.

You might find this interesting.




The primary objective behind the Virginia class (NSSN) was to produce a submarine that offered an approximation of Seawolf performance at significantly reduced cost.
The primary sacrifices were a reduction in warload (from 52 weapons on Seawolf to 22+12 on Virginia) and being more suited to clandestant and coastal operations instead of the blue water concept of the more potent and expensive Seawolf's.
Tthe first of class will be named SSN 774 Virginia and the second SSN 775 Texas.


www.warships1.com...

These boats form the backbone of the U. S. Navy's nuclear-powered attack submarine fleet. Their primary missions are to hunt enemy submarines and surface ships, launch cruise-missile strikes on land-based targets and gather intelligence.
The final 23 submarines of the 62-ship class are known as improved 688s. These are equipped with BSY-1 combat systems, as well as retractable bow planes and hardened sails to break through ice during Arctic operations.

www.warships1.com...

Only a single boat of this class was built before it was decided to go with the larger Los Angeles class. The turbine-electric drive installed in this boat for testing purposes, limits speed to less then 30 knots submerged. This boat has now been decommissioned and scrapped.

www.warships1.com...

The single boat in this class was built to test the new S5G nuclear reactor, which uses convection currents to circulate cooling water through the reactor to the heat exchange.
She still is serving with the Atlantic Fleet as a research vessel.
She will decommission in January of 1999.

www.warships1.com...

Originally named Thresher class, this was changed after the first of the class Thresher was lost while doing test deep dives in Apr./63. These boats had an improved tear drop shape and established the basic design for all later submarines.
Designed from the start with a mission that leaned heavily towards anti-submarine warfare,this was later changed when Harpoon missiles were fitted into these boats.
They have all been discarded.

www.warships1.com...

This submarine was the only one of its kind in 1961. The Halibut had the distinction, for the U.S.N., of being the only nuclear powered submarine that was a launch platform of Regulus I and II missiles. This missile system later proved to be unsatisfactory due to improvements in ballistic missile technology.

www.warships1.com...

Triton was originally conceived as a radar picket submarine able to operate on the surface at high speed, but well ahead of a task force, to provide information concerning enemy air attack, electronic surveillance and to control fighter interception. Triton could then submerge to avoid attack and operate as a fully operational submarine.
To be able to achieve this high speed, Triton was designed with a two reactor propulsion plant (the only United States nuclear submarine ever to have been thus built), a very sharp knife-like bow and given a high reserve buoyancy.
When originally designed, Triton's reactors' output was rated at 34,000 horse power, however she achieved 45,000 horse power on sea trials, and attained a speed of over 30 knots on the surface.

www.warships1.com...

The first series production nuclear attack submarines in the US Navy. These utilized some of the technologies forged in the Nautilus and Seawolf.

www.warships1.com...

The second nuclear powered submarine in the US Navy. The Seawolf used a different reactor then the Nautilus, but this was changed to a style morelike today's submarines in the late 1950's. The Seawolf set many records for nuclear powered submarines that still stand today.

www.warships1.com...

These submarines are the first new top-to-bottom attack submarine design since the early 1960s and will be the fastest, quietest, most heavily armed undersea vessels in the world. This class performs a wide spectrum of crucial military assignments - from underneath the Arctic icepack to littoral regions anywhere in the world.
Their missions include surveillance, intelligence collection, special warfare, cruise missile strike, mine warfare, and anti-submarine and anti-surface ship warfare.

www.warships1.com...

A very successful design that every other submarine design has been compared to. They have now been succeeded by the Los Angeles class and all will be gone by 2001, except Parche which is in use as a research vessel.

www.warships1.com...

The Tullibee was a submarine with many firsts, she was was the first turbo-electric
nuclear sub, a technology that made Tullibee far and away
the quietest SSN in the world until the Lipscomb was launched many years
later. First SSN to have a bow sonar, first to have the torpedo tubes moved back to accomodate the bow sonar. She was designed for a very small crew, with lots of automation. The Thresher/Scorpion disasters forced the crew count up towards 100 making it very cramped. Her small size did make her the stealthiest boat in the world.
The design was an experimental design that really became the basis for future subs.
The "Shark fin" is in reality the PUFFS sonar that she was fitted with for tests

www.warships1.com...

The first series-produced subs with the now familiar tear drop shape. These boats utilized some of the technologies forged in the Nautilus and Seawolf.

www.warships1.com...

This submarine was the United States Navy's first operational nuclear submarine and was used as a test bed for later submarines. Many of the design features of this boat are still featured on today's high tech underseas platforms.
She has been preserved as a museum.

www.warships1.com...

A completely new design of SSBN sharing very little with the previous classes, these are the famed Trident Ballastic Missile Submarines, the largest submarines ever built for the U.S. Navy. These vessels pack more firepower then many countries.

www.warships1.com...

The first Lafayette class boats were deployed in 1963. Essentially a larger and improved version of the previous Ethan Allen class.
The James Madison class are identical except for being fitted with the longer range Polaris A-3 ballistic missile when built.
The Benjamin Franklin's were James Madison's also until the early 1980's when it was decided to upgrade these boats with a quieter propulsion system and longer range more powerful Trident C-4 missiles.

www.warships1.com...

These are in fact James Madison class SSBN's that have been modernized to carry the Trident C-4 ballistic missile and have had a quieter propulsion plant installed.
All have been removed from service, except two that were converted for special operations. These two will be decommissioned in 1999.

www.warships1.com...

Designed from the outset as missile submarines, these were well designed with very deep diving abilities and were quite quiet for their day.
Under the SALT I treaty some of these boats had their missile tubes removed and were redesignated attack submarines (SSN)

www.warships1.com...

Identical in every way to the Lafayette's and originally to be part of that class, these boats were originally fitted with the slightly longer range Polaris A-3 over the A-2 installed in the first 9 boats.
The Benjamin Franklin's were originally of this class but when they were refitted with new propulsion plants and more potent Trident C-4 missiles, their class designation was changed.

www.warships1.com...

George Washington was the US's first submarine to be armed with ballistic missiles. The navy ordered the just-begun attack submarine Scorpion (SSN 589) to be completed as a missile submarine on December 31,1957. This hull was actually cut apart to install the missile compartment. The hull was redesignated SSGN 598 and completed as George Washington.

www.warships1.com...

George Washington was the US's first submarine to be armed with ballistic missiles. The navy ordered the just-begun attack submarine Scorpion (SSN 589) to be completed as a missile submarine on December 31,1957. This hull was actually cut apart to install the missile compartment. The hull was redesignated SSGN 598 and completed as George Washington.

www.warships1.com...



[Edited on 9-5-2003 by barba007]

"Joint Chinese-Israel operation." from the initial post.

Of course, the upside to that may be that it will allow us to shoot them down even quicker, if our lap dog brings it's goodies back to papa...

hi,guys
i am chinese,i visit this forum by chance, i am very happy to disscuss china topics with u,although my english is not so good.

i don't think china want to have war with america,no one wants to fight with the most strong army in the world.
but the question is taiwan,we know, taiwanese want independence,but china mainland can never allow that,because taiwan is part of china since 1400 A.D.
so,the peace situation between taiwan and china mainland will not last for a long time in the future. what will do for the US govt.? preventing taiwan from independence and preventing china mainland from attacking taiwan is most accord with american benefit,because it can get profit from the two sides. but, if china mainland bagin attacking taiwan for some reason(such as taiwan declaring indenpendence),america can do nothing,america never want to have war with china by risking nuclear wars,it doesn't according with america's most benefit.
I explore all notes about this project,some guys are right about china army,i am admire with that, but most of u have no idea with it, I will discuss that with u in the future.

Originally posted by blueye
hi,guys
i am chinese,i visit this forum by chance, i am very happy to disscuss china topics with u,although my english is not so good.

i don't think china want to have war with america,no one wants to fight with the most strong army in the world.

but the question is taiwan,we know, taiwanese want independence,but china mainland can never allow that,because taiwan is part of china since 1400 A.D.
so,the peace situation between taiwan and china mainland will not last for a long time in the future. what will do for the US govt.? preventing taiwan from independence and preventing china mainland from attacking taiwan is most accord with american benefit,because it can get profit from the two sides. but, if china mainland bagin attacking taiwan for some reason(such as taiwan declaring indenpendence),america can do nothing,america never want to have war with china by risking nuclear wars,it doesn't according with america's most benefit.
I explore all notes about this project,some guys are right about china army,i am admire with that, but most of u have no idea with it, I will discuss that with u in the future.

Hello Blueye.
To my knowledge China do not have advanced landing craft in order to attempt an invasion of Taiwan. I think if the Chinese us Paratroopers, they will not be too succesful. They need alot of hardware, like tanks etc.
What are your thoughts?

they got zubr, no?

China's amphibious capabilities couldn't take over Fiji

Well, the Chinese can bomb the hell out of Taiwan first. If all the Taiwanese military is reduced to nothing. THe chinese can get onto Taiwan with anything that floats.

Likely scenario:

1) Chinese blockade
2) If Taiwan doesn't budge then raining missiles.
If the Chinese commanders are nice enough they will only use conventional warheads and EMPS to take out the radars. If not, it will be a hell load of neutrons (nukes that cover very small area and leaves infrustructure intact).
3) If still Taiwan doesn't budge, which I believe is not possible unless they are all a bunch of idiots. China will use their newly acquired airpower to bomb the hell of the island.

IF U.S. intervenes:

1) Chinese blockade of Taiwan and warning
2) U.S. doesn't listen.
3) Sends two carrier groups to Taiwan
4) China uses her Moskits to try to take the carriers out of battle or give a last warning.
5) Raining missiles, carrier defence overwhelmed
6) U.S. kisses goodbye to her two carrier groups
7) IF the missiles fail, there is still the neutrons which works very nicely at sea. Dunno about this but China might get 2 free carrier groups since I belive neutrons only kills anything biological.