China Release New Fighter. The J-10.

We already defeated Iraq, we are now having problems with foreign fighters who just want to kill a few americans. Saddam is gone and will never come back.

The J-10 [the export version being designated F-10] is a multi-role single-engine and single-seat tactical fighter, with its combat radius of 1,000 km. It is designed for point defensive warfare with performance generatlly matching aircraft such as the Mirage 2000 deployed by Taiwan. Apparently, Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel�s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

The acquisition of Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, demonstrates a lack of confidence in domestic industrial capabilities. China�s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China�s interceptor inventory.
It is unclear what specific technologies and systems Israel has provided, although it is reported that the Jian-10's radar and fire-control system is the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock onto the four most-threatening targets for destruction. Some experts believe that the Israeli contribution will focus on avionics and radar, with Russia supplying the engines. In December 1991, US intelligence officials announced that Israel was planning to open a government coordinated and sponsored "arms office" in the PRC. In light of what the Israelis have to offer, and what the Chinese need, it was most likely that a transfer of avionics and other technologies developed in the Lavi program would ensue, since there is a void in the Chinese avionics and fire control system capability due to the 1989 termination of a US/Chinese program in response to Tienanmen square.


China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment. However, the Lavi project had included many elements that Israel could not develop by itself, and China cannot obtain these key technologies from the United States, which has consequently substantially increased the technical difficulties of the F10. In addition, there are certain difference between the Israeli and Chinese requirements for the aircraft. Since Israel already already had fighters such as the F-15, its primary requirement for the Lavi was short-range air support and interdiction, with a secondary mission of air superiority. In contrast, the Chinese Air Force is interested in replacing its large fleet of outmoded J-6 and J-7 fighters, for which air superiority capabilities remain a top priority while the air-to-ground attack capability is of secondary importance.
Since neither China nor Israel is capable of developing the propulsion system required by the J-10, in 1991 China acquired the AI31F turbofan engine from Russia for incorporation into the J-10 fighter. This engine is also used in the Su-27 air superiority fighter that Chinese acquired from Russia. The performance of the AL31F engine is significantly better than that of the American PW1120 originally slated for the Lavi, it may be anticipated that the performance of the J-10 will be accordingly enhanced

Originally posted by roniii259
I wouldnt waste my time on this subject beccause China is bluffing. There would never be a war between the us and china becasuse both would be severily wounded enconomically. this would reverberate around the entire world and lead to another stone age. in strategy, the us and china take different approaches that are just as effective. dont continue argueing its just a waste of time

as a Chinese i strongly agree with u, it's strange many of u want to see the war between US and China happen....hum, i think most Chinese people think u Americans like peace before they saw these posts, at least from the films u made....i am a Chinese student in UK, from my point of view, 90% of foreigners (include westerner and some asian country) do not know China much, seeing is believing, why not u go to China and have a look before some of u show ur opinions here? the nationality of Chinese people are not offensive. why we building Great Wall instead of huge army when our civilization was the most advanced in the world? i guess this is what i want to say here. i read every post here and thanks for your guys, very educational and impressive~


[Edited on 17-3-2004 by taobo33]

[Edited on 17-3-2004 by taobo33]

It's not the Chinese culture that's got them worried, it's the old "Reds Under The Bed." It seems to Americans are still terrified of Communism - you only have to read some of their paranoid right-wing "magazines" to understand that. I think that Chinese culture is great (discounting foot binding, which thankfully no longer occurs) and it's got a lot to offer the rest of the world. Sun Tzu's Art of War is required reading for many military colleges the world over. I like the way the ultimate warrior is described... he who never has to fight. The US could easily have that status. Other countries have had it for ages...

The J-10 looks awesome i like the look it has like a sleek look to it really cool when i saw the picture its kinda good looking. Might be my 3rd favorite aircraft. Thanks for the post

[Edited on 17-3-2004 by ShadowMan]

Originally posted by Lampyridae
It's not the Chinese culture that's got them worried, it's the old "Reds Under The Bed."

We americans are distrustful of the chinese government because of its human right's violations. china is a great country and culture, but their government pilfers its citizens and should be overthrown. many advances in the western world like child labor laws, minimum wage, and even the freedom of speech are not present in China, which is a real shame for such a great nation.

I've just come across this thread, and quite frankly, I'm appalled by the sheer arrogance of many of the people here.

I'm far more worried about what America will do next than I ever would be about China.

Originally posted by Stoo
I've just come across this thread, and quite frankly, I'm appalled by the sheer arrogance of many of the people here.

I'm far more worried about what America will do next than I ever would be about China.

The really sad bit about this is that they have been so programed to think inside the box that they may not beable to breakout of this mold.

I personally see America as the greatest threat to world peace....since other nations can only yell and scream the US actually goes out and bombs them. And no country has the power projection capability to match them...mind you its in a constant state of decline so it may only be a matter of time?

[Edited on 1-4-2004 by psteel]

Yeah, I'm afraid I have to agree with you. The U.S. under Clinton was doing a great job... now, it's become the Bad Guy. As for China's human rights violations, I can easily think of any number of U.S. "allies" that have their own fair share. On the other side of the Atlantic, Europe seems to be doing a good job - cutting greenhouse gas emissions, fighting things out in courtrooms as opposed to battlefields. The Old World still has a few things to teach the New.

World War III line up:


=========================
Britain
The United States
Italy
Japan
Poland
and other little US puppet regimes

V.S.
==========================
China
Russia
Pakistan
and other third world countries

Neutral:


Wanna a nuclear winter?

It is fun reading these Australian mad men's posting. As a New Yorker, it is shocked to see Australians hate China so much and want us, US, to fight and defeat China with F-22 or even nuke. There is a why.

China is constantly gobbling up the wolrd's market in the low end and starting in the mid level. This kicks Australian and other similar nations out of the market. And little by little, Australia becomes or will become the raw material supplier - a 3rd world country. The globalization and free trade pushed by the boss, US, helps US gobbling up the high end world market. Un-intensionally, perhaps, China is getting the others. In the past, you need a world war to get this market, just like Japan did in WII. The world economic picture is like this. The tanks is the US followed by the troopers, the Chinese. Australians like the Iraqis and Al Quatas running like ratts. Keeping the Chinese as the troopers, not tankers in the US infantory conquering the world is of interest of The United States. I will make sure my senators doing the right things, no nuke after which you, Australians, can move up as tankers and the boss of the world.

Poor Australians, anything else you can sell? Maybe in Sickneed(I am sorry if I spell the city wrongly), the garden-like houses and the blondes shaking their xxx on the table and being tipped by the "chicom" bosses with the money they steal in the nations corruption.

Ok here is why I think the entire F22 vs J-10 debate is pointless:

THE ONLY PLACE THEY WILL EVER FIGHT IS IN JOINT MILITARY WARGAMES!!

The United States is NEVER going to go to war with China for three really glaring reasons:

1: In case you didn't notice, the United States isn't exactly a manufacturing powerhouse anymore, we need China to build our goods. If we dropped our trade with them in preparation for a war we would see an economic panic that would make the Great Depression look like a correction. No one on the planet can match the Chinese production, not even close. Also even if we could buy from someone else the cost differences would be so massive that the economy would still tailspin out of control.

2: The Chinese fund the United States! We have a reccord national debit and the money to keep all our little wars and tax cuts to the rich has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Chinese banks. So even if we had a leader so posessed as to go to war with China, no one would fund it! There is not another country on the planet that would like to see the massive losses that a war between two superpowers would cause. There is just nothing to gain from it.

3: The Chinese are allied with the European Union. We would have no allies in a war with China, except maybe Taiwan, and they have a military that could stand up to Chinese pounding for about an hour tops. The Europeans would fight us tooth and nail at the UN diplomatic table before we could even lift an M-16 against China, and then some might even join with China in any military campaign, especially if it's defensive.

So if the United States wants to go to war with China, whatever it's your economic/political/military funeral. I'll be perfectly happy sitting in Toronto, watching the fireworks from across lake Ontario.

The main point is that compairing the American fighters to Chinese fighters is like saying that my dad could beat up your dad. It's never going to happen and I think that the United States war culture is starting to rub off on its citizens. China, along with its buddy the European Union are two countries that the United States can't touch, however much Bush would want to. We need them, and likewise they need us. The big question though is how much longer will the world need the United States?

www.aeronautics.ru...

Originally posted by urbanmastermind
Ok here is why I think the entire F22 vs J-10 debate is pointless:

THE ONLY PLACE THEY WILL EVER FIGHT IS IN JOINT MILITARY WARGAMES!!

The United States is NEVER going to go to war with China for three really glaring reasons:

You don't know much about the US-Taiwan relationship do you?

1: In case you didn't notice, the United States isn't exactly a manufacturing powerhouse anymore, we need China to build our goods. If we dropped our trade with them in preparation for a war we would see an economic panic that would make the Great Depression look like a correction. No one on the planet can match the Chinese production, not even close. Also even if we could buy from someone else the cost differences would be so massive that the economy would still tailspin out of control.

Not so - China is more dependent on the US economy then the US is on China. There are dozens of countries that could fill the production gap - there is only 1 country that commands 20% of the total world economy In fact, if there were a war with China, the US would simply put up a blockade and starve the Chinese into submission.

2: The Chinese fund the United States! We have a reccord national debit and the money to keep all our little wars and tax cuts to the rich has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Chinese banks. So even if we had a leader so posessed as to go to war with China, no one would fund it! There is not another country on the planet that would like to see the massive losses that a war between two superpowers would cause. There is just nothing to gain from it.

You really don't have an idea of how the US economy works do you? Banks in China DO NOT pay for US taxes - TAX PAYERS DO! Debt is just that DEBT. It is money owed and is backed by the US economy.

3: The Chinese are allied with the European Union. We would have no allies in a war with China, except maybe Taiwan, and they have a military that could stand up to Chinese pounding for about an hour tops. The Europeans would fight us tooth and nail at the UN diplomatic table before we could even lift an M-16 against China, and then some might even join with China in any military campaign, especially if it's defensive.

Bull #! Ever hear of a little thing called NATO? No European country would back China over the US. They would actively protest the war at worst. Why would any country want to get in the way of the US? If they won't get involved in Iraq because they are scared, WHY IN THE HELL WOULD THEY FIGHT THE GREATEST MILITARY POWER THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN? As for your comment about China taking Taiwan in an hour - again, you do not know what you are talking about.

So if the United States wants to go to war with China, whatever it's your economic/political/military funeral. I'll be perfectly happy sitting in Toronto, watching the fireworks from across lake Ontario.

Just political buddy - and in case you haven't noticed, the US does not really care how we are thought of, because, well - we don't need to. We run this world. We call the shots. Doesn't make it right, but thats the way it is. The US can do what it wants, when it wants, and all we will get is some bitching from nations like yours.

The main point is that compairing the American fighters to Chinese fighters is like saying that my dad could beat up your dad. It's never going to happen and I think that the United States war culture is starting to rub off on its citizens. China, along with its buddy the European Union are two countries that the United States can't touch, however much Bush would want to. We need them, and likewise they need us. The big question though is how much longer will the world need the United States?

First off, war culture???? No one here WANTS war. We go to war to protect our selves. In case you haven't noticed, the # hole that is the middle east detests us because we are "infedels." I'm sorry, but we will not sit by and watch terrorists train to kill thousands of our people. As for your statement that the US "couldn't touch" China or the EU - you are wrong. If either threatened our way of life, realize that unless they were wearing 2 billion sunblock they'd all be dead - get it? The US does not want war. The US does not LIKE war. We DO however protect ourselves - preemptively if need be. As for how long the rest of the world needs us - as long as any of those countries want to keep their economy and want to combat terrorism rather then bow down to a few Islamic people who hate everyone who is not like them.

the point made about the chinese-american relationship is good. there is no doubt that there will be NO war between those two countries in near future. see this link for chinese trade with the usa www.chinatoday.com...
secondly, the demographic and ethinic development in the us of a has to be considered. such ignorant republican wont be elected in 50 years time for example. there will be more voters originating from nowadays ethnic minorities.

question: who has threatened whose way of living? the USA were the first to get into other peoples business...what the hel was the usa doing in vietnam? korea? somalia? afghanistan?...in iraq? both times. yes. there is a threat coming from those copuntries. ok. i agree. but why? do you seriously believe that those iraqies for example, are just a bunch of ignorant people who like killing? no. they have families as well. but the us need oil. money. power. that are the reasons why we have terrorist attacks nowadays. BEHIND EVERY ACTION THERE IS A REASON. those people believe in the koran. they believe in their holy land. yes. that holy land which the us, uk and israel took away from the palastinians in 1948/49. they have their way of living. polygamic families. 'oppressing' females, etc. thats the western perspective. there is different ways of living. other ones than the christian approach. we have to accept that. everybody has to. otherwise there is war. like it is now. ok. we have superior weapons. yes we have better intelligence. yes. we are better equipped. probably better trained. BUT: terrorists rely on small 'attacks', assaults, whatever. even if they manage to strike once a year 'only'. they win. because we will live in horror. being aware that some killer or whoever might be out there everyday, bombing trains in madrid, flying planes into the wtc. it is impossible to win a war on terror with the means bush s administration is currently approaching this problem.

Originally posted by Nucleartomato
the point made about the chinese-american relationship is good. there is no doubt that there will be NO war between those two countries in near future. see this link for chinese trade with the usa www.chinatoday.com...
secondly, the demographic and ethinic development in the us of a has to be considered. such ignorant republican wont be elected in 50 years time for example. there will be more voters originating from nowadays ethnic minorities.

question: who has threatened whose way of living? the USA were the first to get into other peoples business...what the hel was the usa doing in vietnam? korea? somalia? afghanistan?...in iraq? both times. yes. there is a threat coming from those copuntries. ok. i agree. but why? do you seriously believe that those iraqies for example, are just a bunch of ignorant people who like killing? no. they have families as well. but the us need oil. money. power. that are the reasons why we have terrorist attacks nowadays. BEHIND EVERY ACTION THERE IS A REASON. those people believe in the koran. they believe in their holy land. yes. that holy land which the us, uk and israel took away from the palastinians in 1948/49. they have their way of living. polygamic families. 'oppressing' females, etc. thats the western perspective. there is different ways of living. other ones than the christian approach. we have to accept that. everybody has to. otherwise there is war. like it is now. ok. we have superior weapons. yes we have better intelligence. yes. we are better equipped. probably better trained. BUT: terrorists rely on small 'attacks', assaults, whatever. even if they manage to strike once a year 'only'. they win. because we will live in horror. being aware that some killer or whoever might be out there everyday, bombing trains in madrid, flying planes into the wtc. it is impossible to win a war on terror with the means bush s administration is currently approaching this problem.

I agree that there most likely will not be any US/China war. As for what we were doing in the places you mentioned....'Nam - protecting our Ally - you see the US backs up it's word. Korea - again, PROTECTING OUR ALLIES FROM INVASION. Somalia - UN peace keeping, because when the UN does something, it really means that the US does it for them. Afghan/Iraq - I believe you said there was a threat.... Do I believe that Iraqi's are ignorant.... Yes and no. They have been under the rule of a dictator and practice the most rigid, untolerant religion in the world, so yes - I believe that they are kind of ignorant. Not stupid, but ignorant.

OMG - are you actually taking their (terrorists) side? They practice the koran bla bla bla. Well - if the bible said to kill everyone on our holly land (take a guess where that is) would that be ok? I mean - thats OUR holy land too. Maybe because muslims do not believe that Jesus is our salvation we should kill all musims.

You say if they get off 1 attack a year we will live in fear - SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! I do not live in fear! Never have, never will. And I will tell you something - if they continue to attack the western world, Iraq won't be the only country the US (or the rest of the world for that matter) will be involved in. If there are more attacks or bigger attacks you can bet that the US will go in.

Another thing - do you really think that if the US simply moves out of Iraq that terrorists will stop? Tell me you do not actually believe this.... The reason they attack us is because EVERYONE ELSE IS AN INFEDEL! Seriously - if you are not a muslim, you are EVIL in the eyes of God!!! They really believe this!

I agree that there most likely will not be any US/China war. As for what we were doing in the places you mentioned....'Nam - protecting our Ally - you see the US backs up it's word. Korea - again, PROTECTING OUR ALLIES FROM INVASION. Somalia - UN peace keeping, because when the UN does something, it really means that the US does it for them. Afghan/Iraq - I believe you said there was a threat.... Do I believe that Iraqi's are ignorant.... Yes and no. They have been under the rule of a dictator and practice the most rigid, untolerant religion in the world, so yes - I believe that they are kind of ignorant. Not stupid, but ignorant.

OMG - are you actually taking their (terrorists) side? They practice the koran bla bla bla. Well - if the bible said to kill everyone on our holly land (take a guess where that is) would that be ok? I mean - thats OUR holy land too. Maybe because muslims do not believe that Jesus is our salvation we should kill all musims.

You say if they get off 1 attack a year we will live in fear - SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! I do not live in fear! Never have, never will. And I will tell you something - if they continue to attack the western world, Iraq won't be the only country the US (or the rest of the world for that matter) will be involved in. If there are more attacks or bigger attacks you can bet that the US will go in.

Another thing - do you really think that if the US simply moves out of Iraq that terrorists will stop? Tell me you do not actually believe this.... The reason they attack us is because EVERYONE ELSE IS AN INFEDEL! Seriously - if you are not a muslim, you are EVIL in the eyes of God!!! They really believe this!


vietnam....backing up our ally...well, the only reason why the usa went in there was because the south was fighting the communist northern part which was supported by the soviet union.
..you say that when the un does something it really means something to the us...really? why did the us not care about a un agreement on the attack on iraq? why did they just go in there if they really did care about the un? even the reasons for the iraq war mostly wrong. no weapons of mass destruction and any proof for their existence were found. ok. the only reasonable reason for moving into iraq was the replacement of hussain, but this could have been achieved otherwise and debated in the un security council.

i am happy for you that you are not living in fear. neither am i. the only problem is the effect of such attacks on the economy and the stock market. furthermore you and me are not the majority of the population. it s all about the general perception of the population and surely it will differ to ours.

i am not taking a terrorists side. definitly not. but i think it is impossible to control everybodys thinking in the islamic world. even with great military force it is nearly impossible to indoctrinate western thinking into those peoples minds. even if, there should not be any need to.
i mena...surely you must have seen all those documentaries...kids are being tought from their very childhood that if they die in combat or some military action, they will die as a hero. this applies to males. i dont know the exact number of males in the arabic world. but it certainly is in three digit millions. thats a great human resource potential to teach that killing and murdering is bad. therefore the only obvious solution to the problem is to leave them and let them life their life. remove all troops from arabic countries. stop all help. and let them live their life. without any western influence if they dont want to.

You do realize that in Nam, we had am alliance witht he south just as Russia had one with the north. The difference was that they attacked the South. In fact, the reason why the war was not over in less then a year was that we WERE NOT allowed to attack the north.

I said that when the UN does something, that means that the US has to take the action. The US BY FAR provides the most funding and man power. This does NOT mean that the US must do what the UN tells them. Far from it.

As for pulling out of the middle east - they will still hate us. As long as we are buying their oil they will hate us. As long as we do not "follow Allah" they will hate us. It is not simply about leaving there.

buying their oil? the us introduced many AMERICAN oil companies to iraq...the usa is not really buying the oil from iraq. at least not the majority of it. so what is your solution to avoiding further terrorist attacks?