some questions that help reason the whole thing out

1 was eden in heaven or on earth?
2 was adam created mortal or immortal?
3 if adam had not sinned, would he have died?
4 if he had lived forever, would you call that immortality?
5 on account of sin he did die, doesnt that prove that he wasnt immortal?
6 is there any difference between eternal life and immortality?
7 can a person live eternally and yet not be immortal?
8 if adam could not go to heaven without dying, and could not die without sinning, wouldnt that prove that sin and death are a blessing to the human race?
9 did adam lose an earthly or a heavenly home?
10 if jesus came to restore that which was lost by adam's fall, what will be restored?
11 was adam a single individual or two individuals in one?
12 if composed of 2 parts, body and soul, which was adam?
13 which part was it that sinned, soul or body?
14 which was the responsible part that could think, feel and act?
15 if it was the soul that sinned, why did the body have to suffer?
16 if it was the body that sinned, why did the soul have to suffer?
17 in gen 2:17, which part of adam did god speak to?
18 what does the word "thou" refer to in gen 2:17?
19 if you said it refers to the soul, then what does the word "thou" refer to in gen 3:19?
20 how many different penalties did adam have pronounced upon him?
21 was one pronounced upon the soul and a different one against the body?
22 if so, explain exek 18:4 and ecc 9:5,10.
23 is the penalty mentioned in gen 2:17 a different one from gen 3:19?
24 if only one penalty, what is it?
25 does the bible say it was death or the burning of endless life in hell?
26 suppose that after adam had sinned no savior had come, where would the human race spend eternity?
27 did jesus really die on the tree, or was it only his body that died?
28 if jesus had an immortal soul that didnt die, and that immortal soul was the real jesus, then we have been misinformed about jesus dying for sinners. why not say that the house that jesus lived in died to save the house that man lives in, but the real jesus didnt die and the real man isnt saved.
29 if jesus' soul went to hell and didnt see corruption, where did his body go?
30 does the bible not teach that he was dead for 3 days?
31 if christ possessed a soul, why does the bible say he was resurrected a spirit?
32 if he was resurrected a spirit, then what is a soul?
33 is not the soul the same as the body or person? (gen 2:7)
34 what then is the meaning of the resurrection?
35 if man possesses a soul, what then happened to all those who lived from the time of adam to the time of christ?
36 if the prophets from the time of abel to john the baptist, being righteous in the sight of god did not go to heaven, where did they go?
37 did they go to burn in hell, or does not the bible teach that they are dead in hell, that is the grave?
38 when jesus raised lazarus from the dead, where did lazarus come from?
39 if he was in heaven, purgatory or burning hell, why did he never mention it to anyone?
40 why did paul teach "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH?" (1cor 15:26 also rev 20:14)

[edited for spelling errors]




[edit on 25-7-2008 by miriam0566]

29 if Jesus' soul went to hell and didn't see corruption, where did his body go?

When Jesus was raised, there was not a body left behind.
His original body was brought back to life.
Mary saw a man near the tomb and talked to him.
She assumed it was someone who would have been expected to be there.
As soon as he spoke to her, she recognized him as Jesus.
So, there was something about him that carried over from his previous personality that was recognizable as Jesus.

1 cor 15:[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

31 if christ possessed a soul, why does the bible say he was resurrected a spirit?

jesus had to have been resurrected in spirit form otherwise he could not ascend to heaven. its probable that the body he had after his resurrection was materialized much in the same way angels did in the time of noah.

My religion teaches something called "conditional immortality".
To explain that, Adam was not created to die.
If he had not sinned, he would be alive today.
But, his being alive would not be based on some inherent quality of his being.
It would be just that there was not any reason for him to die.
The only thing that is, in essence, immortal is the spirit that comes from God and returns back to God, after we die.

you and me actually agree alot on this point except for the terminology.

if a person is designed to live forever, that doesnt necessarily make him immortal

immortal means unable to die. God almighty is immortal for example. he cannot die, no matter what.

adam showed that he wasnt immortal by dying.

Obviously, Jesus had special abilities that he did not have before or maybe not.
There is the time a mob tried to push Jesus off a cliff.
Somehow, he became invisible and was able to walk right through their midst.
Was he showing the same ability when he appeared in the upper room?
I do not know where, exactly you are trying to go with this.
(I feel kind of bad that no one else has commented on your points in your OP.)
Like you said, I think there is a big similarity between what we think about some of this and I do not want to look like I am attacking you over just a misunderstanding. (about the spirit form thing)
When Mary saw Jesus at the empty tomb, he told her he had not yet ascended to his Father.
I do not know if we can make a correlation between how Jesus was raised and how we will be resurrected.
John said he was in the Spirit when he was shown visions of heaven, but he describes himself doing things that indicated that he had some kind of body.

It looks like you went to a lot of trouble making your OP and I feel bad if I am ruining the format.
I think it is great that you work hard at this and seem to have a mission.
I do not want to derail your work.
It just seems that right now there is a lack of interest in serious theological discussion, on this forum.

I agree that the nature of mankind is important to understand, in order to understand what the resurrection is.
My opinion on the subject, to repeat myself, is that Man was not created to die, therefore no provision was made for what happens to the person, when they die.
We know that Jesus was with God, from the beginning.
The provision that God had for sin, was not some out-of-body afterlife, but Jesus.
Jesus is the answer to how God deals with sin and death,
not endless flames or floating in clouds.
It makes no sense to me to think God would create man to live in a garden and for us to end up anywhere else, than back in the garden.

This, to me, is Adam and Eve, after being kicked out of the Garden.
They looked forward to one of their descendants righting the wrong they did and being restored to their proper place, in the future.



[edit on 25-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

1 was eden in heaven or on earth?
Neither. It's in paradise.

2 was adam created mortal or immortal?
Adam was created with the ability to experience either.

3 if adam had not sinned, would he have died?
He would not have died had he chose to eat from the tree of life.

4 if he had lived forever, would you call that immortality?
Living forever would imply immortality.

5 on account of sin he did die, doesnt that prove that he wasnt immortal? Adam was created with the ability to experience either.

6 is there any difference between eternal life and immortality?
Yes. Eternal life is proof of who Jesus is for the here and now. Immortality is for those who are allowed to eat from the tree of life.

7 can a person live eternally and yet not be immortal?
Yes.

8 if adam could not go to heaven without dying, and could not die without sinning, wouldnt that prove that sin and death are a blessing to the human race?
Had Eve and Adam chose the correct tree, they would not have died. It's never a blessing to be seperated from God.

9 did adam lose an earthly or a heavenly home?
He lost a home in paradise.

10 if jesus came to restore that which was lost by adam's fall, what will be restored?
The right to eat from the tree of life.

11 was adam a single individual or two individuals in one?
12 if composed of 2 parts, body and soul, which was adam?
13 which part was it that sinned, soul or body?
14 which was the responsible part that could think, feel and act?
15 if it was the soul that sinned, why did the body have to suffer?
16 if it was the body that sinned, why did the soul have to suffer?
17 in gen 2:17, which part of adam did god speak to?
18 what does the word "thou" refer to in gen 2:17?
19 if you said it refers to the soul, then what does the word "thou" refer to in gen 3:19?
20 how many different penalties did adam have pronounced upon him?
21 was one pronounced upon the soul and a different one against the body?
22 if so, explain exek 18:4 and ecc 9:5,10.
23 is the penalty mentioned in gen 2:17 a different one from gen 3:19?
24 if only one penalty, what is it?

25 does the bible say it was death or the burning of endless life in hell?
Adam died plain & simple. He & Eve made the wrong choice. The soul and the body are anchored together with the breath of life, that God gave. People need to reach out and take what is freely given them.

26 suppose that after adam had sinned no savior had come, where would the human race spend eternity?
Depends if you are a Jew or a Gentile.

27 did jesus really die on the tree, or was it only his body that died?
Jesus died on that cross. He had the power to lay his life down and to take
it up again. God gave him the power to do this. Did Jesus want to experience physical death - hell no. He even prayed that the cup would pass from him, if it was God's will. But I can assure you, God's ways are not our ways and God just wanted him to finish this work and come back and be with him. A way has been made and God wants all of us there. Scripture supports that few find eternal life during their physical life because they fail to find the narrow path. Everyone has the same chance, one in two to find it.

29 if jesus' soul went to hell and didnt see corruption, where did his body go?
This is from Paul, right? I don't dwell on his writings, for I found everything I need in Christ's own words.

30 does the bible not teach that he was dead for 3 days?
Yes.

31 if christ possessed a soul, why does the bible say he was resurrected a spirit?
The taboo books that were left out in the Bible suggest, the soul, the body and the spirit are three seperate things. An example would be Mary Magdelen's gospel, where she saw Jesus in a day vision and she asked him what part sees this vision, the soul or the spirit. Though the lesson is incomplete because of missing text (around 8 pages) he tells her that it's from neither place but from somewhre in between the two.
32 if he was resurrected a spirit, then what is a soul?

33 is not the soul the same as the body or person? (gen 2:7)
They are anchored together, with the breath of life. But a person must bring forth, that which is able to help them or they will die.

34 what then is the meaning of the resurrection?
It is for those who hear the voice of the lamb. They follow him where ever he goes. It is also for the multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth, the ones who died before he came.

35 if man possesses a soul, what then happened to all those who lived from the time of adam to the time of christ?
Some are in paradise. The thief on the cross. Moses & Elijah were both at the transfiguration, at least in Spirit form. Physical resurrection is reserved for the last day.

36 if the prophets from the time of abel to john the baptist, being righteous in the sight of god did not go to heaven, where did they go?
Again, paradise and heaven are two seperate places. Moses and Elijah were at Christ's transfiguration, so they would at least be in what was known as Abraham's Bosom. Good and bad Jew would either be in this bosom, spiritually, or in the place of gloom and hot to the tounge. Christ has all the keys and what he opens no one can shut. When John is shown heaven, there are twenty four elders sitting around God's throne. Knowing Moses and Elijah were at the transformation should be a big hint, as to who some of these people are.

37 did they go to burn in hell, or does not the bible teach that they are dead in hell, that is the grave?
Salvation is of the Jews. Pre-Jesus gentiles are just dust in the earth. I don't even know, that they will awake the last day.

38 when jesus raised lazarus from the dead, where did lazarus come from?
Since he was Jewish, more than likely from Abraham's Bosom.

39 if he was in heaven, purgatory or burning hell, why did he never mention it to anyone?
I don't think very much is recorded on what Lazarus said or didn't say.

40 why did paul teach "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH?" (1cor 15:26 also rev 20:14)
Paul again. I'll work from Rev. Death is thrown into fire, so it is far removed from the lving, that remain, after the judgement. Will death be refined? I doubt it. Will it turn to ash and eventually smolder out? I don't know and I don't intend on finding out.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

I just want to add a couple things.

Miriam - do you remember when one of Christ's disciples told him, that his Father had died and he needed to go bury him? What did Jesus say to him? He said let the dead bury the dead. Being dead can have two meanings. There is physical death and there is being dead spiritually.

Sometimes, I feel like whatever happened in Eden, needs to stay in Eden.

The known facts are few, in my opinion.

1. Two trees/two fruits.

2. Dont eat - you'll die.

3. Eat - you won't die.

4. They ate.

5. Went from shameless to shameful in 0.2.

6. God said, now they've become like us knowing right from wrong.

7. Kicked out with naked shame.

Naked shame is again mentioned in Revelations, in the letter to Laodicea. People are urged to buy gold from Jesus, that is refined in fire, so they can be given white clothes, to cover their shameful nakedness.

A wedding is about to take place and those that don't have the proper attire on will be made to leave. His words are thick in symbology to everything Jewish - including the Jewish Wedding.

Hope you feel better.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
1 was eden in heaven or on earth?
Neither. It's in paradise.

gen 1:[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

2:[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[10] And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
[11] The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
[12] And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
[13] And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
[14] And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

there is no reason to believe the paradise wasnt on earth.

2 was adam created mortal or immortal?
Adam was created with the ability to experience either.

immortality means "exempt from death" (m-w.com)

adam sinned and subsequently died. he was not exempt, and therefore not immortal.

3 if adam had not sinned, would he have died?
He would not have died had he chose to eat from the tree of life.

tree of life wasnt a necessity until after he sinned. there is nothing in the bible that says he would have died if he hadnt sinned.

4 if he had lived forever, would you call that immortality?
Living forever would imply immortality.

5 on account of sin he did die, doesnt that prove that he wasnt immortal? Adam was created with the ability to experience either.

yes but his death proves he wasnt

6 is there any difference between eternal life and immortality?
Yes. Eternal life is proof of who Jesus is for the here and now. Immortality is for those who are allowed to eat from the tree of life.

logical conclusion would be that eternal life is where someone lives forever but is able to die, and immortality is when someone lives forever but are unable to die.

7 can a person live eternally and yet not be immortal?
Yes.

8 if adam could not go to heaven without dying, and could not die without sinning, wouldnt that prove that sin and death are a blessing to the human race?
Had Eve and Adam chose the correct tree, they would not have died. It's never a blessing to be seperated from God.

true, it is never a blessing, but they were lied to, it was never a choice between one tree or the other.

9 did adam lose an earthly or a heavenly home?
He lost a home in paradise.

it is an important point. they lost an earthly home.

10 if jesus came to restore that which was lost by adam's fall, what will be restored?
The right to eat from the tree of life.

if humans lost life eternal in an earthly paradise, wouldnt it be logical that that is what jesus was to restore?

29 if jesus' soul went to hell and didnt see corruption, where did his body go?
This is from Paul, right? I don't dwell on his writings, for I found everything I need in Christ's own words.

why not? luke testified that paul was a true disciple of christ

31 if christ possessed a soul, why does the bible say he was resurrected a spirit?
The taboo books that were left out in the Bible suggest, the soul, the body and the spirit are three seperate things. An example would be Mary Magdelen's gospel, where she saw Jesus in a day vision and she asked him what part sees this vision, the soul or the spirit. Though the lesson is incomplete because of missing text (around 8 pages) he tells her that it's from neither place but from somewhre in between the two.

but in the questions you didnt respond to you didnt answer which component is the person. for example, if "adam" was the soul, then why did his body die for the sins of the soul? if adam is the body, than what is the soul?

jesus was a soul. soul and the body are one (inseparable), if jesus died and his soul separated and when off somewhere, why would he need to be resurrected as a spirit?

33 is not the soul the same as the body or person? (gen 2:7)
They are anchored together, with the breath of life. But a person must bring forth, that which is able to help them or they will die.

but again that teaching isnt in harmony with what the bible says. adam was created and he became a soul. when the body dies, so does the soul.

34 what then is the meaning of the resurrection?
It is for those who hear the voice of the lamb. They follow him where ever he goes. It is also for the multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth, the ones who died before he came.

yes, but what is the meaning of it.

35 if man possesses a soul, what then happened to all those who lived from the time of adam to the time of christ?
Some are in paradise. The thief on the cross. Moses & Elijah were both at the transfiguration, at least in Spirit form. Physical resurrection is reserved for the last day.

why would they be in paradise? wasnt paradise on earth?

37 did they go to burn in hell, or does not the bible teach that they are dead in hell, that is the grave?
Salvation is of the Jews. Pre-Jesus gentiles are just dust in the earth. I don't even know, that they will awake the last day.

then who are the unrighteous in the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous?

38 when jesus raised lazarus from the dead, where did lazarus come from?
Since he was Jewish, more than likely from Abraham's Bosom.

you do realize that the illustration of the beggar lazarus was different from the lazarus that was jesus' friend right?

If paradise is here or was here take me to the flaming sword and cherubim, that guard it's entrance.

You can't. Why not?

Yes, I do know the differences between the two Lazarus' but why is there any reason to believe the concepts are different of where their spirits were in death? Just because Lazarus of the tomb didn't write a thesis on the afterlife doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
If paradise is here or was here take me to the flaming sword and cherubim, that guard it's entrance.

You can't. Why not?

simple, the garden was done away with. it doesnt exist anymore. every description from the bible indicates that eden was a garden on earth. there is nothing to say that it was somewhere else.

there is also nothing to say that the cherub would be there forever.

Yes, I do know the differences between the two Lazarus' but why is there any reason to believe the concepts are different of where their spirits were in death? Just because Lazarus of the tomb didn't write a thesis on the afterlife doesn't mean it didn't exist.

because the parable of Lazarus the beggar wasnt an illustration of the afterlife.

[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

the parable of the beggar was to illustrate the change with the new covenant. once jesus laid down his life, the pharisees would no long find themselves in favor.

lazarus was dead. nonexistent, which is in harmony with eccl 9:5,10, which is why there was no mention of the afterlife. (infact dont you think that would have been something important to the disciples who witnessed the resurrection? at least important enough to write something down if in fact there was an afterlife)

Acording to the church that I belong to, this is what we believe about the "Garden of Eden""

from Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 55
"The pure and lovely garden of Eden, from which our first parents were driven, remained until God purposed to destroy the earth by a flood. God had planted that garden, and especially blessed it, and in his wonderful providence withdrew it from the earth, and will return it to the earth again, more gloriously adorned than before it was removed from the earth"

Now, I do not know, for a fact, that this is true, but it is what I have always been taught.
I never ran across anything to make me change my mind.
-------------------------------
Here is a little Bible quote that some people think describes the restored Garden of Eden.

Ezekiel 47
The River From the Temple
1 The man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was flowing from the south side.
3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits [a] and then led me through water that was ankle-deep. 4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee-deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist. 5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross. 6 He asked me, "Son of man, do you see this?"
Then he led me back to the bank of the river. 7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river. 8 He said to me, "This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Sea. [c] When it empties into the Sea, [d] the water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live. 10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets. The fish will be of many kinds—like the fish of the Great Sea. [e] 11 But the swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing."

[edit on 26-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

How do you know Eden doesn't exist? It does not say it was destroyed, only that the entrance to it is now under guard.

When Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration, where did they come from and where did they go when it was over?

After Jesus was tempted in the desert by Satan, angels came and ministered to him - where did they come from and where did they return to?

There is a very real afterlife. You can read thousands and thousands of Near Death Experiences on line and many people have seen a garden, a city, etc. You can't just dismiss all their testimonies.. Then again, Jesus himself had a problem with people accepting his own testimony, when he was telling the undisputable truth.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
When Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration, where did they come from and where did they go when it was over?

moses and elijah were symbolic. in fact, the whole transfiguration was symbolic. it was to show jesus in the glory he would receive in the future.

After Jesus was tempted in the desert by Satan, angels came and ministered to him - where did they come from and where did they return to?

angels are not dead humans. all scriptures point to angels having been created angels. where do you think the cherub that guarded eden came from? angels are god's messengers

There is a very real afterlife. You can read thousands and thousands of Near Death Experiences on line and many people have seen a garden, a city, etc. You can't just dismiss all their testimonies.. Then again, Jesus himself had a problem with people accepting his own testimony, when he was telling the undisputable truth.

those people are not jesus. jesus said nothing of an afterlife, instead he spoke of a resurrection and from all accounts this resurrection is in the future

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I do not think this is the most important thing to argue about, but there could be a beneficial lesson to be made, with it being saved.
We can at least think of it being symbolically saved, even if it materially was not.

its a garden, a paradise. there is no reason it couldnt be restored.

symbolically i agree. it has significance. its god original purpose. its everything humans dream about.

but materially there is no reason for god to preserve it, especially if he has plans to restore it.

God created Eden. It's his garden and he didn't destroy it. Show us where he states he destroyed it. You can't, but listen to what God himself says in Isaiah 51:3

"The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like EDEN, her wastelands like the GARDEN OF THE LORD."

What it does not say is 'like Eden was' or like the Garden of the Lord used to be."

There is nothing to imply he is talking in past tense and everything to imply he was talking in present tense.