I've tried (and failed miserably) to find the photos taken from the Zamora case. Apparently they were taken only 10 minutes after the "craft" had departed. Does anyone have any links to these photos or are they classified?

Ditto, the Hill Case. Again I wasn't able to find any photos of the circles on the car, again, can anyone provide any links, many thanks in advance.

there is some good reading here on Zamora -

I guess the best stuff can be found in past cases like this and try to put 2+2 together. Also I've read all of Jacques Vallee's books (which just came out again check amazon -get these books!! : messengers of deception , dimensions, confrontations, revelations all with new forwards etc...these are the best of the best in UFO study me thinks!!

link www.ufoevidence.org...

[edit on 25-7-2008 by RUFFREADY]

one thought

Should most (including all skeptics ;healthy, rational, closeminded) attribute proof to reputable authoritarian institutions and at the same time believe there is a good chance that the high levels of intelligence gathering agency's (the best and brightest in gov't)... were alien phenomena known about, in regard to these most powerful agency's which have some information classified in reality as "top secret" not just a website, or a fanciful thought, but reality, then would it not make sense that this is where this knowledge would go, and not to the public. This is what i think a sensible person would come to the conclusion of.

I would also think getting this perspective out of the way, that a logical person would conclude there is gov't cover up of secret gov't technology (that they would rather have us believe is aliens) which diffuses the issue in 'serious respected outlets". or that their are joint alien's (advanced being's) visitors combined with military copycats shrouded in the greatest degree of misinformation, counter intelligence, and deflection, as well as compartmentalized knowledge anywhere. I don't follow this enough to have a definitive belief, but i have narrowed this down to two options as of now.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by cpdaman]

reading the testimonials of astronauts that have witnessed off-world intelligent life and countless other personal experiences in my opinion are proof.

seeing scanned government documents about the subject at hand is proof.

seeing docs posted by france, japan and others about the subject at hand is proof.

i get the feeling that even if some people could touch, smell, and hug and 'alien', they still wouldn't believe.

it's out there. right in front of all of us.

[edit on 7/25/2008 by zooplancton]

Are there not hundreds of threads like this? Hmm...

If you want to shake hands with an alien then I believe nothing will satisfy you. If you want to suspend the prejudices you acquired by the age of 18 for a moment and honestly examine the data then I believe you should look in the FOIA archive here:

FOIA: UFO Sighting In Iran, 1976

To the OP - I hear your frustration. I share in it. I've been interested in UFOs since I was a kid.

Short answer that I've found - probably 95% of the stuff you find on the internet is bunk. Pure BS. Hoaxes.

But there's another 5% (I know that's a high number but I'm confident it's about right) of material that cannot be explained away easily or just simply cannot be explained away. Like panning for gold. You have to go through a lot of silt to find the few precious grains.

Consider one other thing - the internet is certainly convenient, but there are other means of research. Talk to retired airmen, military men and women who may have been exposed to some of these things. Look for declassified documents, the kind forced from the government by the Freedom of Information Act. I've concluded that you won't find your smoking gun on the internet. If you find it not by first hand encounter, then it will be through interaction with someone who has experienced it first hand or looking at actual photos you can hold in your hand.

reply to post by skepticsnake (the OP)

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Here's your "proof" ...

During the 1942 Battle of Los Angeles the military instituted a mandatory black out of the entire city of LA & fired 1400+ Anti-Aircraft rounds at a single, quoting the military, "unidentified aircraft." This lasted for more than an hour. Despite numerous confirmed hits the craft remained airborne and eventually flew off without ever being identified. (Read the 1942 LA times article).

In 1948 green fireballs were seen over the south-western skies of the US near nuclear weapons research sites. Famous meteoriticist Dr. Lincoln La Paz declared they weren't normal meteors. In 1949 the USAF started Project Twinkle under the direction of Dr. Anythony Mirachi.

The study concluded in a now declassified report that cinetheodolites had tracked 4 objects traveling at an "altitude of ~150K ft" (~28.5 miles!), were "30 ft. in diameter", & traveling at an "undeterminable, yet high speed." Mirachi went on to later criticize a Time magazine article that claimed there was no proof to support the existence of UFOs.

Mirachi wrote, "There was too much evidence in favor of saucers to say they could have all been balloons. 'I was conducting the main investigation. The government had to depend on me or my branch for information.' He said he didn't see how the Navy could say there had been no concrete evidence of the phenomena." (see here for more details)

Also in 1948 Dr. J. Allen Hynek, a self-proclaimed skeptic, joined Project Blue Book as a scientific adviser. By 1969 when Blue Book was shutdown Hynek did an about face. He wrote several books, particularly, "The Hynek UFO Report" which repeatedly stated that the attitude of Blue Book was, "it can't be therefore it isn't."

He also gave an interview, available on YouTube, where he said, "I was there at Blue Book and I know the job they had. They were told not to excite the public, don't rock the boat, & I saw it [with] my own eyes. ... The cases that were very difficult to explain they would jump handsprings to keep the media away from that." He later went on to found the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS).

July 13 - 29th of 1952, over the skies of Washington DC, numerous UFOs were seen by observers on the ground, in the air, & tracked on radar. The situation escalated & General Samford, the Director of Intelligence of the USAF, held an emergency press conference. When asked by a reporters what people were seeing he suggested the lights on the ground may have looked like they were in the air because inversions act like an "air lens" & bend light rays. He added that something similar could have "tricked" radar in to thinking it was tracking aerial targets. (ufologie.net...)

In 1969 an Air Force scientific report titled "Quantitative Aspects of Mirages" (Menkello, F.G. Report No. 6112, USAF, Environmental Technical Applications Center) made it clear inversion strong enough to create the visual effect described during the 1952 press-conference could not exist in earth's atmosphere.

1956 at Bentwater/Lakenheath an object was sighted by several military officers on the ground while simultaneously tracked on radar at 2 different stations. The object moved at ~4000 mph and was monitored for several hours during which two planes were scrambled.

When the 1st DeHavilland Venom locked on to the object the UFO shot to the rear of the plane. The pilot tried evasive maneuvers, couldn't break free & eventually had to return to base to refuel.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Xtraeme]

Continuation of previous post

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The 2nd plane encountered mechanical difficulties as it flew within range of the object. The US sponsored Condon Report had this to say, "In conclusion, although conventional or natural explanations certainly cannot be ruled out, the probability of such seems low in this case and the probability that at least one genuine UFO was involved appears fairly high."

Astronaut Gordon Cooper claimed he saw his 1st UFO while flying over W. Germany in 1952. During 1957 while filming at Edwards AFB he stated he saw a UFO land in the CA flats and that the film was confiscated by the military. It's hard to imagine what Cooper would hope to gain from such a story. If you listen to his tone in this interview. I think you'll agree when I say he doesn't sound particularly excitable.

On 1986 flight JAL-1628 there were 3 air-visuals of a UFO the size of an aircraft carrier, 1 air & 2 ground radar confs. This lasted for 30 minutes. Also the FAA chief John Callahan admitted he gave the flight data to Reagan's scientific staff & said afterwards he was sworn to secrecy by the CIA.

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin on 11/24/2007 made an appearance on Larry King Live (youtube vid) and said that as the panels were floating away from Apollo 11 that he, Armstrong, and Collins tracked a point of light in space, that wasn't a star, that was moving and changing directions.

In 1952 naval photographer, Delbert Newhouse, video-taped a flotilla of UFOs while with his wife & 2 small children. He recorded several minutes worth of color video footage. When handed to the USAF it was instantly classified Top Secret. The 1st analysis concluded they were not balloons, aircraft, & unlikely to be birds.

The 2nd analysis by USN Photo Interpretation Lab at Navy's Anacostia facilities was the culmination of a ~1000 man hours of work. There was almost complete consensus it couldn't be birds because there was no fluttering. The P.I.L representative suggested they weren't birds, balloons, aircraft, were "not reflections because there was no blinking while passing through 60 degrees of arc" & were, therefore, "self-luminous."

The third group to analyze the film led by the CIA, the Robertson panel, conceded to Dr. Thornton Page's analysis. His argument was that the images on the film looked similar to seagulls he had seen near his home. This simple ten-second analysis became the official explanation.

In 1969 Page lamented the "excessive levity" he brought to the Panel's proceeding and how he later thought the UFO subject deserved serious scrutiny.

So in conclusion these accounts demonstrate:

1. that there is something unidentified in our airspace. Project Twinkle definitively proves this.
   
2. it's likely more than just a simple aerial/weather phenomena. The 1956 Bentwater sighting, the 1976 Iranian F16 encounter, & the 1942 Battle of Los Angeles strongly suggest intelligence.
   
   And,
   
3. in recent years we're seeing many instances where people who have worked in high-ranking positions in the government are whistle-blowing (FAA Chief Callahan, Astronaut Cooper, Blue Book Dir. Ruppelt, Astronaut Aldrin, Blue Book Scientific adviser Hynek, Lt. Col. Daniel Mcgovern, Gov. Fife Symington, Vice-Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, etc) & they're largely being ignored even though many of them have publicly stated they're willing to testify under oath before congress.
   

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Xtraeme]

I believe that if any beings this capable truly existed, they would not waste their time on our planet. They would not appear in random people's bedrooms at night to abduct them. They would not be flying around pointlessly in our skies at night putting on light shows that no one manages to get a picture of. Surely there are more interesting things to do in the universe than mess around with us.

If they could do these things, we wouldn't know they were here and UFOlogy would not exist. If you're going to use circular logic to propose a theory, you have to close the circle.

If they do exist, the alleged sightings and alleged abductions and all the other reports show that they're not all-powerful. For some reason they can't help but attract attention in the most obvious ways: bright colorful lights (rarely in the same configuration twice) in the night skies over populated areas. So much for our all-powerful creatures. Even we can fly our planes at night without being seen.

Hey, maybe they enjoy practical jokes. If I had these abilities, I would be freaking out humanity big time!

reply to post by Xtraeme

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Very good examples of the grains of gold I was referring to, Xtraeme!

continuation of previous post

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If this isn't enough to convince you something's happening in our skies research Big Sur (1964/09/16), the Malmstrom AFB Missle/UFO incident (1967/03/16), Iranian F-4 encounter (1976/09/19), 1909 plane stands still for 15 minutes in MA (1909/12/24), Denison daylight Texas sighting (1878/01), Discovery Mission 29 (1989/03/13-14) and I have plenty more if you're interested.

reply to post by Xtraeme

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There is also the Flatwoods incident in Braxton County West Virginia. There was physical evidence where the boys and Mrs May became physical ill and an oily like substance found on their clothes and where the craft landed. Skeptics claimed it was a meteor, but the "meteor" moved to another spot and also forgot to leave a crater.
There has been much physical evidence left by landing of objects, too.

There's plenty of evidence floating around, but none of it to my knowledge adds up to substantial, undeniable proof.

As I've said before, considering the volume of good sightings, the lack of good proof might in itself a kind of clue as to what's going on. And that could be that we're possibly dealing with a spacetime component here that allows the operators of the machines (craft or probes) to correct any mistakes they may have made in the past by reviewing the consequences of that mistake in the future. If one of their ships, for instance, accidentally crashes into Air Force One, spilling the beans about their activities worldwide, they have a way of going back into the past and correcting that so it never happens in the first place.

It might be a possible reason why there's never any conclusive evidence left behind. Sure, a few blurry photos, a few odd reports. But nothing substantial that can prove anything one way or another.

Of course, there's no positive proof of this idea, either. So at the moment, we have a lot of evidence, but we don't really have any idea of what.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Nohup]

You're confusing proof with evidence, and evidence that in many cases demands production of the actual "aliens" for itself to be proven as true.

Prove to me that aliens, and not time travelers, are responsible for the sightings and reports. Human time travelers, either genetically modified, evolved, or working with humanoid robots. It's every bit as plausible, and actually even moreso, since we know for a ground fact that human beings exist. Not so aliens.

But you can't. And I can't prove anything about human time travelers. Neither of us have the kind of positive, undeniable, first-hand proof that would be needed to settle the matter either way.

Because not everyone has access to a professional camera. If you noticed something that gave you the shock of your life, and you ran to grab your normal camera, would you be able to set up a pod to hold the camera, run tests to see if the lighting is correct so you get the best lighting, and make sure that your camera has a lens that has the right amount of zoom?

No, you get what you can to take the picture. The people who encounter the presence of UFOs aren't professional photographers, and don't have the right equipment that would give them the optimal resolution and clarity. It's your average Joe that be more likely to see one, and unless he plans to set up a photographic session before hand with a UFO, don't expect to get the best pictures all the time.

I've just watched this for the first time..........

video.google.com...

Think it pretty much clears it up for me...........

Proofs?...there are tons of it!! Evidences?...a lot also.
But what are a lot in the same way are people that just refuse to accept what ever proof they can see!

Yip...aliens dont like visiting photographers apparently... Ok really...seriously? Ufo's? yes lots and lots and lots of evidence....aliens? not a single shred...nothing! nadda! lets think of other things that have no evidence? the sun is marshmallow!...the sea was created when 3 angels cried after losing a 100 to 1 bet at the horse racing! ....etc etc...ok...really,people who actually 100% believe in aliens are about as rational as anyone who believes the above....

Im guessing their ships have some sort of energy field that blurrs all photos. I doubt it would be hard for them.

But we have occurrences where thousands of people call in that see these things or groups of them fly over cities like mexico city.

When you think of shapeshifting , you still think the body is a solid object. You need to investigate more about what matter is. Scientists have basically shown that information is stored in 2D. Study the Merkabah,

Waiting for childish proof is boring. Go do something. I learned what space/time is and saw it nakedly.....then it was obvious that life is everywhere!! Train yourself...stop talking and train yourself!!

Still no one has offered proof that aliens exist...sure uinidentified craft exist but are they alien?..no ones knows. You can not call it alien because you think humans are to stupid to create something that advanced. For the last time offering proof by just saying ALIENS EXIST BECAUSE I BELIEVE does NOT constitute proof.