Stop Raising The Minimum Wage & Stop Whining

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


Minimum wage does not increase the cost of living? Perhaps my genealrized claim was at fault. I will narrow it down: Minimum wage increases CONTRIBUTE to the cost of living increase.

Have you had the opportunity to learn the basics of commerce? Rule #1: The more the overhead costs, the more the merchant must charge for their product in order to make money. If minimum wage goes up, so does the cost of service and products. Otherwise, the business owners would have to cut overhead somewhere else, for instance; combining two positions into one and eliminating an employee. That unemployed person then may turn to welfare. In order to continue funding welfare programs, the government has to increase the tax or cut other programs. Printing more money is not a solution to this problem.

Printing more money DEVALUES the international purchasing power of the dollar and messes with the trade standard. Paper money is backed by our precious metals (that is why they stamp "this note is legal tender") otherwise it is just paper. Printing more money will affect international trade and that ALSO raises how much things cost, ie: the cost of living increases accordingly, but only if our imports are greater than our exports.

Internal trade and external trade are different and affected differently. Imports and exports are a whole other concept.

reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity

and can't afford to pay your employees a living wage then you shouldn't have that business in my opinion.

You have unknowingly made a realistic point in your above statement. If the business can't afford to pay a lot more in wages then it should not exist. This is actually what occurs in the real world. Business can't afford to pay more because they can't compete so they go out of business and lay off employees. No business, no employees, no wages everyone collects unemployment. Everyone looses.

Raising mimimum wage is the reason American jobs are going to China and Mexico. We don't need to pay more for our goods, we can shop at Walmart and buy foreign goods made in countries that have no mimimum wage.

This whole mimimum wage issue is such a simple concept (ie. raise mimimum wage = loose jobs) yet it is not understood. Incredible.

reply to post by slackerwire
In the rest of the world socialism is not a dirty word.

Yes in my opinion there needs to be a rethinking of the way wages are determined.

The gap between the highest and lowest income families is significantly wider than it was 25 years ago and with each year that gap is widening. An analysis of income tax data by the Congressional Budget Office found that the top 1% of households own nearly twice as much of the nations corporate wealth as they did 15 years ago.

Low and middle income families have reaped few gains since the late 1990's despite the recent years of economic prosperity. Average incomes actually fell by 2.5% for those in the bottom fifth of the income scale and rose by just 1.3% for those in the middle fifth. Meanwhile, incomes climbed 9% for those in the top fifth.

During 1980-2005 incomes grew much more slowly for the bottom fifth of families then for the top fifth. The richest fifth grew by and average of 39% or $36,300. and the purchasing power of the poorest families increased by just $93.00 per year.

Before the recent downturn hit, our economy was generating solid income gains. The problem was that high levels of inequality meant that these gains failed to reach the middle and lower income families, whose living standards stagnated or even declined.

Growing income inequality harms this nation in a number of ways, when income growth is concentrated at the top of the income scale, the people at the bottom have a much harder time lifting themselves out of poverty and giving their children a decent start in life.

The top tenth of one percent of earners, for example, now earn four times as much as in 1980. The gains have been larger still for those even higher up the income ladder. For more then 25 years, Business Week has conducted an annual survey of the earnings of chief executive officers of the larges US Corporations. In 1980 those executives earned 42 times as much as the average American worker. (YOU ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS FAIR OR JUST OR RIGHT?)

This was larger than the corresponding ratios for such countries as Japan and Germany.

By 2000 American CEOs were earning 531 times the average worker's salary (You don't see the injustice of this?).

An example of ths is in 2006, Alpha Magazine, James Simons, a hedge fund manager earned 1.7 billion last year and two other hedge fund managers made more than 1 billon. NOW COME ON IS ANY HUMAN BEING WORTH THAT OUTLANDISH AMOUNT THIS IS GREED GREED GREED.

The combined income of the top 25 hedge fund managers was over $14 billion in 2006.

How does this affect the rest of us? Well if it keeps going there will be no middle class only the serfs and "the kings".

Yes I think we should

-- Update unemployement Insurance systems to better reflect today's workforce.

-- Extend the amount of time workers receive benefits during an economic downturn.

-- Raise the state minimum wage and index it for inflation and

-- Maintain or improve support services such as transportation, child care and health coverage.

I also believe and maintain the upper 5% are not paying their fair share of taxes. Something has got to change, while I myself am not in the top 5% I have been fortunate enough to be above the national average I do believe it is time for a change. It's time to re-examine the rules as wage structures are not determined logically according to someone's real worth, they by and large are manipulated and the common man is too dumb to see this manipulation.


[edit on 17-8-2008 by ofhumandescent]

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity

 

and can't afford to pay your employees a living wage then you shouldn't have that business in my opinion.

You have unknowingly made a realistic point in your above statement. If the business can't afford to pay a lot more in wages then it should not exist. This is actually what occurs in the real world. Business can't afford to pay more because they can't compete so they go out of business and lay off employees. No business, no employees, no wages everyone collects unemployment. Everyone looses.

Raising mimimum wage is the reason American jobs are going to China and Mexico. We don't need to pay more for our goods, we can shop at Walmart and buy foreign goods made in countries that have no mimimum wage.

This whole mimimum wage issue is such a simple concept (ie. raise mimimum wage = loose jobs) yet it is not understood. Incredible.

so if i take your "logic" a step further...if we "reduce" the minimum wage to say 1 dollar an hour all these businesses will come back to america and end the unemployment of americans and everybody will have jobs. WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! we will all be working... and living in the same carboard shacks that other poor countries people live in. what a business model!!! what true patriots the wealthy will become!!!!...long live the king!! long live the king!!

reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity

If you run a business and can't afford to pay your employees a living wage then you shouldn't have that business in my opinion. You are basically nothing but a slave driver, keeping people down so that you can earn a good living for yourself.

You are living in a dream world. 80% of small businesses fail. Small business owners generally do not make a "good living" most make the same type of living as the rest of middle class America but they work 80 hours a week and often risk their life savings to do it. In the words of my small business professor "they bought themselves a job." and nothing more.

Many are like my friends and I. We reached middle age and found we are considered "Unemployable" due to our age. Instead of going on welfare we took a risk and started a small business. I see many of these people at the local fleamarket or at a farmers market each week. Something like 80% of American business is small businesses with zero to around 30 employees. These are the backbone of America.

Bash Big Corporate America all you want but do not confuse them with the small business owner who is just trying to make a living and maybe provide a living for someone else.

As far as I am concerned the real culprit is the beauracracy tangling small business in red tape until it strangles while taxing the workers to pay for that tape. If you want to fix America repeal ALL the laws passed since 1965. Like OSHA, EPA...Equal Rights. If you wanted those laws than quit b@tching about paying for them and blaming the small business owner instead of yourself.

Do not bother bitching at me because I am a small business ower. My husband and I GROSS $30K a year combined if we are lucky.

reply to post by crimvelvet

Actually repeal all laws since 1911. That gets rid of the income tax and the federal reserve too.

Printing more money DEVALUES the international purchasing power of the dollar and messes with the trade standard. Paper money is backed by our precious metals (that is why they stamp "this note is legal tender") otherwise it is just paper. Printing more money will affect international trade and that ALSO raises how much things cost, ie: the cost of living increases accordingly, but only if our imports are greater than our exports.

reply to post by peggy m


Your money is backed by nothing but debt. Thats why it's called a federal reserve note. The federal reserve is holding a sh!t load of usa's gold in trust. The federal reserve is a scam along with the IRS as their muscle/thugs. The two should be abolished. The government should issue the currency and spend it into existence interest free on infrastructure projects etc. It has the authority to do this yet for some reason this scam continues. It's this scam that is a the root of the problem. Minimum wage would be healthy if the government followed the above alternative model.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by Swingarm]

This is crazy, honest it is. I live on about $10,000.00 a year. Now that isn't a lot of money, granted. I pay out about $6,500.00 of that a year to rent. I am more than glad to give up some of the luxuries that make me lazy. I don't have cable, I don't have phone, I don't have a cell phone, I don't own a car... I could go on I suppose, but that would be pointless. Oh, and I don't have internet, not really, but one would never know.

I enjoy my life, could it be better, sure it could. I'd like to eat meat sometimes too, but thank goodness I only eat it when I crave it. Actually I have lots of money. You want to know how rich you are?? I can tell you how to find out... Next time you see some homeless person, or street person, give them all the money you have on you. Whether it is a dollar or fifty dollars it will suddenly become a large amount that will be missing in your pocket. If you want to know how greedy you are, well don't give it to them.

The thing is raising wages makes no difference. Every time wages are raised, well everything else is raised. It is a vicious and never ending cycle. Until mankind realizes that all things are things, and that there is a difference between wants and needs this cycle will continue. Family no longer helps family, and I think God everyday that I have sons that help me every month.

My sons help me with food, they pay for my phone, they get me all kinds of stuff. I am disabled, but I am not broken. I am never broke, period, and I have tons of money to help others make their life enjoyable.

Maybe it's time we look at what is necessary in our lives. While the rich complain about having to pay taxes to help the poor and disabled are they looking at their greed? Do they realize that while their sister (mother, son, daughter, aunt etc...) is homeless (for whatever reason), and they could help them, that they complain cause they are short money on their boat insurance. Or that they have to pay higher taxes on their third house in the Bahamas?

Life amazes me. I don't have a lot, but I know people with less, and I help them cause people help me, and always have, and I always will help.

I for one believe it's time we put our priorities in order. Now dang... where did I park my Hummer....

I live in a two member household making a few dollars above minimum wage. Even with this as fact, it is difficult to pay for our flat, the utilities (electric, gas, water, sewer, phone), food and a car. In fact, we drive 1994 Buick which has been off the road, more than on for the last six weeks. It's impossible for us to purchase a new car financially, as we have no money to buy one, and can't take the risk to get further into debt buy taking out a loan.

One thing to add here is that you can't JUST take minimum wage and plug it into an equation as to people being able to survive in The U.S.. This is one of the few countries which don't have government requirements in regards to Holiday Pay, Vacation Time, Sick Days. Health care is also an issue.

I honestly don't feel that this issue is so simple as to say "Don't raise minimum wage". There are so many other factors involved.

I have to agree that there are to many people out there having children that they shouldn't be ... but then again, how many people are out there on Government benefits who are drug addicts?

The minimum wage is raised, then unemployment shoots up to 6.1%, a five year high.

Yet, I have yet to see any reporting on this correlation. But to do that would take the blame away from Bush....we can't have that.

Originally posted by RRconservative
The minimum wage is raised, then unemployment shoots up to 6.1%, a five year high.

Yet, I have yet to see any reporting on this correlation. But to do that would take the blame away from Bush....we can't have that.

According to your logic, if the minimum wage was lowered unemployment would go down. Call John McCain at (703) 418-2008 and ask him to sponsor that bill in his remaining days in office. I think it's a great idea. In his day, a piece of bubble gum was a penny, and gas was a nickel. I miss those times. I hope the Hockey Mom in Chief doesn't mind dropping me off at the 1928 soccer game in McCain's head.

Did I mention he was a POW?

if the minimum wage was lowered unemployment would go down.

reply to post by ZuzusPetals

You are right about that! You must have taken some basic economics? Right? Just kidding.

McCain or any other candidate can't propose lowering the minimum wage because it would be political suicide even though lowering it would mean increased employment and a lot of other wonderful advantages for our youth in terms of experience and education. Again, a course in basic economics is a great eye opener!

I hope the Hockey Mom in Chief doesn't mind dropping me off at the 1928 soccer game in McCain's head.

reply to post by ZuzusPetals


Hi again Zuz,

That's a good point because McCain is a real old guy with a lot of experience and, of course, has been in a prison camp for many years. He still seems to have the metal, so to speak and doesn't make many mistakes. Experience in government, military and life in general seems to be on his side!

Barac, on the other hand made the "My Muslim Faith" blunder recently. He also did the "Perfume on a pig" blunder which probably lost him a major portion of his female fans. What embarassment will he make in the future?

Originally posted by justamomma

And really, the main thing that doesn't make sense to me is that the cost of living will go up, so does minimum wage increases really help the poor? OMG!!! Is this how WE or THEY (depending on your position) are wiping out the middle class?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by justamomma]

I just completed a research paper on Middle Class America. Middle class is not gone, the average middle class wage is now $55,000-125,000 depending on where. The problem with that is the average salary for Working Class America (Working Poor) is $12,000-26,000. It is a much bigger gap and the income tax burdens lay with the middle classes. These figures are according to the US Census.

Another shift is occuring that is wiping out Middle Class America.. Globalization. Corporations that pay their workers minimum wage and their middle class executives are moving out of the country or downsizing to increase profits. Working class people who once could get a factory job at 20% above minimum wage and could work their way up to middle class wages are now seeing wage caps at a much lower rate and starting wages are getting closer and closer to minimum wage. Yet the cost of living and taxes keep rising.

This current minimum wage hike will produce a national economic disaster combined with the mortgage industry disaster and the natural disasters that are affecting food supply. Now keep in mind, we lost the majority of our mom and pop businesses and independent farms that supported our local economies when big business moved in. It will not be reported as the Greatest Depression because the corporations that control the economy operate on a global scale and business is good for them. No, the economy will be reported by the media as being unaffected. I predict we (middle class and working class) will all be making close to minimum wage in less than 10 years and none of us will be able to feed our families.

What do you think? Do you think that the big corporations will turn down the massive profits and the outrageous CEO salaries to bail us out? I doubt it.

Originally posted by plumranch
Hi again Zuz,

That's a good point because McCain is a real old guy with a lot of experience and, of course, has been in a prison camp for many years.

I want a champion of PTSD in the White House, not a President with it.

Have you met my grandfather? Suffice to say, you wouldn't want him running the country either. Someone screaming at Hogan's Hero's # YOU SCHULTZ is not the best diplomat you can hire.

reply to post by peggy m


What the average Joe will say is ellect someone like Obama who will tax the X*!! out of the corporations, raise taxes on the executives and everyone else, raise the mimimum wage, etc. Then at the corporations next meeting they decide to move to Mexico to avoid excessive taxes and wages. Why not? In a global economy they need to compete.

So if you want to keep the corporations in America, lower their taxes, don't raise them so at least we keep America's tax base.

Tom and Jerries ice cream company tried lowering their chief exec's salary. Not only did they not find anyone qualified for the job, they were out of business within a year!

The free market system works, you just can't kill the goose to get the golden egg.