reply to post by slackerwire
ok, the topic here is about minimum wage...you are debating a book written by a history professor that has sold over a million copies...I'm assuming
you haven't even read it, yet you ....
oh why am I wasting my time...
typical...just like out of the Rove play book...try and destroy the credibility of a person with fabrications rather than debate the issues. I
challenge you to pick something out of his book and debate it and then show me where he has stated something that is false...oh, that would require
reading it first!
[edit on 26-7-2008 by skyshow]
Stop Raising The Minimum Wage & Stop Whining, page 20
privacy
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:09 AM by slackerwire
reply to post by skyshow
Sigh.....You know what they say about assuming anything.
Want to debate, ok fine.
Numbnuts believes the bombings of cities like Hiroshima weren't necessary. One would think that since he was in WW2, he would have seen the necessity of hitting Hiroshima with the A-Bomb. It helped put an end to the war and saved countless American lives. That much is fact, yet he lets his pacifistic attitude prevent him from using common sense.
Sigh.....You know what they say about assuming anything.
Want to debate, ok fine.
Numbnuts believes the bombings of cities like Hiroshima weren't necessary. One would think that since he was in WW2, he would have seen the necessity of hitting Hiroshima with the A-Bomb. It helped put an end to the war and saved countless American lives. That much is fact, yet he lets his pacifistic attitude prevent him from using common sense.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:18 AM by skyshow
reply to post by slackerwire
why don't you tell us why he postulates so...come on, obviously you know this much, tell us why he said what he did (by the way he ain't the only one who thinks so...this is a conspiracy web site, and many a blogger on here will easily side with Dr. Zinn on this one).
why don't you tell us why he postulates so...come on, obviously you know this much, tell us why he said what he did (by the way he ain't the only one who thinks so...this is a conspiracy web site, and many a blogger on here will easily side with Dr. Zinn on this one).
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:20 AM by slackerwire
reply to post by skyshow
The reasoning behind his opinion is irrelevant. Simple math proves him wrong.
Emotion has no place in war.
The reasoning behind his opinion is irrelevant. Simple math proves him wrong.
Emotion has no place in war.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:44 AM by skyshow
reply to post by slackerwire
I feel like I just watched a baloon deflate! Thank god we have the minimum wage...it brought us out of a wretched existance in the early 1900's and 1800's. It still falls short of keeping up with inflations, but it's better than nothing.
I must say this has been one of the most entertaining threads I've been a part of in a long long time. So many intelligent people. Lot's of folks are better informed now than they were before, and the best part of all, is that this is a thread for the working class...it got us all talking about something so genuine and central to the heart...to the heart of America in fact...afterall it is the workers who built this country and made it what is today...hats off to the working class!!!
I feel like I just watched a baloon deflate! Thank god we have the minimum wage...it brought us out of a wretched existance in the early 1900's and 1800's. It still falls short of keeping up with inflations, but it's better than nothing.
I must say this has been one of the most entertaining threads I've been a part of in a long long time. So many intelligent people. Lot's of folks are better informed now than they were before, and the best part of all, is that this is a thread for the working class...it got us all talking about something so genuine and central to the heart...to the heart of America in fact...afterall it is the workers who built this country and made it what is today...hats off to the working class!!!
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:50 AM by slackerwire
reply to post by skyshow
Well thats completely avoiding the previous posts. Good job, you didn't even try to make it look like you WEREN'T avoiding that post.
As for minimum wage, there will always be a need for a lower class of uneducated, unskilled workers to fill basic labor positions. If they don't like making MW, hopefully a crappy paycheck will be enough motivation for them to improve their lives by obtaining marketable job skills.
Well thats completely avoiding the previous posts. Good job, you didn't even try to make it look like you WEREN'T avoiding that post.
As for minimum wage, there will always be a need for a lower class of uneducated, unskilled workers to fill basic labor positions. If they don't like making MW, hopefully a crappy paycheck will be enough motivation for them to improve their lives by obtaining marketable job skills.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 07:59 AM by skyshow
reply to post by slackerwire
Hey, I've played your game long enough...I know you like to think your getting one up on the other side by trying to put me in the defensive, but I'm growing bored with it and I bet so are the moderators and the readers. Now do you have something to say--I mean really have something to say-- about the minimum wage (not that phoney baloney to make you appear like your in the game) or are you just jerking on chains? (I say this because your repeating points already made multiple times in this thread, demonstrating that you haven't read it or your...read my last line).
[edit on 26-7-2008 by skyshow]
Hey, I've played your game long enough...I know you like to think your getting one up on the other side by trying to put me in the defensive, but I'm growing bored with it and I bet so are the moderators and the readers. Now do you have something to say--I mean really have something to say-- about the minimum wage (not that phoney baloney to make you appear like your in the game) or are you just jerking on chains? (I say this because your repeating points already made multiple times in this thread, demonstrating that you haven't read it or your...read my last line).
[edit on 26-7-2008 by skyshow]
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 08:36 AM by mybigunit
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by mybigunit
This is one of those threads that amazes me. The data on this is crystal clear. It cannot get any clearer. It is simply a fact that when you remove artificial wages the average median wage rises and quartile median wages rise across all sectors. This happens every time its tested in the economic models. The inflation impact works both ways - the justification for raising the minimum wage from the populist brigade is always because of inflation, but in doing so inflation gets raised yet again. Its a cycle.
I think if you look to before minimum wages were instituted you had huge exploitation of the typical worker. Paying wages way to low to make it a living. Keep in mind if this wasnt happening we wouldnt have minimum wages in the first place would we? I DO understand your point...take out the floor and let the market decide but human nature says that most people will exploit their workers to the benefits of themselves and that is just how it is.
I do not understand this obsession over CEO pay. Who cares? It is irrelevant to the topic here. CEOs get paid what the market will bear, and look at the fantastical wages they get paid. Just imagine how much better it would if you removed the artificial floor so that the market can compute wages from everyone from the bottom to the top.
Actually it does apply here. As I stated human nature shows you that given the chance people are all about themselves and not about others. Thats how it is. Once again take the execs. BTW Im talking the execs not just the CEOs. Im talking CEO, CFO, COO, and so on and so forth. They ravage their particular companies that most of them never started for all that they can then they leave with huge golden parachutes. Its not about what the market will bear because even in hard times we have seen over and over and over they still get theirs while others have to cut back. Look at the banking industries or the airlines industries for good examples of this.
Im a believer in the trickle down theory that is if you get rid of taxes that it will create jobs and also raise pay because the companies will have more money to do so. But heres the problem. It never happens. Exec pay goes way up and the working class usually gets left in the dust. You saw this in the 80s with Regan and you saw it now with Bush where real income went nowhere during the Bush boom but exec pay went up some 50%. So this does apply to the minimum wage argument.
You may pay your employees a "living wage" but as a business owner its up to you to do so, not the government. Plus, not all businesses operate on profit margins wide enough to be able to do such a thing. Most employees who get paid minimum wage are in a very specific industry sector for a reason. Unless your business is in in certain service sector industries, paying people above minimum wage is commonplace.
I agree with you on this you know how I feel about the government. It should be up to the business owners not the government to jump in. But as I pointed out human nature steps in and most people are selfish and think about themselves and what THEY can get in any given time not what they can give. People like me are really in the minority. I feel if you give back to society that you should at least be able to survive. Im not saying with all sorts of luxuries but you should be able to put gas in your car and food on the table. At $7.00 and hour you cant do this and I really do believe if you get rid of the floor it will be exploited by most not all but most execs and put into their own pockets and yes history has shown this.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 10:13 AM by slackerwire
reply to post by skyshow
As soon as you make a valid point, I will address it.
This debate comes down to this: People with economic sense, and people without.
Oddly enough, the people without tend to support minimum wage increases, yet none of them actually own and operate a business as I pointed out before.
I guess you would also tell Tiger Woods how to golf, while not being able to play as well as he does too right?
Hell, just to prove my point I would lay my wallet on the line.
Open your own business, and pay people minimum wage for 6 months. At the end of the 6th month, give them a raise to 10 or 12 bucks an hour. If you're still in business after another 6 months, I'll make a sizable donation to whatever charity you choose.
If you close up shop before the end of 1 year, you must make a donation of at least 5 figures to a charity of my choice.
Deal?
As soon as you make a valid point, I will address it.
This debate comes down to this: People with economic sense, and people without.
Oddly enough, the people without tend to support minimum wage increases, yet none of them actually own and operate a business as I pointed out before.
I guess you would also tell Tiger Woods how to golf, while not being able to play as well as he does too right?
Hell, just to prove my point I would lay my wallet on the line.
Open your own business, and pay people minimum wage for 6 months. At the end of the 6th month, give them a raise to 10 or 12 bucks an hour. If you're still in business after another 6 months, I'll make a sizable donation to whatever charity you choose.
If you close up shop before the end of 1 year, you must make a donation of at least 5 figures to a charity of my choice.
Deal?
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 10:15 AM by slackerwire
reply to post by forthepeople
Can you provide an exact dollar amount Bush has made from high gas prices?
I won't be holding my breath.
Can you provide an exact dollar amount Bush has made from high gas prices?
I won't be holding my breath.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 11:21 AM by forthepeople
reply to post by slackerwire
Slacker my net worth as of last month is 3.7 million dollars what is yours? Not that it matters if its more good for you my friend.
I opened my company 3 years.
My employees at entry level make 9 bucks a hour they stay a year and do good i raise em up to $11-12/hr . Minimum wage here is/was $5.75 / hr
What they do doesnt require a college education just good work ethnics.
Your business must not be prospering to much if you cant pay good wages. Or is it that your just greedy? Hmmmm
I wasnt born with a silver spoon.
If i paid them peanuts sure i could afford more toys but im not greedy.
I dont need 5 cars and 3 houses.
See i know what its like to be the little man. Im not one of those people who FORGOT where they came from and what its like to live at the bottom.
What i think has failed to be mentioned in this whole thread is even people who work low end jobs are trying to help themselves. They are doing something for society no matter how small it may seem to some of you folks.
They are not sitting on their buttocks doing nothing.
I was raised being told its ok to help people who are trying to help themselves.
Its called compassion and brotherly love. IF this world had more of it the planet world be a million times better. Now no matter how cliché or mushy that sounds its the truth.
If my values and beliefs cause me to go bankrupt so be it. Ill go back to living in a 2 bedroom apartment before i change my beliefs for money.
[edit on 26-7-2008 by forthepeople]
Slacker my net worth as of last month is 3.7 million dollars what is yours? Not that it matters if its more good for you my friend.
I opened my company 3 years.
My employees at entry level make 9 bucks a hour they stay a year and do good i raise em up to $11-12/hr . Minimum wage here is/was $5.75 / hr
What they do doesnt require a college education just good work ethnics.
Your business must not be prospering to much if you cant pay good wages. Or is it that your just greedy? Hmmmm
I wasnt born with a silver spoon.
If i paid them peanuts sure i could afford more toys but im not greedy.
I dont need 5 cars and 3 houses.
See i know what its like to be the little man. Im not one of those people who FORGOT where they came from and what its like to live at the bottom.
What i think has failed to be mentioned in this whole thread is even people who work low end jobs are trying to help themselves. They are doing something for society no matter how small it may seem to some of you folks.
They are not sitting on their buttocks doing nothing.
I was raised being told its ok to help people who are trying to help themselves.
Its called compassion and brotherly love. IF this world had more of it the planet world be a million times better. Now no matter how cliché or mushy that sounds its the truth.
If my values and beliefs cause me to go bankrupt so be it. Ill go back to living in a 2 bedroom apartment before i change my beliefs for money.
[edit on 26-7-2008 by forthepeople]
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 11:32 AM by mybigunit
reply to post by slackerwire
I own my own company. In fact a few people on ATS knows which company I own so I do not fall in the blanket statement you made. The fact is most humans by nature are greedy. I cant change it and neither can you it is what it is. I try to put that aside and I like Henry Ford believe that if you pay your employees well it will give them the money to come back and buy your products. Its called Fordism. Unfortunately most execs as I have posted above do not think this way anymore. They get what they can when they can and screw everyone else. The trickle down theory has been tried 2 times and failed both times not because its a bad idea it failed because human nature kicked into gear. If you get rid of the minimum wage it gives execs excuses to pay less (for the good of the company of course) so they can continue to make the current salaries or more. Just a fact and history can and does prove me right.
I own my own company. In fact a few people on ATS knows which company I own so I do not fall in the blanket statement you made. The fact is most humans by nature are greedy. I cant change it and neither can you it is what it is. I try to put that aside and I like Henry Ford believe that if you pay your employees well it will give them the money to come back and buy your products. Its called Fordism. Unfortunately most execs as I have posted above do not think this way anymore. They get what they can when they can and screw everyone else. The trickle down theory has been tried 2 times and failed both times not because its a bad idea it failed because human nature kicked into gear. If you get rid of the minimum wage it gives execs excuses to pay less (for the good of the company of course) so they can continue to make the current salaries or more. Just a fact and history can and does prove me right.
Im not particulary well versed in finance etc...so i cant go much deeper than that...but
thats how i see it...reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 12:15 PM by ncuncfan2006
Originally posted by forthepeople
reply to post by slackerwire
Slacker my net worth as of last month is 3.7 million dollars what is yours? Not that it matters if its more good for you my friend.
I opened my company 3 years.
My employees at entry level make 9 bucks a hour they stay a year and do good i raise em up to $11-12/hr . Minimum wage here is/was $5.75 / hr
What they do doesnt require a college education just good work ethnics.
Your business must not be prospering to much if you cant pay good wages. Or is it that your just greedy? Hmmmm
I wasnt born with a silver spoon.
If i paid them peanuts sure i could afford more toys but im not greedy.
I dont need 5 cars and 3 houses.
See i know what its like to be the little man. Im not one of those people who FORGOT where they came from and what its like to live at the bottom.
What i think has failed to be mentioned in this whole thread is even people who work low end jobs are trying to help themselves. They are doing something for society no matter how small it may seem to some of you folks.
They are not sitting on their buttocks doing nothing.
I was raised being told its ok to help people who are trying to help themselves.
Its called compassion and brotherly love. IF this world had more of it the planet world be a million times better. Now no matter how cliché or mushy that sounds its the truth.
If my values and beliefs cause me to go bankrupt so be it. Ill go back to living in a 2 bedroom apartment before i change my beliefs for money.
[edit on 26-7-2008 by forthepeople]
Hats off to you bro.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 12:27 PM by slackerwire
reply to post by mybigunit
I never claimed people weren't greedy. Hell, I admit I am a big time greedy mf'er. Why shouldn't I and my family benefit from my hard work? Why should I bust my ass and risk my financial life if I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor?
I like my toys. I like my vacation house, I like my rural getaway both because it gives me peace of mind and a place to go in a SitX scenario.
Without busting my ass, I wouldn't have the means to have acquired such things.
Without a doubt people are greedy. However, without greed, no one would go into business for themselves.
Seriously, why did you decide to go into business for yourself?
As for me, I've always thought the idea of busting my ass to make other people money was simply a stupid idea. So I did what was necessary to raise the capital to start up my own thing.
I never claimed people weren't greedy. Hell, I admit I am a big time greedy mf'er. Why shouldn't I and my family benefit from my hard work? Why should I bust my ass and risk my financial life if I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor?
I like my toys. I like my vacation house, I like my rural getaway both because it gives me peace of mind and a place to go in a SitX scenario.
Without busting my ass, I wouldn't have the means to have acquired such things.
Without a doubt people are greedy. However, without greed, no one would go into business for themselves.
Seriously, why did you decide to go into business for yourself?
As for me, I've always thought the idea of busting my ass to make other people money was simply a stupid idea. So I did what was necessary to raise the capital to start up my own thing.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 12:38 PM by slackerwire
reply to post by forthepeople
3.7 mil and you still can't manage to use elementary school level grammar?
You sure it's 3.7 million and not $3.70?
My net worth is 7 figures, but equally important, I am completely liquid.
As I mentioned numerous times before, I don't pay peanuts, because my employees are worth more to me and my business than minimum wage. I pay them what I think they are worth to my business.
Be compassionate all you want, but do it using your own wallet and not mandating others follow along with your beliefs.
The world would also be a better place is ice cream cones, bags of cash, and puppies fell from the sky, however we both know that won't happen.
The problem with people like you is that you think you know whats best for everyone. This may come as a shock, but YOU DON'T.
Run your business the way you see fit, and let others do the same.
3.7 mil and you still can't manage to use elementary school level grammar?
You sure it's 3.7 million and not $3.70?
My net worth is 7 figures, but equally important, I am completely liquid.
As I mentioned numerous times before, I don't pay peanuts, because my employees are worth more to me and my business than minimum wage. I pay them what I think they are worth to my business.
Be compassionate all you want, but do it using your own wallet and not mandating others follow along with your beliefs.
The world would also be a better place is ice cream cones, bags of cash, and puppies fell from the sky, however we both know that won't happen.
The problem with people like you is that you think you know whats best for everyone. This may come as a shock, but YOU DON'T.
Run your business the way you see fit, and let others do the same.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 12:45 PM by dalan.
reply to post by Solarskye
Minimum wage wasn't made for anyone.
It is near impossible for a single person to live off minimum wage.
Stop regurgitating John McCain's pathetic arguments.
Minimum wage wasn't made for anyone.
It is near impossible for a single person to live off minimum wage.
Stop regurgitating John McCain's pathetic arguments.
reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 01:04 PM by nixie_nox
reply to post by beforetime
I definetly agree with this. Companies and agencies need to stop requiring a piece of paper to determine work credibility. And base it on experience and knowledge. I have seen really dumb doctors and really smart garbage men.
In my job, I can do everything that all the other employees can. They come to me for advise. I have been there 10 years. Yet I am maxed out on my entry level position because I don't have a degree. I can't afford it. This state gets a D-- for affordibility.
I have partial degree and I can't pay my student loans as it is.
It is a no win situation.
I don't fault the rich for being rich. What I do have a had time with is that they make sure they stay that way.
Their children can afford to go to college.
They can spend all their spare time on extracarricular activities and build their resume while the rest have to work.
They can hire accountants and lawyers to make sure they have to pay the least taxes they can, and make the most out of everything else.
They have far more resources to keep them successful then we do.
It would be a completely different picture if the playing field was even. Say that education was free, like in so many places. Then those with brains, despite income, would hold these jobs.
I definetly agree with this. Companies and agencies need to stop requiring a piece of paper to determine work credibility. And base it on experience and knowledge. I have seen really dumb doctors and really smart garbage men.
In my job, I can do everything that all the other employees can. They come to me for advise. I have been there 10 years. Yet I am maxed out on my entry level position because I don't have a degree. I can't afford it. This state gets a D-- for affordibility.
I have partial degree and I can't pay my student loans as it is.
It is a no win situation.
I don't fault the rich for being rich. What I do have a had time with is that they make sure they stay that way.
Their children can afford to go to college.
They can spend all their spare time on extracarricular activities and build their resume while the rest have to work.
They can hire accountants and lawyers to make sure they have to pay the least taxes they can, and make the most out of everything else.
They have far more resources to keep them successful then we do.
It would be a completely different picture if the playing field was even. Say that education was free, like in so many places. Then those with brains, despite income, would hold these jobs.
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