Evolution & Christiany as one??

This is a fun topic! Depending on your views as a Christian, macro evolution may or may not be acceptable. However that is not to say that it is not possible. But if you follow the young Earth train of thought, which, if I remember correctly, puts Earth at like 4000 years old, then obviously macro evolution would conflict with that due to the amount of time involved. If you don't buy into that mentality, then macro evolution can definitely be seen as part of the puzzle.

When I was still a follower of the Christian religion, I had come to the conclusion that there was nothing that made me feel that macro and micro evolution, creation, dinosaurs, ancient civilizations, etc., couldn't fit into the Biblical stance on how things began. Genesis leaves much room for interpretation as far as the details of what types of living things came and went during those early times. When you combine that with the fact that there are so many ancient ruins scattered around the planet, and dinosaur bones and fossils buried under thousands of years of soil, it seems easy to accept the idea that Genesis doesn't tell everything. Who knows what was destroyed and killed by the great flood.

If you look at the bible as a piece of literary art written by man it is easy to combine the two. It was man's hand that held that stylus. God speak's through man but the translation can get muddled. I too believe that a day does not mean the literal 24 hours.

love and light,
-anyone

reply to post by overit88


Try Teilhard de Chardin. 13 volumes :

Le Phénomène Humain, (1955)
L'Apparition de l'Homme, (1956)
La Vision du Passé, (1957)
Le Milieu Divin, 1957
L'Avenir de l'Homme, (1959)
L'Énergie Humaine, (1962)
L'Activation de l'Énergie, (1963)
La Place de l'Homme dans la Nature, (1965)
Science et Christ, 1965
Comment je crois, (1969)
Les Directions de l'Avenir, (1973)
Écrits du Temps de la Guerre, (1975)
Le Cœur de la Matière, (1976)

source

There's nothing inherently anti-Christian in evolution. In fact, Christianity recognizes the idea that things, and particularly people, do not always stay the same. In Christianity, it's reasonably accurate to say that a person's spirit "evolves" throughout their life as they have different experiences, and that with the help of a catalyst (Jesus/The Holy Spirit), a person can be transformed into something that they were not before. "Saved," or "enlightened," or whatever you want to call it.

That's essentially an evolutionary process.

simple:
#1 Godforce was all there was in the void,a singularity building potential like a telsa model.
#2 godforce wants company , he imagines what he wants,life
#3 his thought/word exploded into motion creating time,THE BIG BANG
#4 the "breath" of "godforce" is the contracting and expanding of the universe.
#5 he takes VERY long breaths>>
#6 Lifes directives are his directives,make more life,anyway possiable
#7 life formes and changes and adapts to what is possiable
#8 destruction of life isnt the directive,so to do so is breaking the order
#9 Nature is a school to prepare you for adaptation/evolution into the cosmos to furfill the directive,spread life,nature is a school.
#10 jesus merged with the godforce directive,hence become one
#11 jesus tought us that all of us have this potential,we all,and all thing are held togather by the "breath of godforce",merge follow the directive,perserve and spread life.
#12 by following the directive u increase your potential,thereby increasing the flow of godforce,we all are potential source;s for the one godforce.

I would advise reading telsa's work on the cosmic winds,and earthforce power,they give a better understanding of what im saying.
we are all capable of condusting godforce energy,but only if you can raise your potential enough to create the laws of attraction,

love,peace,exploration of life,spreading of life,seeking truth,understanding,forgiveness.
these all increase you potential.and these all are tought buy the wisest of all religions,and by jesus.

therefor it is very easy to merge evolution and and religon togather,becuse there has to be a start to everything,even the big bang>>.

Originally posted by overit88

For the record I strongly believe in science and the theory of evolution and don't know how "a savior", Jesus, who had indirectly evolved from primates, could be "God in the flesh". (And I don't think I need to mention how impossible the "Adam and Eve" story is) Yet some of my friends believe in evolution AND Christianity when all i see are contradictions.

Who's to say God didn't design creation to evolve?

The way I look at it is God is beyond time and space. As the bible says, to God a day is like a thousand years and vice versa. Hence, the six days of creation (or is it seven days of creation) are not literal days. They are epochs, eons, or simply periods of time.

these two things can coexist cause ppl who believe in them both are complete morons who can not think for themselves. they just accept everything they dont understand and seemingly smarter ppl offer to them. simple...

reply to post by roxaz


So you say that only idiots can believe in both, I myself thought about it and came up with my own beliefs over the past 6 years. otheres on the forum have had more time to think about it. A rain doesnt go off one side, the left or right, but stays in the middle so it can reach its destination.

If that is your belief then so be it is your right to think that way

reply to post by roxaz


I'd love for you to elaborate on that. How are we complete morons? Feel free to go into detail on how the two cannot be reconciled.

What Christians tend to forget is that evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, it only explains things after life began. The origin of life is a whole different field, once they understand that they might feel a little more comfortable.

The days mentioned in the beginning of genesis are literal 24 hour periods...


GENESIS 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

People can try and reconcile evolution and scripture all they like, but when it comes to the crunch, you either believe in one or the other. You believe man, or God.

That said, I don't believe that that the earth was created in the six day creation week mentioned in the beginning of Genesis. I believe something happened to make the world fall into a state of chaos....

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word translated here as "was" (haya), also means became...

cf.blueletterbible.org...

The passage below in Isaiah says the Lord created the world not in vain...

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The hebrew word translated as "vain" is tohuw, which means chaos, waste, and it the same word used in Genesis 1:2, which is there translated in English as "without form". Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew says the world BECAME (haya) Tohuw and Bohuw, two words that mean choatic, desolate, in ruin, vacant, empty....

Bohuw - cf.blueletterbible.org...

Tohuw - cf.blueletterbible.org...

So Isaiah says that God created not the world in Tohuw, and Genesis describes the world as being in this state after the Earth was created. I believe the angelic rebellion and the wars that followed destroyed the face of the earth and all life in it (prehistoric life etc), then God renewed the face of the earth and all life in it during the creation week described in Genesis. The Earth is older than 6000 years, but the life here at the moment is not.

But to get back on topic, evolution does not square up with scripture, no matter how much some would like it two.


[edit on 24/7/08 by doctorex]

sorry somethin screwed up with the post thing

[edit on 7/24/2008 by Reneau]

Originally posted by doctorex
The days mentioned in the beginning of genesis are literal 24 hour periods...

not all of it would be 24 hour days because he created time on the "third day" (sun, moon, seasons, days) so the "days" before that were timeless. You have to look at it this way which is easier for a hebrew shepard to understand seven days or 14 billion years.

Originally posted by overit88
Hey I am new here to ATS but had a question that many people have apparently figured out, but I am still clueless to:

How can evolution and Christianity co-exist?

For the record I strongly believe in science and the theory of evolution and don't know how "a savior", Jesus, who had indirectly evolved from primates, could be "God in the flesh". (And I don't think I need to mention how impossible the "Adam and Eve" story is) Yet some of my friends believe in evolution AND Christianity when all i see are contradictions.

Can someone please explain how they can be mixed? (if its even possible)

Thanks.

Hi all...hmm a kinda complicated post there...let's try to figure it out

first you need to understand there is creationism and evolution...

everything was created and now it is evolving

Jesus was/is a light being(i think he was a starseed) ...we are all part of God the creator force...

the adam race of humans..were modified(DNA) by alpha draconians


okey dokes

much love to all beings of light and even the dark ones who want to be of light

Originally posted by Reneau

Originally posted by doctorex
The days mentioned in the beginning of genesis are literal 24 hour periods...

not all of it would be 24 hour days because he created time on the "third day" (sun, moon, seasons, days) so the "days" before that were timeless. You have to look at it this way which is easier for a hebrew shepard to understand seven days or 14 billion years.

Day and night were created on the first day, and there was an evening and a morning, just as on all the other days. Also, when you look into the Hebrew, the sun and moon were not created on the later days, it says they became, to cause, in the heavens. It is the same word "haya" I talked about earlier. The latter verses (16-17), says the luminaries `asah, which means more than what we would think of as being created. It means to work with, to effect, to attend to, to put in order.

cf.blueletterbible.org...

The actual hebrew word for create is bara', and is used in the first verse of Genesis.

1 In the beginning God created (bara') the heavens and the earth.

What is being described in that latter verses, the sun and moon was already in existence, everything was simply set in proper orbit to mark the periods of time that God had already devised on the first day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The time periods were already created, the lights in the firmament were set to be signs of these periods. Those Hebrew shepherds understood better what was written in Genesis than we do.

[edit on 24/7/08 by doctorex]

reply to post by doctorex


Genesis 1:14
And God said, let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs. and for seasons, and years:

this is when "time" started in our sence of the word. Before this eons could have passed. I do like your thought that this is when the orbits are started, I give credit for that.

I do have a monkey wrench though; if man and dinosaure walked the earth together, which would be the cass in earth was created in seven days, why then is there not acounts of them, granted there is the dragon but besides that where are they.

on a side note how is the earth a void and water at the same time

Originally posted by Reneau
And God said, let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs. and for seasons, and years:
Reneau
this is when "time" started in our sence of the word.

The day and night were already divided on day 1. If I hang a clock on the wall to be a sign of time, that doesn't mean that time started when I hung the clock, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point, since our different views are simply more about our perception of that time. No biggy.

Originally posted by Reneau

I do have a monkey wrench though; if man and dinosaure walked the earth together, which would be the cass in earth was created in seven days, why then is there not acounts of them, granted there is the dragon but besides that where are they.

I don't believe man and dinosaur walked the earth together. As I explained earlier on, I believe their was "prehistoric life" on earth and something happened, something catastrophic that caused the earth to become and empty (which I believe was the Angelic rebellion), which is why none of those life forms are still here.

Notice this passage from the book of Job. All the Angels and the morning stars, which would include Lucifer and the one third of Angels that rebelled, sang for joy at the creation of the earth, so this event must have happened before the angelic rebellion.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Originally posted by Reneau
on a side note how is the earth a void and water at the same time

The word translated as void (bohuw) has many meanings, empty, vacant, ruin. Genesis in the hebrew says the earth became this way. Something cannot become ruin, empty, desolate, chaotic, unless it was previous something different. Every scientist on Earth will tell you something catastrophic happened in the past that wiped out life, they just don't believe it wiped out everything. Genesis says otherwise.

I believe the 7 days of creation is actually a renewing of the earth, life being recreated and everything being set back in order after the destruction caused by the angelic rebellion.



[edit on 25/7/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by alkali
I wasn't trying to be rude in my earlier post. Don't get fussy for no reason.

I never implied that you were trying to be rude. I’m blunt by nature; please do not take it personally.

There's no way you're serious. If you take two populations of squirrels, separate them with a river and let them breed for 1 million years, do you seriously think they will be able to inter-breed once you put them back together?

Yes I was serious, and since you are not challenging my rebuttal, I’ll take it as a sign that you have renounced your previous allegations.

Now, to digress . . . your hypothetical scenario . . .

1 million years after I separated them, I highly doubt that I would be alive to put them back together.~

Oh, wait . . . you said seriously. Sorry; my answer, seriously, is “Perhaps”.

If you think they will be capable of inter-breeding you have never taken a genetics class or even slightly studied evolution.

I’m going to politely point out, that what you just stated, is a genetic fallacy. (pun intended)

You know, along with anyone else who reads this, that I was not looking for a specific number. To assume such is stupid.

Originally posted by alkali
how many micro evolutions does it take to make a macro.

?*
If someone asks “how many?” you reply with a number. Unless of course there is no valid answer and hence it is not a valid question. Which is all i was implying.

Yet again I can use squirrels as an example. You separate the squirrels and let them go through trillions of "micro evolutions",

Trillions of micro evolutions; why not a googolplex?!

there is absolutely no chance after millions of years that you have the same animal. Common sense and an intro statistics class tells you that without much trouble.

I never said that after millions of years it would be the same animal.

But you’re also saying there is no chance the squirrels would be able to procreate. No chance? Are you sure? Common sense and an intro statistics class would also tell you that the odds of life arising from a lifeless universe are insurmountable. If the vast majority of evolutionists can bolster those odds, I’ll take my chances that “Rocky” could find a way to make it happen!

Originally posted by JPhish
You’re inadvertently claiming that a human and an orangutan can produce offspring. This is universally accepted as false; unless there is a recent tabloid I’ve missed.

Originally posted by alkali
Can you explain how I was claiming that?

I never said you claimed it, I said you inadvertently did.

Originally posted by alkali in the other post
There's no difference between micro and macro evolution.

Creatures that micro-evolve can still procreate with each other. Creatures that have presumably macro-evolved can not. Hence, micro-evolution and macro-evolution are not the same thing.

As I said, a grasp of how DNA functions and replicates and screws up will show that I was not claiming that at all. Eventually, along the evolutionary line, a species that separates into two groups will not be able to produce viable offspring anymore due to genetic differences. This is common sense as well.

Really? Ask yourself this question; can these two creatures produce viable offspring?

If you’re not a dog person, it’s a Chihuahua and Great Dane.

[edit on 7/25/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by doctorex
The days mentioned in the beginning of genesis are literal 24 hour periods...


GENESIS 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. ~II Peter 3:8

God exists beyond time and space. Consider the theory of relativity. A person who leaves earth at the speed of light for one year and returns within one year, he will only be one year older but the people on earth will have long ago died from old age. (don't know the exact passage of time)

Time is relative to something. Genesis is vague about what time is being measured against. It says, "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." If it was formless and empty, how big was it? The size of the universe? What if God was viewing earth through a blackhole? How would time be affected? Silly questions? Who knows?

God called the light "Day," and the darkness he called "Night." So how long was the first few 'Days" before earth was clearly defined (water and land separated)? These are questions that can't be answered based on the information provided in Genesis. But it does leave open the possibility that God is not speaking in the same sense of time that we measure it today.

Here's an interesting tidbit:

1400 years ago it was stated in the Quran that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day. Outside the gravitational field of the sun 1200 lunar orbits / Earth Day turned out to be our local speed of light!!!

www.speed-light.info...

I am was wandering if any one was going to bring up reletivity, thank you. Time is reletive to your position in the universe mainly effected by gravity.

...and doctor I agree that there was a time before genesis picks up some wierd stuff in the world thats hard to explain. hear about that 75,000 year old structure on coast to coast last night. anyway I pose this question; what if the beings in creation where excluded, as in the ark, from the devastation from the angels war and where used to kick start the earth. In earlier versions of the earth the animals where allowed to adapt to thier changing environment and came to thier form 6,800 odd years ago.