"Jesus is a liar"

reply to post by OldThinker


You are correct, there is only 2 alternatives-either He was who he said he was or he wasn't. If he was fiction then disregard most of what he said.
If he was real then pay close attention to what he said, particularly in reference to the 'latter times' DYOR but the best, most readable version of the Bible I have seen so far is 'The Message'. It is written in modern language, more like a novel, with intelligent forewords preceding each book. These help to give background and setting for what follows.
And one last word:- don't confuse God with religion, they are 2 different topics.
If one fails to differentiate between the two, that person will deny themselves an opportunity to learn about the past, the present problems and the final grand solution.
Don't let personal prejudice get in the way of proper research, and don't believe everything you believe-PROVE everything for yourself. If you can't prove something keep an open mind until you can. Regards from OZ.

USMC-oorah!

Thanks for the reply post…even MORE SO THX for your service to our country!

I appreciate it…

and I love your salutation!!!!!!

=====

I would like to respond to the following statement…

You said…

“For all you believers: No matter how much you post about jesus,allah,buddha, or whomever else. If the person doesn't believe it, they don't! I doubt they are doomed to eternal damnation and the world keeps spinning anyways. Don't make it your goal to let the world know jesus is super cool. Get over it.”

I have lived long enough to have changed my mind on a number of things…my ideas, ideals and perspectives have changed over the years…things that were SO important to me 10 years ago, I now laugh at!

People are the sum of their experiences…over time…lessons are learned and we change.

My hope in posting “another” thread like this one, naïve as it may be…is I believe knowledge is a good thing…walking in another boots is a good thing…thinking through an issue is a good thing…

I do agree that Christians can be a bit pushy…it’s not that they think they are better than others…but from their perspective they are throwing out a life preserver to someone who is drowning…

IF the Bible is true and I believe it is…for one an Omnipotent Being, who wants to convey a message could preserve that message rather easily…these issues are of ultimate importance…

Eternity for people…
Comfort in this life with a relationship with God…
Being a force for good in a difficult world…
Being light in darkness…
Being salt to preserve good…

Etc..

Etc...

I’m rambling a bit I know…the bottom line is this…TRUTH IS VERY PREJUDICE, 2 AND 2 IS ALWAYS 4. JC IS TRUTH, HIS TEACHING WERE HARD AND MUST BE BELIEVED OR REJECTED AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER, BUT JUSTICE IS COMING…


"WHO DO MEN SAY THAT I AM?"




[edit on 24-7-2008 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


I'm confused. When did Jesus say he was God?

reply to post by THE-LURKER


But he said he was god and also called god he father so he gave birth to himself.

Originally posted by livelyYou guys really need to read at least a QUARTER of the bible before you question it as if you are a believer. I mean please, be reasonable.

I have read the Bible, The Qu'ran, The Book of Mormon, Most of the Vedic scriptures and compared many versions of the Bible... my book shelves have a copy of every known religion and I am still reading and questioning...

I have spoken with Rabbis, priests, bishops and even had the honor of talking with the Dalai Lama when he was in Toronto...

I have spent 40 years 'questioning' and still do not claim to have all the answers... but I have a pretty good idea whats going on

But since you are so well versed I do have a question for you, well two actually... and I would appreciate your answer...

How many animals of each kind went on to the Ark?

Adam and Eve had two sons... Cain killed Able... was banished and married a woman an became ruler of her people... where did this woman and her people come from?

Yes I know these seem like silly questions... but they are not... and I ask them seriously...

Originally posted by OldThinker
“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Actually, even you as an "ex believer" or what ever you would like to call yourself, as you haven't stated weather you still believe or not, (please don't take offence if I am wrong) you should know, we should know, that if God does exist, then only something as big as the bible, with all the different people writing from all the different perspectives would work out so perfectly.
Kinda proves itself IMO.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

Ummm, please, with Biblical proof (if you still believe in it, and not just logic) provide some sort of evidence to support your case stating that Jesus did infact claim he was Lord. When I, when everyone else, reads about Jesus in the English bible, it talks about how Jesus was God's son. Son of the most high, etc. Jesus never claimed to be God himself, but rather, his son. It was only God's own son that would meet the prerequisites for a death that would provide us all with eternal life. If God himself was crucified, and sent to hell, it kind of wouldn't of all worked out how it did FYI. That just completely wrecked your case by the way.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw…

Okay what? What are they squelling about? That they saw Jesus resurected? And they all got executed at different times, some five years later, some 40. Maybe it's because they had faith, that they didn't give up, but hey, what do I know?

reply to post by OldThinker


Actually, Jesus never claimed to be God.


Keep in mind, that while he was interrogtaed by the Sanhedrin, that he would never deny what his followers said about him in order to save himself. And I think that is the huge piece.

Jesus understood that a persons perspective played a HUGE role in their subjective experience. When the lady poured oil on his head, and his disciples got upset about it, he basically said "Hey if thats how she wants to worship and feel close to God, then let her, she aint hurtin' anyone!"

So it makes sense that since he placed the subjective reality of his followers higher than he placed his own (the real sacrifice in my opinion), that he was not attempting to deal with any "objective reality".

Therefore, he couldn't be accused of being a liar.

Furthermore, it is probably good to point out that he wanted his followers to have as personal of a relationship with the Father, as he had. He tried to tell them that the kingdom of heaven is right here right now, and to be found within each of us, but not many people got that. So he was the Lamb of God, the one who must be sacrificed, the only medium between the collective experience of the objective world, a footstool kingdom, and his individual experience of the subjective world, the Kingdom of Heaven. Truly he is the only way to that.

He danced with reality, as he played out the last few dramas of his own internal struggles through his relationship with his Disciples which eventually became his Apostles, and the World.

When you work with the subjective experience on such an existential level, you are forced to recognize the power that one's perspective and attitude play on one's reality. Specifically through the power of one's self narrative.

So, to say that Jesus was a Liar, is to call all philosophers, psychologists, and exisistentialists liars as well. You might as well add on coaches and teachers too.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Quazga]

Originally posted by USMC-oorah
How many times are we going to have to read a post like this?

There is no force that requires you to read even one of these threads... you came of your own free will...

We all know there is people that believe in god and people that don't. Why do all of you people have to post stupid threads about how god is real, or not real? I could understand if this was the first thread I saw like this, but it's at-least the tenth. Why don't you use the search and read all about how jesus,god, or even religion is not true?

It is human nature to wish to debate their ideas and share with others... This has been the way since man realized he had a brain... Your arrogance shows when you say "Why don't you use the search and read..." Most people in these threads have spent YEARS reading and studying... but that is not enough... words in a book ANY book are not enough... You say religion is not true... HOW do you know this? Did you read it in a book? or did you experience it yourself? You say this is the TENTH thread like this that you have read... yet if you search there are probably a HUNDRED here at ATS alone... so what makes you read TEN threads? Obviously you are looking for something

Will anyone convince the other side? Yes very possible... because many people have not yet made up their mind... and they read the books... and they do not understand...

They talk to preachers... and if the preacher does not understand... then there is more confusion... so people talk to other people... some are calm and comfortable discussing this topic without fear of being 'converted' others are zealots with an agenda... Its the differences that make humanity what it is...

I personally could care less if you do believe in god, or if you don't. I'm a Roman Catholic myself. I'm not going to post a thread titled "I know jesus is real!"

Well sir you just DID and earlier in this post you say "Why don't you use the search and read all about how jesus,god, or even religion is not true?"

If you do not personally care what we believe in why are you here telling us what you think we can or cannot believe in?

I find arguing about religion to be like trying to nail jelly into a wall, IMPOSSIBLE.

Its not IMPOSSIBLE All you have to do is freeze the jelly in liquid Nitrogen and then you can drive it into a drywall wall easily...

If the person believes, your aren't going to sway them! At all! Why do you want to anyways?

I doubt anyone here has the agenda of trying to convert anyone... but if what you say is true... then go explain it to the missionaries that go door to door to save people... tell it to the preachers whose job it is to convert people to their religion and all they have is words...

There are MILLIONS of people in the world that have not made up their minds yet whether to believe or not believe... they do not know which religion is the right one or if ANY is the right one...

Christianity... which version is correct? Roman Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Lutheran? Evangelist? Mormon?

Islam.... Shi`a? Sunni? Kharijite? Sufi?

Judaism... Haredi? Masorti? Karaite? Even in the time of Jesus there was confusion... Sadducees; Hasideans; Pharisees; Essenes.

So yes there are many that come to these threads seeking answers... and why not? Mankind is a social animal wanting support of his peers...

A HERMIT locks himself into a room with a book...

Ask yourself WHY AM I IN THIS THREAD before you tell us why we shouldn't be here

To the OP:
I have just finished reading THe Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot by Bart Ehrlman and i have to admit that after reading it i have come to exactly the same conclusions that you have.
I don't think Jesus was a liar--but I can not believe for a moment that had he posted on ATS about his beliefs, that he would not have been completely flamed and probably banned.
(As are most apocalyptic soothsayers here).
He was an aocolyptic preacher not unlike John Hagee or Jack Van Impe. He preached the end of the world. When the end of the world didn't come, and they didn't get to rule the "New Kingdom" they changed the message--but not their desire to rule in Jesus' name.

Right now, I think Jesus was a nut and his disciples were pretty much power hungry men with their own agenda.
Frankly, I am amazed that Christianity even took hold at all, except for the fact that it became so corrupted it really doesn't resemble the original religion. I do not think there is a single solitary thing that's "good" about modern organized religion and you may as well be pagan as anything.
For the record: I do believe in god--or at least a higher power, I just refuse to believe in any religion with such a long history of violence and prejudice could possibly be a good thing for one's soul.
JMHO.




[edit on 24-7-2008 by scarletm]

reply to post by scarletm

Originally posted by zorgon

I find arguing about religion to be like trying to nail jelly into a wall, IMPOSSIBLE.

Its not IMPOSSIBLE All you have to do is freeze the jelly in liquid Nitrogen and then you can drive it into a drywall wall easily...

I don't get it. People all of the sudden think that Jesus was an invalid guy after reading the "Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot." But of course you will! The guy freakin betrayed the man, of course he is not going to have good things to say about him! And Jesus was not an apocalyptic preacher, he simply preached that we must be read for the end, weather it comes now, in a million years, or fifty years ago. Jesus loved and cared for people (and you would find that if you read Mathew, mark or luke, not just Judas Iscariot or w/e) and he healed people based on faith they had in his father. Jesus wasn't trying to scare people, (although many people would say otherwise) but rather warn them. But hey, what do I know?

"Jesus never claimed to be God"??????

You guys don't know your scripture too well....


John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."


John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."


Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

reply to post by For(Home)Country


I am not basing my conclusion on that Gospel alone. I have done much more study than that.
It was that particular book at this particular time that has me THINKING as opposed to blindly believing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ahh yes, you do have a valid point. In a sense, it kind of confuses me. See here:
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
Jesus claims to be God, but at the same time, claims to be God's (His father) son.

In this verse, he claims to be the son of man, or as I interpret it, the Son of God:
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)

And finally, in one of the most popular verses of all time, we see that God did send his son whom was infact, Jesus:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

So, as we can see, there is much debate over weather Jesus was God's son, God manifested in Human form, God himself, or all of the above.

I just want to say one thing. If you look through out the history of many cultures you will see that a lot Egyptian, Greek, Babylonian etc. All had Sons of God that mirrored the Jesus story.

Even a lot of the secret societies have stories and deities. And another fact is that this man you called Jesus never wrote one story. They are all interpretations by the people around him. Look at the title of every book in the new testament they are "the gospel according to [insert name here]. Look if it helps you to believe in jesus christ or the flying spaghetti monster then that is your choice. But don't try to use warped logic to try and make sense of story that is meant to confuse and suppress you in the first palace.

Simply put we are a small part of this very very vast universe. What makes you think that one religion has the answers to the vastness of existence. Open your mind and follow your dreams literary and you will see that there is more out there.

Everyone one has an agenda on all sides of reality. You just have to decided if you will be persuaded to live in fear or follow love.

-Peace

Originally posted by OldThinker
Jesus is a liar !!!!!!

I wouldn't say that too loud but it looks more like he played god and was taken into heaven and chastised for doing so

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

You need to pray make an act of your faith and belief

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.

At this point i write in red because you are at that place where i must leave you to burn.

He never professed to be god but the people killing and soul raisings are acts of a god. I am still wondering about the halo. It is inconceivable that he would have had this from birth. He may have obtained this by being chastised to the soul. Many pictures show his disciples as having this sign of divinity. Eight of the desciples were taken to heaven with him for this wandering around, doing god things trouble. Perhaps they receive the halo then. Prophecy will fail because you and your weak faith self will rebuke satan an save your soul from eternal damnation, where you are at right now. And as for your proof " I don't believe the Jew and I don't believe you!"
Stop believing jesus is a liar your attack is as good as any cruxifiction, and he we'll remove your sole from heaven because you will not see god unless you accept jesus christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Jesus never claimed to be God"??????

You guys don't know your scripture too well....


John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

As is true for us all. Who wrote John by the way?


Did you read anything in my post above other than that?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Quazga]

Originally posted by DaTruth
Simply put we are a small part of this very very vast universe. What makes you think that one religion has the answers to the vastness of existence. Open your mind and follow your dreams literary and you will see that there is more out there.

Everyone one has an agenda on all sides of reality. You just have to decided if you will be persuaded to live in fear or follow love.

-Peace

You act like there religion is a like a cage that believers are put in, constantly struggling to keep up with the ideologies of itself, and entrapped, not able to control their own lifestyles. Maybe for you it has, but let me tell you something, for me, it hasn't.
Yea, I believe in Christianity, Jesus, and God, and that he is the reason for our exsistance. I've also a developed a fine relationship between me and him, and I see him working in my life, sometimes subtly and sometimes in a big way, all the time. Now, I don't expect you to believe me, but hear me out. Christianity wasn't there to put us in a cage. It was there for us to turn to, because as a believer, it's the reason for our exsistance. Just because I believe in Christianity, doesn't mean I am confined to life living in a cave, praying 24/7. Infact, my future is rather bright, filled with good education and a high living standard. It's up to me to spread the word of God, at all costs, and if you don't believe, well then, to each their own.

But unlike you state, my beliefs don't confine me to a small, fantasy-perfect world, where if I follow every intricate detail, then life is perfect. Thats not how it is, and it never will be.

This arguement stems from the basic belief in the deity of Christ. If you believe he was who he said he was, no problem. If you don't you've got other things you should be concerned about.

As for argument that he "never said he was God" this is bunk but the arguement will never go away, perhaps even when he is ruling from Jerusalem as the promised Messiah.

I've been reading about this due to some comments by some in other threads. I've realized that he never flat said "I am God" becuase he was being totally subservient to the Father. He said "I only do what the Father asks". He never sought to set himself above anyone and as proof set himself as low as he could. If he ever pointed directly to himself he would not have been doing his Fathers will.

For me, I amazed that He would do such a thing for me. That people want to argue about it is amazing.

I think the reason this keeps coming up is because some people are seeing all of the things that are happening and realizing that things are not only nearly out of control but nearly beyond comprehension.
As things progress, I think more and more threads like this will appear. Much to the chagrin of those that not only don't believe but don't think anyone else should either.

God said "Put no graven images before me"

And what do you know? Statues of Jesus everywhere!

Idolatry at its finest

Jesus said he was the Son of God not that he was God.

He said that we we're his Brothers and Sisters- not that we were inherently imperfect little people who didn't stand a chance without his intervention.

Jesus asked that we try to practice Worship as he practiced Worship, not that we Worship him.

His point in claiming his own Divinity and why he was a heretic in his time was not because he just rolled up one day and said "Move over Caeser...there's a new God in town".

His point was that the Divine is inherently a part of us and that we had only to cultivate a personal and intimate relationship with God directly as the causal presence in ourselves- that we didn't have to go through the church or practice any materialistic ritualism.

Jesus was the World's Greatest TruthSayer. That his message has so been so completely misunderstand and misused but still contains enough power transform is the testment to the nature of the Truth he spoke.