"Jesus is a liar"

Originally posted by OldThinker
know one could pull that hypothetical argument or collection of books together, because they don't exist...

I could starting with the Vedic scriptures... but that is beside the point... I wasn't trying to convince you about Aliens... but that was just one topic that covers many cultures and nations... and back then the known world was a LOT Smaller...

Besides considering the God you speak of is not of this Earth than any writings detailing Him, his 'Angels' The Nephilm and the Fallen ones... ALL are in the truest sense ET's

just look at the DEAD SEA SCROLLS version of the old testament, and pick up that Gideon bible printed last year in the hotel room...THEY ARE EXACT!

So you are saying that the DEAD SEA SCROLLS were written in ENGLISH? Or do you mean the translation is the same...?

If I bury Two volumes of Shakespears work and thousands of years from now they are found at different times and locations... why would I be AMAZED that the translation would be the same?

Again, this piece by itself doesn't prove JC is who he said he was/is...

The most interesting thing about Jesus is that there are OTHER works also claiming to be his words... The Rosicrucians hold one set... The Vatican has another set in its dungeons...

The Secret Doctrines of Jesus: H. Spencer Lewis

Following years of extensive research and journeys to the Holy Land and Egypt, H. Spencer Lewis reveals the hidden doctrines of Jesus and what they mean. Part of the Rosicrucian Classic Series.

Dr. H. Spencer Lewis is the author of several books, including Mansions of the Soul, The Symbolic Prophecy of the Great Pyramid, Mental Poisoning, and others. Until his transition in 1939, he was Imperator of the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC. For many years, students of mysticism and philosophy have been fascinated by his timeless writings. His simple, straightforward style reveals a keen insight into the age-old mysteries of life.

"NO DOUBT most Christians will be surprised at the intimation that Jesus taught secretly any divine principles, or practiced any divine art that he did..."

Secret Teachings of Jesus... hidden in Sanskrit and in the Vatican

Originally posted by OldThinker
It's not very probable they would allow this for a mere man, but quite logical if he were God, and they knew it, fair?

Taking a modern example many members of gangs these days would( and do) die and kill for their gang leader, just to belong

Throughout history men have willingly charged to their deaths for just a mere man...

So this is not proof of divinity, though perhaps it goes to mans stupidity

Originally posted by OldThinker
JC said I and the Father are ONE

To become ONE with the Universe is a common phrase found in many New Age religions and ideas...

Timothy Leary and the days of '___' and the Hippies made this famous...

A Cosmic Consciousness that every living thing is part of and that when your mind is ready to expand to the point that you can conceive the entirety of the Universe and Creation then you are ONE...

If need be this could be called God, but not in the sense of a single being

Esoteric teachings lean to this model... and since Jesus was an Esoteric Teacher who spent many years studying in Egypt before beginning his journey... I am inclined to believe this is what he meant by being ONE with the Father... and by "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"

Originally posted by jitombe
All religions are sales pitches to those with weak and simple minds, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Perhaps 'weak and simple minds' cannot understand religion hence the fighting

Was Jesus real, is he a liar? We'll find out when we die, it's going to happen sooner or later. We are not meant to live on this planet forever. The real fun begins after this version of life ends.

Believing in life after death means you have a religion... your hypocrisy is showing

reply to post by OldThinker


OldThinker,

Jesus is NOT a liar. He was the Messiah sent by God to the Children of Israel, bringing the same message as all the Holy Prophets before him. The Worship of ONE GOD. His disciples died for the same testimony. After their death there was a complete apostasy, the Gospel that Jesus preached were altered to suit the interests of the Church established in AD 325, making Jesus God/ son of God.

Jesus has brought the truth and his complete Gospel was preserved in a book which he commissioned his disciple Barnabas to write as a testimony to the Children of Israel and a witness against those who contaminated his true Gospel. This Gospel confirmed what was written in the Torah, and this Gospel was confirmed by the Holy Qur'an, the Final Testament of God to mankind. The fact that these Scriptures agree and confirm each other testifies to the truthfulness of Jesus.

003.081 When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter) ? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.

God made a covenant with the Prophets that they should support the messenger who will come to confirm the Scripture given to them, that is; all the books should agree with each other, seeing it came from ONLY ONE SOURCE. Thus, Jesus confirmed the Torah sent to Moses, and the Prophet Muhammad confirmed the Gospel sent to Jesus, God is witness that the Messengers are true to their covenant. But the people to whom the Scriptures were sent broke God's covenant by rejecting the messengers even though the Scriptures foretold their coming. They rejected Jesus and tried to kill him, and they rejected the Prophet Muhammad even though Jesus foretold his coming in his true Gospel.

061.006 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Muhammad (the Praised One). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

005.012 Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

005.070 We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

004.171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

Jesus did NOT lie, Satan annulled his Gospel by interjecting false doctrine in his teachings and passing it off as Jesus teachings, thus the contradictions.

I would like to add something to this talk:
Beside the lies or the frauds surrounding the man we called Jesus, I have a question.
Why in the early time of Christianity, Pliny the Younger (who lived 62 to 113 AD) reported to Emperor Trajan that the Christians had shocking practices, destructive superstition which had his source in Judea, and a hatred of humanity?
Reference for early Christian belief as “hatred of humanity” to be found at this link:
books.google.com...
kacou.

Reference to the above post that I edited:
I am not talking about Jesus as such but the very early follower which where describe as intolerable from the must advance civilization at that time, similar to contemporary Heaven's Gate cult which we describe as intolerable.

Kacou.

reply to post by OldThinker


Old thinker it was not a personal attack. It was a fact statement.
You challenged me to analyze the argument they used to put him to death to determine as they determined that he was indicating his God-hood.
Look, and you will see it.

You are quite precisely repeating the exercise of Christs inquistition, under the premis that he was a liar.
I meant it quite litterally. I do not care to go there, and certainly not under false pretenses. Christ did not claim to be "God" He could not however deny with honesty who he was. He chose not to be King of the Jews, when tempted with it.

I am not offended. Just disappointed. You believe you can find truth through deception and misconstruction.

I am in the eyes of no Christian, a Christian. However I am familiar with what Christ is purported to have said. I do not know if he was even real, nor do I care.

The concept is sufficient for me. I believe in his philosophy, and I see it as the ultimate metaphysic. Return love for hate!

I hope you bother to look at yourself through the mirror I have held up for you. I do this out of hope and love. The alternative is that I have made the same mistake once again, and violated the rule of my signature.

I would like to explain this quite simply. In each timeline, there exists the ONE who experiences the timeline. There exists one person who is in his head at that moment. If you think of time as linear, you are mistaken. Time, I have gathered, is a giant spiraling vortex of infinite differing lines that all come together in the middle as a singularity. The different lines are intersected by more lines, which are also spiral in nature, but that are arranged in a way so that they perfectly intersect at approximately 90 degrees from the other set of timelines. There is one set of timelines and one set of consciousness lines for each pont... in a very rudimentary way of explaining something that is beyond human comprehension. Each intersection also forms its own spiral of intersecting pathways, which creates an infinite amount of intersecting spirals of time and consciousness. This is all in a dimension that is more than 2 or 3 dimensional, so I'm using a flat plane as a very simplified version of the truth.

As of now... fortunately or unfortunately... I AM the one. I AM God. This is my timeline, and since there are an infinite amount, it differs very little from yours, therefore "comsensus reality" is possible.

In reality, we are all God... or the Son of God, f you look at yourself and creation as the offspring of the God mind. Right now, though. I AM. You are all just riding along on my experience wave. Don't worry. I will be all of you one day.

This is the basic foundation of what Jesus said, therefore, you can find clues to what he said and meant in all of the Christian writings. Therefore, Jesus spoke the truth. When you do not realize who you are, of course you will laugh and say I and Jesus AM crazy.

The fact is that we are all one consciousness and time is an illusion. Time is just the consensus realization that things are changing, when in reality, WE are changing them with our combined collective thought. The emptiness which gives all ideas shape and form. We are nothing, which from whence springs something. We are all magicians and Messiahs.

Realize.

OldThinker... do you think from thought or from being?

well, in the first place I would like to say that Jesus is more or less a fictional character (most rational explanation IMO), religions are means of mass control, and all the unexplained mysteries and miracles can be more or less explained by extraterrestial presence on our planet for many millenia, maybe even much much longer. They've been playing with our primitive minds and the imagination did the rest. I think the whole GOD concept is quite primitive, but can't be proven nor disproven by science. Why? because it's a fairytale. Science is the true understanding of spirituality, not religion...religion is just the wrong way people took millenia ago,and unfortunately it's still moving the masses. It's slowing down our spritual evolution, because it's showing us the wrong way. It's not the question of scepticizm. it's the question of logic.

AMEN

It is one thing to have faith but have faith last minute? I don't get that one. In time you'll know the truth and all you are doing by this thread is helping to fulfill prophecy of Yeshua (Jesus and revelations)). So thanks for doing that.



Almost all the seals are broken. The trumpets have been sounded. There isn't much left but a ww3, showing of anti-Christ, and the last stand. If you knew scriptures you'd know up until this point never in the amount of time has prophecies come true. Even the Mayan are awaiting and Hopi are awaiting (their own Messiah figures).

You play the same game as those who killed him. Pity after all these years and your claim to be a follower. Don't read the bible, it's not what you need. Buy a mirror. If those who killed him did not play the game they would not have made his prophecy come true. Why would you hate the people who made him christ? would you still worship him if he died of old age?



[edit on 24-7-2008 by Brandon Levon]

reply to post by Brandon Levon


I don't claim to be a Christain.

I said that. It happens to be the litteral truth, of what was asked of me on this thread. To make the same evaluations to determine if Christ was lying which they supposedly killed him for. I make no value judgement of the event. I don't care about it. I do not like being lied to and manipulated.
This is my experience of this thread. So laugh away. You do not have the level of reason required to comprehend, let alone judge.

reply to post by Cyberbian

Sorry, I did not mean to offend you, it was simply a question I never see addressed. It seemed to appear upon reading it that I was a little rude, I have changed it and again I am sorry if I offended you. I would also like to add that they are making all of these prophecies come true and they know the weather and the events to come. It was written in stone thousands and thousands of years ago. They have been hidding this so your families will die and theirs will live. If Jesus was a real person he is not the person in the Bible.



[edit on 24-7-2008 by Brandon Levon]

reply to post by zorgon


I can read sanskrit , anyhow,

As regards the original post, I don't think Jesus was a liar I think his teachings have been grossly tampered with. Secret teaching of Lord Jesus...

"The robber who breaks into a house built by man is guilty; but even the least of those who break into a house built by God are the greater sinners. This is why I say to all who want to become My disciples, keep your hands free from bloodshed and let no meat touch your lips; for God is just and bountiful and has ordained that man shall live by the fruits and seeds of the earth alone." ~ Gospel of the Holy Twelve. Lection 38.

I actually believe Jesus said all who follow him should be vegetarian....

Love Lord Jesus, son of God

Great post zorgon.

This is an old argument. It's called C.S. Lewis' Trilemma

This argument became more popular among Christians by Josh McDowell from his book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

Here's the criticism of his book: www.infidels.org...

The argument is logically weak, but rhetorically powerful.

omg
you guys are the ones who distort christianity and make it something fake; something it's not.

1. Jesus is part of the Trinity. ever heard of it before? read about it, look it up --nothing new there. Father, son, holy ghost.
"no one gets to the father except through me" claimed jesus.
when i was younger i tried picturing this in my mind. lol i happened to be at in-and-out burgers near the border and while i was looking at my cup i came up with this: the cup is the father, the whole idea, first, big, containment of all that was and is and can be. The inside drink is the holy ghost, the spirit, the living passion of christ/god/holiness. Jesus claimed that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the bible goes on to elaborate each of these thoroughly. the straw connects you to the cup, which fills you with it's contents. Theresaying, it is one whole package, and it's not really the same if it misses a part, but jesus was the bridge between humanity and god, since adam and eve sinned first and thus broke the holiness that allowed them to be "heart to heart" with him. That is why god sent him, to become adam's "SIN" and so die and be sent to hell, which made humankind, not "holy enough", but "forgiven" for their sins, as it had already been justified and burned in hell. Jesus died, went to hell as he had turned INTO sin itself. You guys really need to read at least a QUARTER of the bible before you question it as if you are a believer. I mean please, be reasonable.
So cup, straw, and water"of life".

Do we really need to turn this thread into a debate if Jesus is real, if God is real, if the Devil is real, if spirits are real, if the bible is real, if other dimensions are real, if we are real? i thought this was about if jesus was a liar?
No he wasn't. The entire old testiment leads and speaks of him. Don't believe me? READ IT.

Comte, nice question. but no, jesus was actually scorned and became an outcast of the Jews before he died. They actually thought that he meant he was going to free them from the roman empire, but he (go figure) didn't mean it that way when he said 'set them free'. Even his deciples denied him and who he was before he descended. One sold him to his death. But he had this planned all before.

READ ABOUT IT.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

I disagree. The Bible is a group of very different stories, loosely in recognition of each other. There are many themes. Is the theme of Matthew the same as the theme of Revelations? The same as the theme of Leviticus? They appear to me to have very different themes, and completely different unrelated stories.

Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God.

Citation? I don't remember Jesus claiming to be God, but rather his son. I also seem to remember him saying that we are all "God's children". So where did Jesus claim to be God's son in a different way than say, me or you? Please point out where in the Bible this occurs.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Modern day prophets, if existing, would definitely be designated to psych wards. It is not acceptable to think outside the box in most modern countries and if you do you are labeled insane and sent to a psych ward.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled.

squill - Spelled Pronunciation[skwil]
–noun
1. the bulb of the sea onion, Urginea maritima, of the lily family, cut into thin slices and dried, and used in medicine chiefly as an expectorant.
2. the plant itself.
3. any related plant of the genus Scilla.

So Jesus followers would have turned into onions which are "cut into thin slices and dried"? What does that mean?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by truthquest]

Originally posted by truthquest
squill - Spelled Pronunciation[skwil]
–noun
1. the bulb of the sea onion, Urginea maritima, of the lily family, cut into thin slices and dried, and used in medicine chiefly as an expectorant.
2. the plant itself.
3. any related plant of the genus Scilla.

So Jesus followers would have turned into onions which are "cut into thin slices and dried"? What does that mean?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by truthquest]

Since his English wasn't perfect I'm led to believe he's not a native English speaker. If so I'm inclined to think it was a typo;


squeal

1. a somewhat prolonged, sharp, shrill cry, as of pain, fear, or surprise.
a. an instance of informing against someone.
b. a protest or complaint; beef.

–verb (used without object) 3. to utter or emit a squeal or squealing sound.
4. Slang. a. to turn informer; inform.
b. to protest or complain; beef.

–verb (used with object) 5. to utter or produce with a squeal.


Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
There is dispute as to whether Jesus was the physical son of God, or if he was filled with God and so became his son at his baptism.

From Wikipedia;

Adoptionism

Adoptionism, the belief that the man Jesus was adopted as the Son of God, was one of two popular Christologies in the 2nd century. One type of adoptionism, such as that held by the Jewish Christian Ebionites, held that Jesus became the Son of God at his baptism. The other type held that Jesus became the Son of God at his resurrection.

[edit] Cerinthus

The first-century proto-Gnostic Cerinthus taught that the Christ (a spirit) came to the man Jesus at his baptism, remained distinct from him (while guiding and teaching him), and then left him at the crucifixion.

No, the God (Yahweh) of the bible, like his contemporaries (ouranos, apsu, etc) in that region of the world, always had a son except they weren't at odds with each other. (There's even a strange narrative that kronos had godlings living inside of him.)

Proverbs 30:3-4

And I have not learned wisdom, neither have I the knowledge of the Holy One. (4) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in his garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?

Proverbs was written way before Jesus' time.