"Jesus is a liar"

Originally posted by wayouttheredude
....You are a part of the divine. You simply need to seek it and you will find.

Welcome wayouttheredude, Glad you stopped by...OT couldn't agree more!

Originally posted by dominicus
OT,
You forgot option #3 ...He was telling the truth.....

Yep, maybe in the OP, but I think I got to that eventually

OT

Originally posted by Grandma
......The "church" today is nothing like the "church" that Christ had intended it to be, but that doesn't mean there are not those of us who are his followers and try to walk in his path. .......Grandma

Grandma, how have you been?

This ole thread, like OT, is waking up.....

OT

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
..........3) He never actually existed
This is a more modern mythology

??????


Evidence please?

Man, you gotta lot of faith....

OT wished he had more!

The Bible is the only Book I know of that can give details of ancient civilisations where archeologists can look into and actually find the evidence, we may not find the Tower of Babel or the Garden of Eden but we know they are based in Iraq. Then you have the prophecy of the Stars link with the constellations.

QUOTE:
There are 12 major constellations. Their modern names, which tell us nothing of their original meanings, are in parenthesis. Each major constellation has three other constellations associated with it which modify or complete its meaning. They are called decans. Because of space, I will list only the major signs.

The Incarnate Son (Virgo) Isaiah 7:14
The Redeemer (Libra) 1 Cor. 6:20
The Sufferer (Scorpio) 1 Cor. 15:55-56
The Conqueror (Sagittarius) Rev. 6:2
The Sacrifice (Capricornus) Romans 3:25
The Living Water (Aquarius) John 7:38
The Liberator (Pisces) Gen. 48:19; Mark 1:17
The Crowned Lamb (Aries) Rev. 5:6
The Judge (Taurus) John 5:22
The King (Gemini) Romans 1:3
The Protector (Cancer) Isaiah 4:5-6
The Victor (Leo) Rev. 5:5

In different books these are all linked over the whole span of the putting together of the Bibe plus over 300 Old Testament prophecies of the Bible about Jesus.

It's a proven fact that if you preach the Bible in some Countries it can be a capital punishment. Although Communism bans all religion, Islamic law bans all other religions too.

reply to post by The time lord

tremendous post, very thorough, ill check back later

OT

This OP is flawed from the get go...

This is quite the popular argument especially with amateur apologists. C.S. Lewis was the first to make it popular and then McDowell reworked it.

I'll quote Jim Perry here on the argument, "It is logically weak, but it is rhetorically powerful..."

It makes the mistake of the informal logical fallacy of false dilemma also called a false dichotomy or in this case a tracheotomy. It involves a situation in which only two (or three in this case) alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options. Closely related are failing to consider a range of options and the tendency to think in extremes, called black-and-white thinking.

From Wiki... "False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice ("If you are not with us, you are against us.") But the fallacy can arise simply by accidental omission—possibly through a form of wishful thinking or ignorance—rather than by deliberate deception ("I thought we were friends, but all my friends were at my apartment last night and you weren't there.")

When two alternatives are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities. This can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be. Furthermore, the options are typically presented as being collectively exhaustive, in which case the fallacy can be overcome, or at least weakened, by considering other possibilities, or perhaps by considering a whole spectrum of possibilities, as in fuzzy logic."

en.wikipedia.org...

The original form of the argument as made by Lewis was ostensibly directed only at refuting the claim, sometimes advanced, that Jesus was a great moral teacher, but not God. In a nutshell: "If Jesus' claims are not true, then he was either lying about them (which is morally reprehensible) or he was deluded into believing them, which would make him a raving madman (whom nobody would respect as a teacher); thus he couldn't have been a great moral teacher." Lewis's version was originally for a radio broadcast, and is probably more properly construed as a rhetorical argument rather than a formal logical one.

This argument is flawed. First it relies for impact on a premise which is is both ambiguous and controversial, which is the question of just what "Jesus' claims" were. Second, it makes unwarranted extrapolations from the general idea of saying something known not to be literally true to the worst sort of malicious lying, and from believing something which is not true to raving lunacy. This second point is dependent upon the first, as the degree to which one can validly make such extrapolations depends on what the claims in question are, but on a reasonable view they go too far in any case.

Addressing this argument requires some degree of caution: the basic criticism lies in the fact that none of the three horns of the "trilemma" actually represent a single possibility, but rather a broad spectrum of possibilities. All that is logically required to refute the trilemma is to show that the decision "Who is Jesus of Nazareth" cannot be reduced to three and only three clear-cut possibilities.

This basic criticism of the trilemma is echoed by Christian apologist William Lane Craig:

An example of such an unsound argument would be:

1. Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.
2. Jesus was neither a liar nor a lunatic.
3. Therefore, Jesus is Lord.

This is a valid argument inferring one member of a disjunction from the negation of the other members. But the argument is still unsound, because the first premiss is false: there are other unmentioned alternatives, for example, that Jesus as described in the gospels is a legendary figure, so that the trilemma is false as it stands.

reply to post by Triarchic


Some of my sources... I also used Wiki, and various other sources to familiarize myself with it. However the argument was an easy one to put down, and I didn't have to do much looking around to disprove it. Hell I could have done it by myself referencing no one or doing any research.

OT, if this is a serious argument that you are a proponent of. I am quite disappointed in you.

Copi, Irving M., Introduction to Logic, fifth edition, New York: Macmillan, 1978, p. 255.

Lewis, C.S. (Clive Staples), Mere Christianity, revised edition, New York, Macmillan/Collier, 1952, p. 55 ff.

Craig, William Lane, Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, revised edition, 1994, pp. 38-39.

Originally posted by Triarchic
......An example of such an unsound argument would be:

1. Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.
2. Jesus was neither a liar nor a lunatic.
3. Therefore, Jesus is Lord.

This is a valid argument inferring one member of a disjunction from the negation of the other members. But the argument is still unsound, because the first premiss is false: there are other unmentioned alternatives, for example, that Jesus as described in the gospels is a legendary figure, so that the trilemma is false as it stands.

OT's honored you went LOOKING....

Now you know...

I've done my job!

btw, are you saying because a fourth option wasn't considered, nulifies the probability of the first three???

Are you a psych major?

OT

I often wonder why no one ever mentions the book of Hebrews when discussing the bible. In all my years in looking in the dirction of God it is the least book I have ever heard quotes from. It is the explaination of the reason why Christ came here and was sent to change the covenant of God, from one reasoning and action to another. This is my favorite book out of all of them. I am a person who allows the instruction to change my life. Jesus is the meteator for us. He comes in many shapes and sized and names, but none the less, I am that I am. nothing in the bible has changed through the years, just our languge of it has, the dictionary is updated and re written over and over for new words, but the bible has also been re written so that it keeps up with our languge. Could you read the written word in Greek today? Would you go to school and read it if it was the only way it was now , 2000 years later? I would not.
It has and I accept that today. It has done nothing but make perfect what was inperfect. Dis-Order into order, it fixes, it unites, it changes he/she for the best, it gives life, but I do not reject the fact that we must particapate in it. Has anyone read the "Apology" (plato) latly? Where does the Gnostic bible come in ? We can spend a lifetime reading and learning, Logic is a result of the gifts. I don't believe God wanted us to never say "Why" I do think that is the "only" question God wants us to ask. Logic to me is a gift, it is given when we begin to put Ideas together. No matter what the process it still will always come to the same logic in the end. God's limitless and to expect anything less is to expect God to just be a man.
I came to a revelation and it said: that God speaks in the languge you will understand. If that was spoken to people in a form and presence called "Jesus" then I accept that. I think God has a name for every human that exsists. If Jesus can speak to me as an instrument of the voice then I will listen, He can speak through numbers, signs, revelations, the mind, the senses, time and space. Truth is consistancy. It never dies. The answers are in the languge not our minds. It has always been in front of us. What we need to learn to see is the invisable, not the visable. See the soul and you see the man. You can only see spirital things through spirital eyes. If you stop debating with men and debate with your personal relationship with the God you understand, God will be over joyed to aid in your quest for the "why"! Thanks for all the posts, and oldthinker I think your right in saying.. that rudenss is not the life of any spiritual thing. Only edification will show proof of It.

reply to post by zorgon

Even into the 1400's there was still editing going on as church elders decided which books should be excluded because they didn't quite have the story right

Not even a point. Some of those books would have to be almost a thousand years apart Zorgon. To see you accomplish that would
only mean that you are God.
SnF for the old thinker

[edit on 9-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by OldThinker


Why are you a Christian if you believe that Jesus was a liar?

I would stake my life on the belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

So-called Christian churches are another matter and most have no connection at all with Jesus.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Why are you a Christian if you believe that Jesus was a liar?

I would stake my life on the belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

So-called Christian churches are another matter and most have no connection at all with Jesus.

He doesn't believe Jesus was a liar, re-read his posts.

Originally posted by OldThinker
“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

That really is a logical option…please read on…

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.



Point 1 ---- Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and someone asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw…

You thoughts ATS-ers?

Jesus said he was God? Depends on how you interpret the original language. He did not admit this in front of Pilate. My friend, I respect your thoughts. I walked away from fundamentalism a long time ago. After reseacrh and reading original language, I don't beleive it anymore. Oh,I think a man named Jesus, acutally several, lived and perhaps was a teacher of sorts. Your Jesus told his followers that they would do greater works than he, and that if we believed in him we could ask for anything in his name and it would be granted. Lies. Who raises anyone from the dead? Who heals the amputees? How many unemployed have asked for a job and instantly got it? Don't bother telling me that God's answer may not be what we expect. He said whatever we ask for, remember?

reply to post by OldThinker


Hello OldThinker!

I think what he is saying that you start a post out claiming 'to use logic'...but then set up a scenario of a question without offering the true balance of answers possible.

The whole set up of the post is not offering that you are logical of the 'full possibilities' -or else- you only offered 3 answers to chose from as possibilities to try to sway the have a very limited possibilities.

Well I sure cant explain it like the former poster, links to citations and all.... but I know they were trying to explain to you in a nice way that your process of thinking or offering of a logical conclusion or what ever.

It doesnt 'nullify' the answers you offered, but it makes one wonder your intentions. Did you even read what the above poster had to say, they said it very well.

All my best
LV


[edit on 19-2-2010 by LeoVirgo]

I only read the first page but your claim is wrong, it was a good observation thou, what you missed is that during creation Christ is with the Lord along with the angels.

Thats why Christ says he was there during creation. He's not claiming to be God and he isn't God, he is the Son of God.

Originally posted by OldThinker
That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

By "every other religion on the face of the earth", I take it you mean Islam or Baha'i ? I know of no other religion, be it Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Druidism, indigenous religions, or even Judaism, that claims Jesus was a prophet.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Why are you a Christian if you believe that Jesus was a liar?

I would stake my life on the belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

So-called Christian churches are another matter and most have no connection at all with Jesus.

He doesn't believe Jesus was a liar, re-read his posts.

Ever hear of guys like John G. Lake, or Smith Wigglesworth? Thats just a small sample.

EDIT: sorry i was replying to aero56. the quote button malfunctioned somehow.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Romans 10:9]

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Romans 10:9]

Jesus = modernized Horus

Horus = confirmed myth

Debates in regards to a mythical character = very silly.

Anyone who doesn't know the origins of their man-god = Lazy, uneducated, and comfortable with being blind.

Jesus is probably not a liar.

Where I'm absolutely certain of is this.

The people who tell you the story are liars !!
Or are in the past lied to and only pass on this lie !!

There is no better example of evidence around then this.

The Vatican. Corruption, murder, orgies, child molesting, filthy rich ( The single biggest owner of real estate in the world. The concilie of Nicia ( they chose at that time in that place, what they wanted in the bible. Everything else was destroyed. Leaving us with almost no evidence around to attack them with. Of course this was not a problem back then. Only the very rich and Church priest to pope could read. The poor were almost without exception illiterate.

Thankfully we were able to find some old scriptures back, hidden from the world.
They suggest everything where the christianity stands for is based on a lie.

You can not blame it on Jesus ! He has absolutely nothing to do with it !
He was long gone before the first letters were written about him. If I'm correct about 40 years. Doesn't this tell you enough all by it self ?

Even if I'm wrong you thread is dead !
He simply can not be blamed for things he was not even around at the time they wrote it , or started telling the lies.

Blame the people !