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"Jesus is a liar"
page: 11share:
moocowman, part 2 in my response…if JC were not born…all the following positives would not have happened…
Impact on the Value of Human Life
• Women. In ancient cultures, a wife was the property of her husband. Aristotle said that a woman was somewhere between a free man and a slave. According to the book Reasons for God by Tim Keller (page 249), "It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. See Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity." In India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. Christian missionaries were a major influence in stopping these century-old practices and ideas.
• Children. In the ancient world, for example in classical Rome or Greece, infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. Killing a Roman was murder, but it was commonly held in Rome that killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. Through a higher view of life, it was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanctide.
• Slavery. While it is true that committed Christians have owned slaves in history, it is also true that slavery was ended in great measure by Christian activists. For example, historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the primary force behind the ending of the international slave trade (which happened prior to the American Civil War). Two-thirds of the members of the American abolition society in 1835 were Christian ministers.
• Gladiators. A 5th century monk, Telemachus is credited as being the pivotal force ending the gladiator spectacles.
• Cannibalism. Missionary followers of Jesus are credited with stopping cannibalism in many primitive societies.
Compassion and Mercy
D. James Kennedy and Newcombe in their book What if Jesus were not born? detail the rise of charity in the name of Jesus over the centuries. This is in stark contrast to history before Jesus. Historians record that prior to Jesus, the ancient world left little trace of any organized charitable effort.
An important aspect to Jesus' ministry was his emphasis on helping the neediest and lowliest in society. For example, his Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) is a classic illustration that is still part of our language today. While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Christian charities stand out. They point to Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens and thrift shops in every community. Jesus has had such an enormous impact on charity that one wonders how different things would be if he had never been born.
The mythical character of Santa Claus points back to Christ. St. Nick unquestionably arose within the Christian tradition.
Education
From the beginning of Judaism, from which Christianity is derived, there was an emphasis on the written word. But the phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation.
In order to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. This trend was accelerated with the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation. Many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.
In America, the first law to require education of the masses was passed by the Puritans. The law was called "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." This name was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.
For the first 200 years in America, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. The emphasis on literacy was so intense in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.
All but one of the first 123 colleges in colonial America were Christian institutions. While these universities have lost their Christian identities, it is interesting to read the founding statements of these schools. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3?
Government of the People
While America's constitutional government is not specifically Christian, it can be argued that its roots are taken from biblical doctrines. Here are just a few possible arguments in this regard:
• America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture. Other constitutions to follow contained many similarities to this one.
• At least 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were orthodox Christians.
• There is no doubt that the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system is a direct result of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of mankind. All of our founders understood the importance of this doctrine to the social order.
• America's foundational idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man traces back to the Old Testament, beginning with the Ten Commandments.
• The idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence is a biblical doctrine.
• The notion of the sovereign authority of God (as mentioned in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical.
• The existence of moral absolutes (a biblical concept) is an important idea in our Declaration of Independence--specifically, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator.
• Many other aspects of our laws come directly from the Bible--for example the judicial, legislative and executive branches trace to Isaiah 33:22. Fair trials with witnesses have numerous Old and New Testament support.
• Regarding civil liberty, founding father John Adams (and others) emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10. Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Jesus himself was the greatest civil libertarian of all time.
Science
Kennedy and Newcombe also argue that science has it roots in Christianity. They point out that other world religions may express a worldview of fatalism (everything is fatalistically determined) or of illusion (that the physical world is an illusion). Science could not have arisen from these worldviews.
Christianity on the other hand, is based on the notion that there exists a rational God who is the source of rational truth. This, they argue, gave rise to the possibility of scientific laws.
Evidence for this view is that nearly all the founders of modern science were Christians. These include men such as Keppler, Boyle, Pascal, Pasteur, Newton, etc.
Free Enterprise and the Work Ethic
Private property rights can be traced to the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:15, 17 (Thou shalt not steal,?Thou shalt not covet.")--as well as to other passages from the Old and New Testaments. Interestingly, there are over 700 references to money in the Bible!
It is noteworthy that Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was written in 1776, the same year as the birth of America. But many historians credit theologian John Calvin from 200 years earlier as the person who is most responsible for putting together the principles that were always in the Bible into a system adapted by the American founders. For example, the biblical doctrines of self-reliance and self-denial are the foundation of the famous "Protestant work ethic." These doctrines are at the heart of our economic (and political) way of life.
A distinction can be made between biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is on the importance of servanthood--a key teaching of Jesus. Evolutionary capitalism on the other hand relies solely on the survival of the fittest. America's anti-trust laws are evidence that American capitalism emphasizes the former over the latter.
Anyone who doubts the relationship of biblical ideas to free enterprise need only to note the stark contrast with communism. Communism is specifically an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good (thus will work for the common good). But communism has been an abject economic failure.
Art, Music, Literature
The influence of Jesus on art, music, and literature is enormous. For example, the Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc.
Had Jesus never been born, music would likely sound very different from what we're used to. There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, for example, signed all his works with Soli Deo Gloria ("Solely to the glory of God").
Art has likewise been magnificently impacted by Jesus. While much modern art seems to debase the human spirit, classical Christian art tries to bring out the best of mankind--pointing us to a higher plane. This is certainly a tribute to Jesus. And think of all the incredible architecture through the years. Especially noteworthy are the beautiful cathedrals in Europe. reference: www.faithfacts.org...
Impact on the Value of Human Life
• Women. In ancient cultures, a wife was the property of her husband. Aristotle said that a woman was somewhere between a free man and a slave. According to the book Reasons for God by Tim Keller (page 249), "It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. See Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity." In India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. Christian missionaries were a major influence in stopping these century-old practices and ideas.
• Children. In the ancient world, for example in classical Rome or Greece, infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. Killing a Roman was murder, but it was commonly held in Rome that killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. Through a higher view of life, it was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanctide.
• Slavery. While it is true that committed Christians have owned slaves in history, it is also true that slavery was ended in great measure by Christian activists. For example, historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the primary force behind the ending of the international slave trade (which happened prior to the American Civil War). Two-thirds of the members of the American abolition society in 1835 were Christian ministers.
• Gladiators. A 5th century monk, Telemachus is credited as being the pivotal force ending the gladiator spectacles.
• Cannibalism. Missionary followers of Jesus are credited with stopping cannibalism in many primitive societies.
Compassion and Mercy
D. James Kennedy and Newcombe in their book What if Jesus were not born? detail the rise of charity in the name of Jesus over the centuries. This is in stark contrast to history before Jesus. Historians record that prior to Jesus, the ancient world left little trace of any organized charitable effort.
An important aspect to Jesus' ministry was his emphasis on helping the neediest and lowliest in society. For example, his Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) is a classic illustration that is still part of our language today. While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Christian charities stand out. They point to Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens and thrift shops in every community. Jesus has had such an enormous impact on charity that one wonders how different things would be if he had never been born.
The mythical character of Santa Claus points back to Christ. St. Nick unquestionably arose within the Christian tradition.
Education
From the beginning of Judaism, from which Christianity is derived, there was an emphasis on the written word. But the phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation.
In order to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. This trend was accelerated with the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation. Many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.
In America, the first law to require education of the masses was passed by the Puritans. The law was called "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." This name was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.
For the first 200 years in America, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. The emphasis on literacy was so intense in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.
All but one of the first 123 colleges in colonial America were Christian institutions. While these universities have lost their Christian identities, it is interesting to read the founding statements of these schools. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3?
Government of the People
While America's constitutional government is not specifically Christian, it can be argued that its roots are taken from biblical doctrines. Here are just a few possible arguments in this regard:
• America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture. Other constitutions to follow contained many similarities to this one.
• At least 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were orthodox Christians.
• There is no doubt that the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system is a direct result of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of mankind. All of our founders understood the importance of this doctrine to the social order.
• America's foundational idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man traces back to the Old Testament, beginning with the Ten Commandments.
• The idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence is a biblical doctrine.
• The notion of the sovereign authority of God (as mentioned in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical.
• The existence of moral absolutes (a biblical concept) is an important idea in our Declaration of Independence--specifically, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator.
• Many other aspects of our laws come directly from the Bible--for example the judicial, legislative and executive branches trace to Isaiah 33:22. Fair trials with witnesses have numerous Old and New Testament support.
• Regarding civil liberty, founding father John Adams (and others) emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10. Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Jesus himself was the greatest civil libertarian of all time.
Science
Kennedy and Newcombe also argue that science has it roots in Christianity. They point out that other world religions may express a worldview of fatalism (everything is fatalistically determined) or of illusion (that the physical world is an illusion). Science could not have arisen from these worldviews.
Christianity on the other hand, is based on the notion that there exists a rational God who is the source of rational truth. This, they argue, gave rise to the possibility of scientific laws.
Evidence for this view is that nearly all the founders of modern science were Christians. These include men such as Keppler, Boyle, Pascal, Pasteur, Newton, etc.
Free Enterprise and the Work Ethic
Private property rights can be traced to the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:15, 17 (Thou shalt not steal,?Thou shalt not covet.")--as well as to other passages from the Old and New Testaments. Interestingly, there are over 700 references to money in the Bible!
It is noteworthy that Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was written in 1776, the same year as the birth of America. But many historians credit theologian John Calvin from 200 years earlier as the person who is most responsible for putting together the principles that were always in the Bible into a system adapted by the American founders. For example, the biblical doctrines of self-reliance and self-denial are the foundation of the famous "Protestant work ethic." These doctrines are at the heart of our economic (and political) way of life.
A distinction can be made between biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is on the importance of servanthood--a key teaching of Jesus. Evolutionary capitalism on the other hand relies solely on the survival of the fittest. America's anti-trust laws are evidence that American capitalism emphasizes the former over the latter.
Anyone who doubts the relationship of biblical ideas to free enterprise need only to note the stark contrast with communism. Communism is specifically an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good (thus will work for the common good). But communism has been an abject economic failure.
Art, Music, Literature
The influence of Jesus on art, music, and literature is enormous. For example, the Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc.
Had Jesus never been born, music would likely sound very different from what we're used to. There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, for example, signed all his works with Soli Deo Gloria ("Solely to the glory of God").
Art has likewise been magnificently impacted by Jesus. While much modern art seems to debase the human spirit, classical Christian art tries to bring out the best of mankind--pointing us to a higher plane. This is certainly a tribute to Jesus. And think of all the incredible architecture through the years. Especially noteworthy are the beautiful cathedrals in Europe. reference: www.faithfacts.org...
Hi OldThinker
Have a close look at the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible (BC 280 to AD 68) & you will see how the transmission of handwritten texts of the OT looked. The counting of 'middle letters' was not common praxis until c. AD 200 (and still exists among Jews copying e.g. the Torah to this day, using the single Leningrad Codex as their 'holy text').
Before about 200AD, there was no onesingle family of texts that was dominant (the old testament books were still being argued about what 'was in' and what 'was out' as late as AD136), and the copying of the texts in front of Hebrew scribes was not as careful as it certainly was in the later middle ages (and today), if we judge from the several scribal hands that made up the Dead Sea Scrolls, which shows that especially before AD 68 (when the Dead Sea Scrolls of Caves 1-11 were sealed up in their time-capsules), the text of the Hebrew Old Testament and Apocrypha and Pseudipigrapha (all found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls as 'scripture') was still quite 'fluid' in terms of actual word for word content, and these text families can be seen more and more 'fluid' (some with writing in the margins which later got copied into later copies) as we go back in time from that point--the only rough exception to the rule being the first 5 books (Gen/Lev/Exod/Numbers and Deuteronomy) aka the Torah which was fairly standardised into 2 or three versions by BC 200 with only minor variations (e.g. amongst the Sammaratim etc.). But even the Torah was quite fluid in the period between BC 400 and BC 200 (as we can see by comparing the Heb Vorlage ('underlay') to the later Greek LXX Septuaginta (compiled around BC 250) with the other text families e.g. the proto-Masoretic Text, the Sammaritan Pentateuch and some other Dead Sea Scroll fragments in Hebrew of the 1st five books.
As for the other books found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls Caves 1-11, there are some great differences (e.g. see all the copies of Jeremiah that don't match) it is clear that there was not much counting of middle letters to make sure the text was letter for letter perfect. Whole lines were added, whole sentences taken out, others re-worded and replaced by new phrases, others plain mis-copied by dittography (copuying a word or line twice) or haplography (skipping a word or line which resembles another line) etc. so that we have quite a mess of 'contradictory' ancient texts to work with in order to 'reconstruct' what the original texts may have looked like.
In AD 90 there was a Council of Rebbes on the coast near Javneh (after the failed Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 66-72 which destroyed Judaea and led most of the survivors off to slavery elsewhere) headed up by R. Hillel II who came from Babylonia (remnants of 20 families of priests still remained in Babylonian Exile after 587BC, who were untouched by the Failed Jewish Revolt against Rome in Palestine in AD 70) with neat copies of the unpointed (unvowelled) proto-Masoretic text (which later became standard text) and his political influence in what remained of Palestine at the time must have been quite large for it was his copy which became 'mainstream' for the Old Testament by and large (later called the Masoretic Text, when the vowells were added to a copy of this family of written 'imported' material from Babylonian Jews around AD 980 near Leningrad. All other text families of the OT were supressed as being bad copies---and the Javney Rebbes did not know that the other text families of the OT and Apocrypha & Pseudipigrapha were hidden away in Caves 1-11 in Qumran in 'timecapsules'.
So in 1946 when the first Arab Bedouin opened up cave 1 and they found copies of the OT amongst other writings 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text...well, there was quite a shock amongst scholars to see just how much the text had in fact changed when comparing texts written PRIOR to Javneh in AD 90 and those written AFTER Javneh, i.e. after the forced Text Consolidation by Hillel II.
Have a close look at the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible (BC 280 to AD 68) & you will see how the transmission of handwritten texts of the OT looked. The counting of 'middle letters' was not common praxis until c. AD 200 (and still exists among Jews copying e.g. the Torah to this day, using the single Leningrad Codex as their 'holy text').
Before about 200AD, there was no onesingle family of texts that was dominant (the old testament books were still being argued about what 'was in' and what 'was out' as late as AD136), and the copying of the texts in front of Hebrew scribes was not as careful as it certainly was in the later middle ages (and today), if we judge from the several scribal hands that made up the Dead Sea Scrolls, which shows that especially before AD 68 (when the Dead Sea Scrolls of Caves 1-11 were sealed up in their time-capsules), the text of the Hebrew Old Testament and Apocrypha and Pseudipigrapha (all found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls as 'scripture') was still quite 'fluid' in terms of actual word for word content, and these text families can be seen more and more 'fluid' (some with writing in the margins which later got copied into later copies) as we go back in time from that point--the only rough exception to the rule being the first 5 books (Gen/Lev/Exod/Numbers and Deuteronomy) aka the Torah which was fairly standardised into 2 or three versions by BC 200 with only minor variations (e.g. amongst the Sammaratim etc.). But even the Torah was quite fluid in the period between BC 400 and BC 200 (as we can see by comparing the Heb Vorlage ('underlay') to the later Greek LXX Septuaginta (compiled around BC 250) with the other text families e.g. the proto-Masoretic Text, the Sammaritan Pentateuch and some other Dead Sea Scroll fragments in Hebrew of the 1st five books.
As for the other books found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls Caves 1-11, there are some great differences (e.g. see all the copies of Jeremiah that don't match) it is clear that there was not much counting of middle letters to make sure the text was letter for letter perfect. Whole lines were added, whole sentences taken out, others re-worded and replaced by new phrases, others plain mis-copied by dittography (copuying a word or line twice) or haplography (skipping a word or line which resembles another line) etc. so that we have quite a mess of 'contradictory' ancient texts to work with in order to 'reconstruct' what the original texts may have looked like.
In AD 90 there was a Council of Rebbes on the coast near Javneh (after the failed Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 66-72 which destroyed Judaea and led most of the survivors off to slavery elsewhere) headed up by R. Hillel II who came from Babylonia (remnants of 20 families of priests still remained in Babylonian Exile after 587BC, who were untouched by the Failed Jewish Revolt against Rome in Palestine in AD 70) with neat copies of the unpointed (unvowelled) proto-Masoretic text (which later became standard text) and his political influence in what remained of Palestine at the time must have been quite large for it was his copy which became 'mainstream' for the Old Testament by and large (later called the Masoretic Text, when the vowells were added to a copy of this family of written 'imported' material from Babylonian Jews around AD 980 near Leningrad. All other text families of the OT were supressed as being bad copies---and the Javney Rebbes did not know that the other text families of the OT and Apocrypha & Pseudipigrapha were hidden away in Caves 1-11 in Qumran in 'timecapsules'.
So in 1946 when the first Arab Bedouin opened up cave 1 and they found copies of the OT amongst other writings 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text...well, there was quite a shock amongst scholars to see just how much the text had in fact changed when comparing texts written PRIOR to Javneh in AD 90 and those written AFTER Javneh, i.e. after the forced Text Consolidation by Hillel II.
reply to post by Chrystostomus
Hi Chrystostomus, Hope all is well my brother, Thank you for the information...I will investigate...this is great stuff you have written. I have much homework to do, and I will...
Have you had the chance to review my prior posts/logic? Am I off-base? What about the Liar, Lunatic and LORD options, and what do you think of the Impact of Christianity post?
I will review what you have detailed...
Please spread the word about this thread, we should have great dialog as an ATS community over this...
OT
Hi Chrystostomus, Hope all is well my brother, Thank you for the information...I will investigate...this is great stuff you have written. I have much homework to do, and I will...
Have you had the chance to review my prior posts/logic? Am I off-base? What about the Liar, Lunatic and LORD options, and what do you think of the Impact of Christianity post?
I will review what you have detailed...
Please spread the word about this thread, we should have great dialog as an ATS community over this...
OT
reply to post by OldThinker
Oldthinker, late response sorry
[
b] Text"OK, here goes… "
The gospels, I am not saying that the characters you quoted never existed, however to date (for me personally to find truth in the gospels) I have found no evidence to prove their historicity if anything I've found the opposite to be true.
EG TheBible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century.
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence.
The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."
So when my children learn about religion at school (which they have no real need to ) and ask about JC I can honestly answer them in that, there is no historical evidence for JC ever existing other than the gospels which have very dubvious origins.
But yet again, the simplest solution is allways the right one, and to quote my CHILD! " IF JC was real and god and wanted me to know something why wouldnt he just tell me?"
Of course, apologists will come up with a million excuses in order to answer that question for their god but at the end of the day they will allways be answers of circular reasoning.
This thread began with "Is JC a liar" perhaps we should ask JC this question and not others
We could look to the bible and use circular reasoning as others do -
I ask the jesus god is it ok to kill other people, his bible laws say no,
Then I ask jesus god what should I do with my son when he gets drunk, the answer is to put him to death.
So here we have a contradiction written into the bible by jesus/god himself. As Jesus god claims to be the truth, but in this instance alone is denying access to the truth he is without doubt a Liar by his own admition.
Fear of Hell has been a powerful tool used by Christian leaders over the years both to gain converts among unbelievers and as a method to control those who had already converted. Even the most liberal denominations support the idea that such a place exists and thereby carry the implicit threat. More conservative denominations make Hell a central theme to many of their sermons.
Is Hell real as they claim? Not only is there no evidence for the existence of such a place, there's plenty to the contrary. The ancient Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, didn't believe in Hell. The Christian concept of this infernal region got started with a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
Oldthinker, late response sorry
[
b] Text"OK, here goes… "
The gospels, I am not saying that the characters you quoted never existed, however to date (for me personally to find truth in the gospels) I have found no evidence to prove their historicity if anything I've found the opposite to be true.
EG TheBible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century.
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence.
The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."
So when my children learn about religion at school (which they have no real need to ) and ask about JC I can honestly answer them in that, there is no historical evidence for JC ever existing other than the gospels which have very dubvious origins.
But yet again, the simplest solution is allways the right one, and to quote my CHILD! " IF JC was real and god and wanted me to know something why wouldnt he just tell me?"
Of course, apologists will come up with a million excuses in order to answer that question for their god but at the end of the day they will allways be answers of circular reasoning.
This thread began with "Is JC a liar" perhaps we should ask JC this question and not others
We could look to the bible and use circular reasoning as others do -
I ask the jesus god is it ok to kill other people, his bible laws say no,
Then I ask jesus god what should I do with my son when he gets drunk, the answer is to put him to death.
So here we have a contradiction written into the bible by jesus/god himself. As Jesus god claims to be the truth, but in this instance alone is denying access to the truth he is without doubt a Liar by his own admition.
Fear of Hell has been a powerful tool used by Christian leaders over the years both to gain converts among unbelievers and as a method to control those who had already converted. Even the most liberal denominations support the idea that such a place exists and thereby carry the implicit threat. More conservative denominations make Hell a central theme to many of their sermons.
Is Hell real as they claim? Not only is there no evidence for the existence of such a place, there's plenty to the contrary. The ancient Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, didn't believe in Hell. The Christian concept of this infernal region got started with a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
The gospels, I am not saying that the characters you quoted never existed, however to date (for me personally to find truth in the gospels) I have
found no evidence to prove their historicity if anything I've found the opposite to be true.
Answer: “OK”
=====
EG TheBible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century.
Answer: “If it were human-made, don’t you think it would be more romantic, fantasy super-heroes, who always wins, in the end? It seems to be pretty true to life. Saul killing Christians, Peter denying Christ, Paul and Barnabas, arguing so much that they had to separate, David (who God loved) killing a man and sleeping with his wife, etc…”
=====
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.
Answer: “CE”, huh? I have to admit you are consistent ”
=====
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence.
The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."
Answer: “Good point here..”
=====
So when my children learn about religion at school (which they have no real need to ) and ask about JC I can honestly answer them in that, there is no historical evidence for JC ever existing other than the gospels which have very dubvious origins.
Answer: “Madylyn Marie Ohare’s son wished he would have learned as a child, he feels cheated, he’s now a minister. Time has a way of encouraging us to change our minds.”
But yet again, the simplest solution is allways the right one, and to quote my CHILD! " IF JC was real and god and wanted me to know something why wouldnt he just tell me?"
Answer: “He will of course follow his dad…”
=====
Of course, apologists will come up with a million excuses in order to answer that question for their god but at the end of the day they will allways be answers of circular reasoning.
Answer: “Valid point!”
=====
This thread began with "Is JC a liar" perhaps we should ask JC this question and not others
We could look to the bible and use circular reasoning as others do -
I ask the jesus god is it ok to kill other people, his bible laws say no,
Answer: NT: Government is ordained to bear a sword to protect/preserve peace
=====
Then I ask jesus god what should I do with my son when he gets drunk, the answer is to put him to death.
Answer: I’m not familiar with that, sounds Old Test……..Your last few lines are a bit unfair
=====
So here we have a contradiction written into the bible by jesus/god himself. As Jesus god claims to be the truth, but in this instance alone is denying access to the truth he is without doubt a Liar by his own admition.
Fear of Hell has been a powerful tool used by Christian leaders over the years both to gain converts among unbelievers and as a method to control those who had already converted. Even the most liberal denominations support the idea that such a place exists and thereby carry the implicit threat. More conservative denominations make Hell a central theme to many of their sermons.
Is Hell real as they claim? Not only is there no evidence for the existence of such a place, there's plenty to the contrary. The ancient Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, didn't believe in Hell. The Christian concept of this infernal region got started with a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
Answer: “I think you are sticking the head in the sand here…way too much evidence of evil…spiritual-demons, etc…practical-watch the news, right?”
=====
Great discussion, thx!
OT
Answer: “OK”
=====
EG TheBible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century.
Answer: “If it were human-made, don’t you think it would be more romantic, fantasy super-heroes, who always wins, in the end? It seems to be pretty true to life. Saul killing Christians, Peter denying Christ, Paul and Barnabas, arguing so much that they had to separate, David (who God loved) killing a man and sleeping with his wife, etc…”
=====
According to Professor John Crossan of Biblical Studies at DePaul University the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (274-337 CE), who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.
Answer: “CE”, huh? I have to admit you are consistent ”
=====
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of God" into existence.
The Church leaders didn't finish editing the "holy" scriptures until the Council of Trent when the Catholic Church pronounced the Canon closed. However, it seems the real approving editor of the Bible was not God but Constantine! This fact is revealed in the second counter-rebuttal to Brian Show's first rebuttal to this article. This counter-rebuttal makes the following important statement and backs it up with FACTS - "Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."
Answer: “Good point here..”
=====
So when my children learn about religion at school (which they have no real need to ) and ask about JC I can honestly answer them in that, there is no historical evidence for JC ever existing other than the gospels which have very dubvious origins.
Answer: “Madylyn Marie Ohare’s son wished he would have learned as a child, he feels cheated, he’s now a minister. Time has a way of encouraging us to change our minds.”
But yet again, the simplest solution is allways the right one, and to quote my CHILD! " IF JC was real and god and wanted me to know something why wouldnt he just tell me?"
Answer: “He will of course follow his dad…”
=====
Of course, apologists will come up with a million excuses in order to answer that question for their god but at the end of the day they will allways be answers of circular reasoning.
Answer: “Valid point!”
=====
This thread began with "Is JC a liar" perhaps we should ask JC this question and not others
We could look to the bible and use circular reasoning as others do -
I ask the jesus god is it ok to kill other people, his bible laws say no,
Answer: NT: Government is ordained to bear a sword to protect/preserve peace
=====
Then I ask jesus god what should I do with my son when he gets drunk, the answer is to put him to death.
Answer: I’m not familiar with that, sounds Old Test……..Your last few lines are a bit unfair
=====
So here we have a contradiction written into the bible by jesus/god himself. As Jesus god claims to be the truth, but in this instance alone is denying access to the truth he is without doubt a Liar by his own admition.
Fear of Hell has been a powerful tool used by Christian leaders over the years both to gain converts among unbelievers and as a method to control those who had already converted. Even the most liberal denominations support the idea that such a place exists and thereby carry the implicit threat. More conservative denominations make Hell a central theme to many of their sermons.
Is Hell real as they claim? Not only is there no evidence for the existence of such a place, there's plenty to the contrary. The ancient Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, didn't believe in Hell. The Christian concept of this infernal region got started with a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
Answer: “I think you are sticking the head in the sand here…way too much evidence of evil…spiritual-demons, etc…practical-watch the news, right?”
=====
Great discussion, thx!
OT
reply to post by OldThinker
Answer: “If it were human-made, don’t you think it would be more romantic, fantasy super-heroes, who always wins, in the end? It seems to be pretty true to life. Saul killing Christians, Peter denying Christ, Paul and Barnabas, arguing so much that they had to separate, David (who God loved) killing a man and sleeping with his wife, etc…”
In response to this , one can only ask, how can a lack of romance validate the the authorship of the bibles (in their various forms), however , the sheer volume of hollywood movies etc which do not function well without the element of romance and heroes, should be a good indicater. If these elements are the criteria for authorship then man made wins hands down
Answer: “Madylyn Marie Ohare’s son wished he would have learned as a child, he feels cheated, he’s now a minister. Time has a way of encouraging us to change our minds.”
Its sad to see a minister feel cheated, for him to harbour such negative emotion toward his parent conflict with what he preaches. When a child who lives in a dry land experiences rain he savours the experience of every last drop.My own children who grow up in the rain take it for granted, I am not denying my children anything I just inform them that there's no need to put up an umbrella until they feel the first raindrop, Suerly man cannot experience what is untill he has experienced what isnt. I'm sure if JC wants to get involved and is god how can I be of a hinderence?
=====
Answer: “If it were human-made, don’t you think it would be more romantic, fantasy super-heroes, who always wins, in the end? It seems to be pretty true to life. Saul killing Christians, Peter denying Christ, Paul and Barnabas, arguing so much that they had to separate, David (who God loved) killing a man and sleeping with his wife, etc…”
In response to this , one can only ask, how can a lack of romance validate the the authorship of the bibles (in their various forms), however , the sheer volume of hollywood movies etc which do not function well without the element of romance and heroes, should be a good indicater. If these elements are the criteria for authorship then man made wins hands down
Answer: “Madylyn Marie Ohare’s son wished he would have learned as a child, he feels cheated, he’s now a minister. Time has a way of encouraging us to change our minds.”
Its sad to see a minister feel cheated, for him to harbour such negative emotion toward his parent conflict with what he preaches. When a child who lives in a dry land experiences rain he savours the experience of every last drop.My own children who grow up in the rain take it for granted, I am not denying my children anything I just inform them that there's no need to put up an umbrella until they feel the first raindrop, Suerly man cannot experience what is untill he has experienced what isnt. I'm sure if JC wants to get involved and is god how can I be of a hinderence?
=====
moocowman, Thank you for the reply...we are getting somewhere my friend...props to you!!!!
Came across these quotes for you that I posted elsewhere...want to make sure you see them..
The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. C.S. Lewis
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
Winston Churchill
The loneliest moment in life is when you have just experienced that which you thought would deliver the ultimate, and it has just let you down.
Ravi Zacharias
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
Galileo
The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter.
William Murray
Absent an absolute moral authority independent of fallible humans, the only meaning “wrong” could have (pertaining to conduct) would be “in opposition to X,” or “falling short of X’s standards,” which are only persuasive to those who have already accepted X.
Calvin Freiburger
The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life.
Oswald Chambers
The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words 'true' or 'false'.
C.S. Lewis
If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true , but rather because of a series of chemical reactions… … Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else.
Douglas Wilson
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?... Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
C.S. Lewis
I can see how it might be possible for someone to look around on earth and not believe in God, but I cannot conceive how anyone could look up into the heavens and say there is no God.
Abraham Lincoln
Science can tell us how to do many things, but it can not tell us what ought to be done.
Author Unknown
If God would concede me His omnipotence for 24 hours, you would see how many changes I would make in the world. But if He gave me His wisdom too, I would leave things as they are.
J.M.L. Monsabre
If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.
C.S. Lewis
Man is certainly crazy. He could not make a mite, and he makes gods by the dozen.
Michel De Montaigne, Essays
The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God.
Johann Wolfgang Goethe
There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.
G.K. Chesterton
Practicing psychiatry without faith in God is like meeting a hungry man and giving him a toothpick.
Author Unknown
We must live with people to know their problems and live with God to 'help' solve them.
Author Unknown
Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.
G.K. Chesterton
A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process.
C.S. Lewis
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
C.S. Lewis
There are two different kinds of revelation, natural revelation, which we find in the world, and special revelation, which we find in the word of God. A basic rule of Biblical interpretation is that we should always interpret natural revelation through the grid of special revelation, that is the word of God. We don't look at the world and then say this is truth, therefore we must conform the Scriptures to what we see. This view is a deadly mistake and would lead to atheism. I interpret science through the lens of the word of God, which presupposes the truth of Genesis 1-3. There is no evidence of higher value or authority than the word of God.
Gene Cook
The traditional form of arguing for God's existence allows for the participants in the debate to stand on the sidelines, like two opposing coaches, in order to look at how their respective teams are doing out on the field. A distinction is maintained at all times between the participants on the field and the spectators along the sidelines. But a transcendental argument, on the other hand, is all-inclusive. A common mistake among those not familiar with this form of argumentation is to assume that it is the same kind of argument as one of the more traditional arguments. This in turn leads to misunderstandings and loud complaints when the transcendental players proceed to tackle the coach, water boy, trainer, and ESPN cameramen.
Douglas Wilson
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
C.S. Lewis
Some people complain because God puts thorns on roses, while others praise God for putting roses among thorns.
Author Unknown
A heathen philosopher once asked a Christian, 'Where is God'? The Christian answered, 'Let me first ask you, Where is He not?'
Aaron Arrowsmith
I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.
C.S. Lewis
No philosophical theory which I have yet come across is a radical improvement on the words of Genesis, that 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth'.
C.S. Lewis
There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.
C.S. Lewis
Whatsoever is good for God's children they shall have it, for all is theirs to further them to heaven; therefore, if poverty be good, they shall have it; if disgrace be good, they shall have it; if crosses be good, they shall have them; if misery be good, they shall have it; for all is ours, to serve for our greatest good.
Richard Sibbes
For when we cease to worship God, we do not worship nothing, we worship anything.
G. K. Chesterton
How often we look upon God as our last and feeblest resource! We go to him because we have nowhere else to go. And then we learn that the storms of life have driven us, not upon the rocks, but into the desired haven.
George Macdonald
Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe.
Peter Kreeft
A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in.
C. S. Lewis
Prayer is not overcoming God's reluctance, but laying hold of His willingness.
Martin Luther
If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped.
Evelyn Underhill
An utterly fascinating illustration of this duping of ourselves is the latest arts building opened at Ohio State University, the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts, another one of our chimerical exploits in the name of intellectual advance. Newsweek branded this building "America's first deconstructionist building." It's white scaffolding, red brick turrets, and Colorado grass pods evoke a double take. But puzzlement only intensifies when you enter the building, for inside you encounter stairways that go nowhere, pillars that hang from the ceiling without purpose, and angled surfaces configured to create a sense of vertigo. The architect, we are duly informed, designed this building to reflect life itself-senseless and incoherent-and the "capriciousness of the rules that organize the built world." When the rationale was explained to me, I had just one question: Did he do the same with the foundation?
The laughter in response to my question unmasked the double standard our deconstructionists espouse. And that is precisely the double standard of atheism! It is possible to dress up and romanticize our bizarre experiments in social restructuring while disavowing truth or absolutes. But one dares not play such deadly games with the foundations of good thinking.
Ravi Zacharias
There are no ordinary people.. it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit.
C.S. Lewis
Out of 100 men, one will read the Bible, the other 99 will read the Christian.
D.L. Moody
The secret formula of the saints: When I am in the cellar of affliction, I look for the Lord's choicest wines.
Samuel Rutherford
It is our wisest and our safest course to stand at the farthest distance from sin; not to go near the house of the harlot, but to fly from all appearance of evil (Prov. 5:8, I Thess. 5:22). The best course to prevent falling into the pit is to keep at the greatest distance; he that will be so bold as to attempt to dance upon the brink of the pit, may find by woeful experience that it is a righteous thing with God that he should fall into the pit.
Thomas Brooks
The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
G.K. Chesterton
If you ask why we should obey God, in the last resort the answer is, 'I am.'
To know God is to know that our obedience is due to Him.
C.S. Lewis
God exist whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God.
Robert A. Laidlaw
Occam's razor states that one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything, however, the simple theory must be able to account for or explain what needs explaining. It's not enough to have a simpler theory if you can't account for anything. Though we shouldn't add entities beyond what's needed, we also should not subtract entities beyond what's needed.
Paul Manata
Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God.
Tom Stoppard
Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior.
Vox Day
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun
Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.
G.K. Chesterton
The most valued attributes of mankind do not come naturally to the human animal; character borrows from the divine.
A.S.A. Jones
What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
A.W. Tozer
Proof That God Exists
Came across these quotes for you that I posted elsewhere...want to make sure you see them..
The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. C.S. Lewis
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
Winston Churchill
The loneliest moment in life is when you have just experienced that which you thought would deliver the ultimate, and it has just let you down.
Ravi Zacharias
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
Galileo
The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter.
William Murray
Absent an absolute moral authority independent of fallible humans, the only meaning “wrong” could have (pertaining to conduct) would be “in opposition to X,” or “falling short of X’s standards,” which are only persuasive to those who have already accepted X.
Calvin Freiburger
The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life.
Oswald Chambers
The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words 'true' or 'false'.
C.S. Lewis
If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true , but rather because of a series of chemical reactions… … Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else.
Douglas Wilson
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?... Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
C.S. Lewis
I can see how it might be possible for someone to look around on earth and not believe in God, but I cannot conceive how anyone could look up into the heavens and say there is no God.
Abraham Lincoln
Science can tell us how to do many things, but it can not tell us what ought to be done.
Author Unknown
If God would concede me His omnipotence for 24 hours, you would see how many changes I would make in the world. But if He gave me His wisdom too, I would leave things as they are.
J.M.L. Monsabre
If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.
C.S. Lewis
Man is certainly crazy. He could not make a mite, and he makes gods by the dozen.
Michel De Montaigne, Essays
The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God.
Johann Wolfgang Goethe
There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.
G.K. Chesterton
Practicing psychiatry without faith in God is like meeting a hungry man and giving him a toothpick.
Author Unknown
We must live with people to know their problems and live with God to 'help' solve them.
Author Unknown
Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.
G.K. Chesterton
A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process.
C.S. Lewis
Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
C.S. Lewis
There are two different kinds of revelation, natural revelation, which we find in the world, and special revelation, which we find in the word of God. A basic rule of Biblical interpretation is that we should always interpret natural revelation through the grid of special revelation, that is the word of God. We don't look at the world and then say this is truth, therefore we must conform the Scriptures to what we see. This view is a deadly mistake and would lead to atheism. I interpret science through the lens of the word of God, which presupposes the truth of Genesis 1-3. There is no evidence of higher value or authority than the word of God.
Gene Cook
The traditional form of arguing for God's existence allows for the participants in the debate to stand on the sidelines, like two opposing coaches, in order to look at how their respective teams are doing out on the field. A distinction is maintained at all times between the participants on the field and the spectators along the sidelines. But a transcendental argument, on the other hand, is all-inclusive. A common mistake among those not familiar with this form of argumentation is to assume that it is the same kind of argument as one of the more traditional arguments. This in turn leads to misunderstandings and loud complaints when the transcendental players proceed to tackle the coach, water boy, trainer, and ESPN cameramen.
Douglas Wilson
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
C.S. Lewis
Some people complain because God puts thorns on roses, while others praise God for putting roses among thorns.
Author Unknown
A heathen philosopher once asked a Christian, 'Where is God'? The Christian answered, 'Let me first ask you, Where is He not?'
Aaron Arrowsmith
I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.
C.S. Lewis
No philosophical theory which I have yet come across is a radical improvement on the words of Genesis, that 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth'.
C.S. Lewis
There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.
C.S. Lewis
Whatsoever is good for God's children they shall have it, for all is theirs to further them to heaven; therefore, if poverty be good, they shall have it; if disgrace be good, they shall have it; if crosses be good, they shall have them; if misery be good, they shall have it; for all is ours, to serve for our greatest good.
Richard Sibbes
For when we cease to worship God, we do not worship nothing, we worship anything.
G. K. Chesterton
How often we look upon God as our last and feeblest resource! We go to him because we have nowhere else to go. And then we learn that the storms of life have driven us, not upon the rocks, but into the desired haven.
George Macdonald
Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe.
Peter Kreeft
A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in.
C. S. Lewis
Prayer is not overcoming God's reluctance, but laying hold of His willingness.
Martin Luther
If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped.
Evelyn Underhill
An utterly fascinating illustration of this duping of ourselves is the latest arts building opened at Ohio State University, the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts, another one of our chimerical exploits in the name of intellectual advance. Newsweek branded this building "America's first deconstructionist building." It's white scaffolding, red brick turrets, and Colorado grass pods evoke a double take. But puzzlement only intensifies when you enter the building, for inside you encounter stairways that go nowhere, pillars that hang from the ceiling without purpose, and angled surfaces configured to create a sense of vertigo. The architect, we are duly informed, designed this building to reflect life itself-senseless and incoherent-and the "capriciousness of the rules that organize the built world." When the rationale was explained to me, I had just one question: Did he do the same with the foundation?
The laughter in response to my question unmasked the double standard our deconstructionists espouse. And that is precisely the double standard of atheism! It is possible to dress up and romanticize our bizarre experiments in social restructuring while disavowing truth or absolutes. But one dares not play such deadly games with the foundations of good thinking.
Ravi Zacharias
There are no ordinary people.. it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit.
C.S. Lewis
Out of 100 men, one will read the Bible, the other 99 will read the Christian.
D.L. Moody
The secret formula of the saints: When I am in the cellar of affliction, I look for the Lord's choicest wines.
Samuel Rutherford
It is our wisest and our safest course to stand at the farthest distance from sin; not to go near the house of the harlot, but to fly from all appearance of evil (Prov. 5:8, I Thess. 5:22). The best course to prevent falling into the pit is to keep at the greatest distance; he that will be so bold as to attempt to dance upon the brink of the pit, may find by woeful experience that it is a righteous thing with God that he should fall into the pit.
Thomas Brooks
The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
G.K. Chesterton
If you ask why we should obey God, in the last resort the answer is, 'I am.'
To know God is to know that our obedience is due to Him.
C.S. Lewis
God exist whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God.
Robert A. Laidlaw
Occam's razor states that one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything, however, the simple theory must be able to account for or explain what needs explaining. It's not enough to have a simpler theory if you can't account for anything. Though we shouldn't add entities beyond what's needed, we also should not subtract entities beyond what's needed.
Paul Manata
Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God.
Tom Stoppard
Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior.
Vox Day
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun
Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.
G.K. Chesterton
The most valued attributes of mankind do not come naturally to the human animal; character borrows from the divine.
A.S.A. Jones
What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
A.W. Tozer
Proof That God Exists
reply to post by darkelf
or an honestly misinformed person
...or a nonexistent character meant to convey some sort of meaning
...or a nonexistent character meant to deceive many
etc...
there are always more options
or an honestly misinformed person
...or a nonexistent character meant to convey some sort of meaning
...or a nonexistent character meant to deceive many
etc...
there are always more options
Originally posted by OldThinker
moocowman, Thank you for the reply...we are getting somewhere my friend...props to you!!!!
Came across these quotes for you that I posted elsewhere...want to make sure you see them..
The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
...um...
so you're defaming the sum total of all atheists in the world?
wow, that's a bit harsh.
i've been an atheist for a few years now, i live a good life, and i don't like being compared to a thief.
...i'm not going to bother addressing the quotes you posted, that would require multiple posts and i just don't feel like giving myself a headache from repeated exposure of my head to my desk...
madnessinmysoul,
Thank you for joining in...no offense intended..
In a letter to the Roman Christians the Apostle Paul said,
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.”
“Invisible attributes…
…by what he MADE…
…so people are WITHOUT excuse…
Don't bother replying to all that content/quotes...you'll have them, should you ever need it...
What we see, you would agree is an 'effect', with 'design' got to be a 'cause' right?
[edit on 1-8-2008 by OldThinker]
Thank you for joining in...no offense intended..
In a letter to the Roman Christians the Apostle Paul said,
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.”
“Invisible attributes…
…by what he MADE…
…so people are WITHOUT excuse…
Don't bother replying to all that content/quotes...you'll have them, should you ever need it...
What we see, you would agree is an 'effect', with 'design' got to be a 'cause' right?
[edit on 1-8-2008 by OldThinker]
reply to post by OldThinker
Hi old thinker sorry for the late response, I been lost in the illusion of time
Great discussion thx, some interesting writings from people who are obviously smarter than I. I'm not an atheist by the way
Nevertheless, I have very little time for religions and find the bible (all versions that i've had nose at) 99.99% garbage with the remainder being some elements of great truth.
I had a bash at reading the quran(however it's spelled) a time back and as i recall found it to be hogwash.
For me the most denouncing contradition of the bible, is that it's alledged god (and author) that turns into JC in the gospel narrative, would treat any human (which obviously includes myself) with far less respect (let alone love) than I do my own child.
It is repugnant to me, that in order to chastise a child one should resort to physical violence and yet this is how my alledged creator behaves according to the writings alledgedly written by him.
And this is how society has behaved
I personally find capital punishment unacceptable, especially for minor misdameanours such as working on the sabbath to name but one.
And this is how society has behaved
I find it completely repugnant that, should a parent no longer be allowed to inflict violence against their child, that they would resort to terrorising the child with eternal violence and torture in order to force it to comply by their rules.
And this is how society has behaved
Is it not deeply saddening that I could have higher moral values than my alledged creator?
I have many rules in my house and I'm sure my children will have their own in theirs, it will be their choice.
I also have values and morals, some I have absorbed from my parents but most i have developed myself from what I observe does and does not work in human interaction and personal failings.
My children may break the rules but it appears punishment does not do what it's meant to do, in that it does not teach the child anything and may not prevent a reocurrance. It would appear that a deep insight into the effect of the transgression has a far greater impact and doesn't impinge on the childs critical freethinking or instill a climate of fear. And this takes time lots of time.
Hopefully my kids will absorbe some of my values, enough to allow them to understand how they effect other people and not cause serious harm to others and equally themselves. However my values are unique to me, and so they should be, it is my life for me to observe and my values can allways improve and may raise to that of others.
Having my children try to live my values and ethics etc would be impinging on their observations of their life experience and would be nothing more than a control experiment, hindering their own learning experiences be they positive or negative.
It is unacceptable to me, that the creator of everything could be a mercyless killer who would have its own creation suffer for one second let alone an eternity, for being how it was created.
It's unacceptable to me that the creator of eveything could be jealous or hurt at all, let alone by words or a thought.
It's unacceptable to me that, that which is supposed to be perfect love and patience could possibly display the emotion of anger or hate.
But what is most unacceptable to me is, that which has supposed to have created me could possibly think or act at any time in a manner that would make me ashamed or embarresed of its beahviour,
The bible is completely unacceptable to me, the arguments over authenticity and authors can go on forever, only continuing to mask the real truth, which is, religion simply doesnt work it's had enough time.
Hi old thinker sorry for the late response, I been lost in the illusion of time
Great discussion thx, some interesting writings from people who are obviously smarter than I. I'm not an atheist by the way
Nevertheless, I have very little time for religions and find the bible (all versions that i've had nose at) 99.99% garbage with the remainder being some elements of great truth.
I had a bash at reading the quran(however it's spelled) a time back and as i recall found it to be hogwash.
For me the most denouncing contradition of the bible, is that it's alledged god (and author) that turns into JC in the gospel narrative, would treat any human (which obviously includes myself) with far less respect (let alone love) than I do my own child.
It is repugnant to me, that in order to chastise a child one should resort to physical violence and yet this is how my alledged creator behaves according to the writings alledgedly written by him.
And this is how society has behaved
I personally find capital punishment unacceptable, especially for minor misdameanours such as working on the sabbath to name but one.
And this is how society has behaved
I find it completely repugnant that, should a parent no longer be allowed to inflict violence against their child, that they would resort to terrorising the child with eternal violence and torture in order to force it to comply by their rules.
And this is how society has behaved
Is it not deeply saddening that I could have higher moral values than my alledged creator?
I have many rules in my house and I'm sure my children will have their own in theirs, it will be their choice.
I also have values and morals, some I have absorbed from my parents but most i have developed myself from what I observe does and does not work in human interaction and personal failings.
My children may break the rules but it appears punishment does not do what it's meant to do, in that it does not teach the child anything and may not prevent a reocurrance. It would appear that a deep insight into the effect of the transgression has a far greater impact and doesn't impinge on the childs critical freethinking or instill a climate of fear. And this takes time lots of time.
Hopefully my kids will absorbe some of my values, enough to allow them to understand how they effect other people and not cause serious harm to others and equally themselves. However my values are unique to me, and so they should be, it is my life for me to observe and my values can allways improve and may raise to that of others.
Having my children try to live my values and ethics etc would be impinging on their observations of their life experience and would be nothing more than a control experiment, hindering their own learning experiences be they positive or negative.
It is unacceptable to me, that the creator of everything could be a mercyless killer who would have its own creation suffer for one second let alone an eternity, for being how it was created.
It's unacceptable to me that the creator of eveything could be jealous or hurt at all, let alone by words or a thought.
It's unacceptable to me that, that which is supposed to be perfect love and patience could possibly display the emotion of anger or hate.
But what is most unacceptable to me is, that which has supposed to have created me could possibly think or act at any time in a manner that would make me ashamed or embarresed of its beahviour,
The bible is completely unacceptable to me, the arguments over authenticity and authors can go on forever, only continuing to mask the real truth, which is, religion simply doesnt work it's had enough time.
Originally posted by OldThinker
What we have in our hands has been touched by human hands...but the consistency is uncanny...
Only when you read with blinders on. It is consistenty harebrained and that's all.
www.infidels.org...
biblicalfallacies.blogspot.com...
www.greenwych.ca...
www.etymonline.com...
And one of my favorites.
www.geocities.com...
Hi Lilitu, (and others online now)
Thanks for the response…here’s some evidence on my side…but the chances are you won’t have time to look all these over…so here’s my best shot….skip down to the bottom two…I double dawg dare to listen to them…
www.answersingenesis.org...
www.josh.org...
www.icr.org...
www.xmission.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.equip.org...
==========================================================
www.youtube.com...
And if that spark’s your interest…go here…It is the greatest talk ever given (in my mind)
www.tonycampolo.org...
it’s called “its Friday but Sundays Coming…enjoy…please listen and reply, ok?
Thanks for the response…here’s some evidence on my side…but the chances are you won’t have time to look all these over…so here’s my best shot….skip down to the bottom two…I double dawg dare to listen to them…
www.answersingenesis.org...
www.josh.org...
www.icr.org...
www.xmission.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.equip.org...
==========================================================
www.youtube.com...
And if that spark’s your interest…go here…It is the greatest talk ever given (in my mind)
www.tonycampolo.org...
it’s called “its Friday but Sundays Coming…enjoy…please listen and reply, ok?
Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker
You said, "Nevertheless, I have very little time for religions and find the bible (all versions that i've had nose at) 99.99% garbage..."
=====
m-man,
Thx I agree with much the church does and believes is repugnant...
Question for you...
If God is omnipotent...couldn't HE see to it that the message is preserved?
OT
ps: Can you explain to me why we had hit after hit...with this thread...and then all of a sudden, it stopped?????
reply to post by zorgon
This is my thoughts;
To thread starter
If you went to five differnt people in five different time zones and 3 where jews and two where christians.I feel you would end up with the BIBLE pretty much. Now if they where not perticulary religious then I can see your conclusion.
but what I dont understand is where the first part of your post(time travel) has anything to do with your last question!???
I am a Nestorian as far as a certain belief and that is that Jesus was not all god he was the son of god but was a man too.
Like the story of the fig tree to me shows anger, vengance, and non faith.
[edit on 07/07/08 by bugs_n_recovery]
This is my thoughts;
To thread starter
If you went to five differnt people in five different time zones and 3 where jews and two where christians.I feel you would end up with the BIBLE pretty much. Now if they where not perticulary religious then I can see your conclusion.
but what I dont understand is where the first part of your post(time travel) has anything to do with your last question!???
I am a Nestorian as far as a certain belief and that is that Jesus was not all god he was the son of god but was a man too.
Like the story of the fig tree to me shows anger, vengance, and non faith.
[edit on 07/07/08 by bugs_n_recovery]
Bugs…
Thanks for your input…
OK, why do you say they were religious…and in your mind, what does that mean? When you have some time, please do some research on the personalities of the biblical characters…you will find a pretty diverse bunch…way different locations where they lived…way different time zones …different languages…greek, aramaic, hebrew, others, etc…
Yet the theme…links…over the centuries…I mean hundreds of years between the publishing…really long time…
The time travel question was a hypothetical illustration to make the argument…being able to some how go to those different times…to gather the information…66 books and 40 authors…that is a whole lot of input/information…from very very different sources…YET THE CONSISTENCY IS UNARGU-ABLE…at least in my mind…
I absolutely agree with you that Jesus was devine and human at the same time…the issue is, please listen here…the issue is… a human must have been sacrificed to ‘atone’ for sin…the Bible not only say HE was human…but that HE BECAME sin…yes, became SIN…and paid the penalty for ALL. THIS IS GOOD NEWS, FOR ALL ATS-ers…He loves you…and is not concerned whatsoever, with your wrong beliefs.
Wrong beliefs, stupid, un-informed beliefs will never keep anyone, ‘anyone’ from heaven, as long as that person with wrong beliefs, at some point in their life acknowledge a need to Jesus, the anointed one…sorry for the ‘religious’ rant…
But God IS love……yes He IS love!
OT
Philippians 1:3
Thanks for your input…
OK, why do you say they were religious…and in your mind, what does that mean? When you have some time, please do some research on the personalities of the biblical characters…you will find a pretty diverse bunch…way different locations where they lived…way different time zones …different languages…greek, aramaic, hebrew, others, etc…
Yet the theme…links…over the centuries…I mean hundreds of years between the publishing…really long time…
The time travel question was a hypothetical illustration to make the argument…being able to some how go to those different times…to gather the information…66 books and 40 authors…that is a whole lot of input/information…from very very different sources…YET THE CONSISTENCY IS UNARGU-ABLE…at least in my mind…
I absolutely agree with you that Jesus was devine and human at the same time…the issue is, please listen here…the issue is… a human must have been sacrificed to ‘atone’ for sin…the Bible not only say HE was human…but that HE BECAME sin…yes, became SIN…and paid the penalty for ALL. THIS IS GOOD NEWS, FOR ALL ATS-ers…He loves you…and is not concerned whatsoever, with your wrong beliefs.
Wrong beliefs, stupid, un-informed beliefs will never keep anyone, ‘anyone’ from heaven, as long as that person with wrong beliefs, at some point in their life acknowledge a need to Jesus, the anointed one…sorry for the ‘religious’ rant…
But God IS love……yes He IS love!
OT
Philippians 1:3
reply to post by Lilitu
Lilitu,
Hi!
Forget about me?
Did you have time to look at the youtube?
And listen to that audio, I sent you?
Just checking in...no biggy!
Lilitu,
Hi!
Forget about me?
Did you have time to look at the youtube?
And listen to that audio, I sent you?
Just checking in...no biggy!
Originally posted by OldThinker
Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker
Hi old thinker, again sorry for the late response, trying to keep up I signed up for ATS months and months ago but have only posted this week so has taken a while to work my way around.
"Question for you...
If God is omnipotent...couldn't HE see to it that the message is preserved?"
Surely this can only raise more questions, like -
Why would the creator of everything the entity that would have all knowledge and awareness of all time, be anything like a man?
Surely it is the writers of the bibles/religions and their followers have created the mind of the universe like a man .
If we are to proceed with a presumtion that there is a creator of everything,how can it be anything other than mind?
How can mind/thought/spirit the all that is have a gender, if it is perfect love/compassion how can it be anything other than an intangable emotion that we have tried to describe in words and pictures.
Why should there be a message ? If the creator of everything is all that there is how could we possibly be seperate from it, for it to fail in having us know something ? But could question actually be "The" messsage?
Perhaps those that perceived to be messangers were, in fact thought tools hidden in plain sight but perverted by those who would manipulate and control.
How destructive is it for those that would have control and power, to have its minions learn very simple truths, that would bring their control to an end?
What simpler more staggeringly earth changing message could there be than "WE and the father are one" an yet just changing one word keeps humanity in the illusion of being seperate from its creator.
And if this is the case how can we be anything other than the message itself? yet a system was devised which obscured the message which has been there since the begining(yet all is now?) and is still doing so today.
By having the focus on the messanger the message is surely lost, thus allowing those that create the focus to keep whatever power or control they have ?
If the kingdom of heaven is here then surely the creater is here, if the creator is here and we and the creator are one, then how can there be anything else?
Could we not be the observer and the observed in the quantum world ?
Did a very few in our past create a very simple message that when the shackles of doctrine and dogma and control are removed for a short time,would come through loud and clear regardless of attempts to distort it?
"ps: Can you explain to me why we had hit after hit...with this thread...and then all of a sudden, it stopped?????"
Perhaps the closer we get to the truth the less we want to accept it?
Perhaps we are contented in our lives where we have no accountabilty for the world we live in, we dont have to face up to consequences of our own actions and beliefs etc?
If we are seperate from the creator then somone else can think for us ? who knows dude?
What I do know is, with all this floating around in my swede I wont be able to focus on the mind numbing tv tonight
reply to post by OldThinker
Sorry about the confused editing on my last reply, I'm still trying to get the hang of this quote thing but I'm sure you'll decipher my responce
Sorry about the confused editing on my last reply, I'm still trying to get the hang of this quote thing but I'm sure you'll decipher my responce
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