Hackers, disinformation and the combat of curisoity

I think i could say with some accuracy that i am a hacker. Not a good one - i wouldn't pretend to have anything like the specialist knowledge, especially as i'm typing this from a machine running MS Windows (flameflameflame) - but a hacker nevertheless.

I don't spend my time gaining illegal access to systems around the world. I don't disassemble and unlock proprietary software (it would after all be a little counter-productive to my sideline in bespoke software develoment). Long story short, i subscribe to the old school definition of "hack" - as the verb meaning, losely, to mess around with something you don't understand until you do - for the fun of learning and discovery.

Back when definition 3 b at dictionary.com would have been the main choice, a 'hacker' could be interested in anything from extreme ironing to cooking (although i'm not sure whether the prior was actually around at that point...) - and having the term applied to you was, in some circles, a mark of respect.

However, as computers developed - and began traversing the boundaries between academic and vital business use - a new breed appeared. They were interested in computers, but only in the exploitation of computers for their own gain - financial or egotistical - by writing virii, finding software flaws or socially engineering illegal data access. And they also labelled themselves hackers.

The hacking community at large began to use a variety of derogatory terms to denote these newcomers, such as script kiddie or crackers but the media - and therefore the western world at large - refused to budge. The 'hacker' of modern society's invention is one of two archetypes: some pale teenager in his 'mom's' (stupid american english...) attic typing away with the DOS prompt until 4 am and spending the rest of the day generally failing to experience life, or the 'Swordfish' style super-criminal - funding organised crime by targeting bank systems and generally stealing whatever isn't virtually nailed down.

I put it you, the reader, that the media is deliberately besmirching the image of a community based on experimentation in the search for truth - a community which, at its core, bears so much in common with that of this message board (don't get me started on the projected hillbilly image of conspiracy theorists...) - in order to actively discourage society from seeking understanding of the computer systems which have come to dominate their lives. I say this citing also that intelligence in general is now considered an undesirable quality in society as a whole - since every medium from TV to magazines is portraying the "nerd" as a hilariously socially inept character to be looked down upon by the retarded masses.

I'm no NWO conspiracy theorist - but is it just me, or is the curisoity of humanity being actively attacked, what with entertainment saturation of society and the portrayal of attractiveness and wealth being life's major successes? Instead of exploring the world around us and finding out new and valuable things, we are cultured to sit on our asses watching daytime TV, or stuck in some routine job to wear down our interest in life. Scientific research budgets are slashed in favour of footballer's wages and the excess of CEOs, and the most intelligent and skilled people are often given the lowest pay in industry - from public healthcare staff to bench scientists and engineers. Not only is this actively encouraging dysgenics, but I for one get the feeling that someone wants us stupid, particularly where computers are concerned...


(I'm a little unsure of what kind of relevant websites could be linked to here - im guessing tutorials - while easy to find - are off the cards, but ill try to navigate the gray areas of legality here..)

For those i've failed to convince - you may be interested in:

*SNIP*

I could go on...




ModEdit :removed links breaching the T&C


Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 7/23/2008 by JacKatMtn]

Hacker just sounds better than some cookie or fireworks in the basement. Most old school hackers are gone from forums anyway. Some still lurk and most spend time at very different forums than the ones where young people reside..

The evolution of the word itself as culture changes is undeniable - but the connotations associated with it are largely creations of scaremongering.

I wish i could contradict you that the boards are all filled with kiddies now, but its true - the end result doesn't explain the abandonment of the search for knowledge though.

seeing as cracking is applied hacking, why not call mathematicians physicists? I see the point about ease of use of the word - but surely it wouldnt be so hard to change that little h to a 'cr'?

But of course this isnt just about the semantics - its the trend of society as a whole. When did we stop being curious about 'black box' technology? The idea of using something without even a vague idea of its working seems wrong, no? to me its on a par with allowing Hitler to set forth his "emergency powers" - just asking for the badness to hit the fan!

1) Obligatory flaming for admitting to using Widows while claiming to be a hacker (but you only use it for games right?).
2) Point out irony of claiming to be a hacker while using the user name ScriptKiddie.
3) Basement is preferable to attic, less light.
4) DOS prompt? Really?

I'm joking so don't take it seriously, well except the DOS prompt thing, I mean really...

The news like using "Hacker" because it is ominous and scary sounding, cause lets face it the only time they using it in the news is when they are talking about something bad right? In recent years they have started to romanticize the hacker image in entertainment but is still usually used when something illegal needs to be whether it be for the "good" guys or the "bad" guys.

It's a stereotype like any other and tries to force people into a mold because lazy people like being able to label and organize things without having to think too hard. If your tall you play basket ball, if your bulky you play football, if your attractive you get whatever you want, if your good with computers your rejected by everyone till something breaks, the "bad" guys always wear dark clothes, the US always saves the day, etc. The media reinforces theses stereotypes because that's what works so why shake the boat?

I do agree that there is a general push to get people to not learn things, it drilled into people through advertisements all the time "We take care of the hard stuff", "Who has the time?", etc. Not just for computers, but for anything. "Just call us and we'll do it for you." But that's what happens in a service based economy, if everybody did things themselves then there would be no services to provide. The education system is broken too, teaching students to regurgitate test answers instead of understanding concepts.

However, like many things computers are complex, I don't expect people to know everything about them and I don't talk down to them or belittle them for not knowing. As long as they are willing to learn I think it is great and I will teach them. It's when people just want it done and don't care about learning when I have a problem.

Learning makes people think, thinking makes people ask questions, people asking questions, aren't subservient, people who aren't subservient make bad slaves, bad slaves see through the bread and circuses.

reply to post by deadboi


1) deserved - hanging head in shame...
2) irony intended, but points for noticing
3) dammit if only we'd had one... this darn tan of mine *sniff*
4) Oooooooooooooooooold school - and Bash, if it makes you any happier

And yes, the romanticising got about as far as that corny film if i remember (good watch tho, so long as you try not to think about anything they say...)

The service based economy does appear to be driving a negative froce - i can't help but wonder if the freeware concept will eventually grow to eliminate other sectors and reverse this to some extent? freeware electronics seems to be a good starting point, but i'm sure at some point we will go further. Apparently cross-platform java office apps are the way to go for unity now as well - promising for users with Linux compatability concerns!

Anyway, to the point:- i agree that computers are complex. I dont think the whole world should be able to design and construct a cell processor, or even code a "Hello world" - just have an understanding of the machines that practically govern our lives fit for the level of control they have over us. It is the unawareness for the potential damage that is dangerous, and that is being actively cultivated. I honestly believed we were ok until I saw a youtube video of supermodels being taught to change a CPU i think it was - only the hardware, not making it worse.

One refused to accept that the computer wasnt inside the screen, for god's sake...

I know all our mandatory IT education in the UK gives kids is an understanding in the use of MS Office - NOT good. Tutorials are easy to find - as they should be, but i really don't think many people go looking any more.

I applaud your observations ScriptKiddie.

Yes the media has successfully been a tool to shape and mold our society to be perfect dumb American slaves.

Being in the IT field for 10+ years myself I can relate and agree with everything you said there. In the modern world it is socially unacceptable to be smart and have a lot of knowledge in anything from Computers to Science to Politics or even History.

I can say that I am a Geek and a Nerd and proud of it. Most of my friends can also say this, but if I go outside of me and my circle of friends, it is unacceptable and unattractive.

I will say it again..........The PTB have used the Media to shape and mold our society into perfect dumb American slaves.

Not just america - I think you'd need to travel quite a way from the western world in general before you found somewhere intelligence is widely respected any more! Ah, the joy of being conditioned...

How about the other side? Anyone out there happy to say that they live in a society where questioning given information is generally encouraged? It seems to me that this stigma is most usually aimed at the computing industry/subject/area - although engineers seem to experience it too. Any other specialist fields with such prevelant negative stereotyping?

Please be advised of the following portion of the T&C as the discussion goes forward.

2e.) Illegal Activity: Discussion of illegal activities; specifically mind-altering drugs, computer hacking, criminal hate, sexual relations with minors, and stock scams are strictly forbidden. You will also not link to sites that contains discussion of such material.emphasis mine


This thread is now closed.



[edit on 7/23/2008 by JacKatMtn]

After review, it is decided to reopen this thread for discussion, please keep it within the Terms & Conditions of use as noted in the thread.

Thank you.

So now that the thread is reopened - on the condition we skirt around the 'illegal activities' bits - my question still stands;

Anyone out there with accounts contrary to the theory, in other fields or cultures perhaps? Or do we find that curiosity in general is discouraged in technical areas?

No, no - theres absolutely no need for you to ask about those RFID chips in your hands there, they're for your ooooown protection...

edit: oh and thanks JacKatMtn

[edit on 24-7-2008 by ScriptKiddie]

4) Old school is sh (Bourne shell)

I truly believe in the Hacker Ethic as laid out by Steve Levy in his book "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution". It is a great read for anyone interested in learning about real hackers instead of the media's stereotypical, distorted, and ignorant slant that has been crammed down our throats.

1. Access to computers—and anything which might teach you something about the way the world works—should be unlimited and total.
2. Always yield to the Hands-on Imperative!
3. All information should be free.
4. Mistrust authority—promote decentralization.
5. Hackers should be judged by their hacking, not bogus criteria such as degrees, age, race or position.
6. You can create art and beauty on a computer.
7. Computers can change your life for the better.

As far a freeware goes, it doesn't go far enough. Open source is the only path to true freedom. Here is a good write up on Freeware vs Shareware vs Open Source

"If you can't open it, you don't own it" – Owner's Manifesto

I agree that people need to have a better basic understanding of computers and realize how potentially helpful and/or dangerous they can be. A computer is not inherently good and it is not inherently bad, it is a tool and can be used for many purposes. And like any tool it should be used properly and with respect given to the power it contains. I once saw a guy hit himself in the face with a hatchet while trying to pound in a tent peg with the back end of it. A hatchet is not a complicated tool, especially when compared to a computer or a car, but regardless he was not using it properly and did not respect the power that tool has.

Unfortunately if people have already made up their mind that they don't want to learn anything and just want it done for them, then there isn't much you can do. It's part of the instant gratification mindset that the powers-that-be seem intent on drilling into us. "If somethings difficult then it's not worth doing so just pay someone to do it for you", "I want everything now without having to put any effort into it", "I don't understand, but I'm not going to do anything about it cause somebody else will do it for me", etc. People who refuse to learn about how something works are destined to be controlled by those who do.

As for other cultures, I will use the Japanese as an example because they are one that I am kinda familiar with. Their society has a strong emphasis put on education, but their media plays to the stereo types as us in the west with messages about having the right clothes, knowing the right people, big dumb people play sports, technical people are anti-social weirdos who are only useful when something is broken, "attractive" people get what every they want, the bad guys always wear dark clothes, and so on. So while they are encouraged to be smart and at the top of the class, they are also encouraged to not show it outside of school or the work place. Kind of a double edged sword. At least that is my view from a somewhat limited understanding.

Yes, the 'old school' stuff is indeed largely useless - but it still provides a good foundation for understanding how the new school works, like learning C or assembly before you get 'polluted' by languages like VB

As for that outline of the hacker ethic - couldn't agree more, and can't help noticing how closely it resembles the ethic by which this site operates (admittedly better by substituting 'reverse engineered alien technology' for computers).

I'd also agree on the view of computers as tools - and of course any tool versatile enough can become a weapon, in much the same way that any poorly understood tool can become the user's undoing. However, we must of course note that even the 'experts' can get burned - I once saw a guy at a carnival chop three of his toes off with a hatchet in a woodchopping demonstration... (And then walk across the field to a first aid tent - scary axeman)

I had wondered about the far eastern countries and particularly Japan - i know here they tend to have a reputation for education and intelligence, especially in maths, but then not having any first hand knowledge I wouldn't like to stick my neck out.

To further my original point about the degradation of intelligence in society, i present: The urban dictionary definition list for "engineer". (As you can see, its a very mixed response).

However on the other hand, this surprised me.

(Open source all the way - in hardware, software and the service industry in general! The only problem is, decentralisation and open source don't really mix practically in the economic climate at the moment. The research to create complex open source products needs to be funded somehow, and that kinda needs a government... Or part time jobs)

reply to post by ScriptKiddie


I must disagree, old school is defiantly not useless, sed, awk, and grep are some of the most powerful tools ever invented for the command line and sh unlike DOS is still a workable command line and is still the default root shell on most implementation of UNIX.

VB? Your breaking my heart dude.

I agree being an "expert" does not mean you can't make mistakes. Everybody rolls a critical fumble now and again (more of my inner geek slipping out). But he also probably doesn't blame the hatchet for his toes getting lopped off, he probably realized it was his own fault.

It's sad that some of the most "prestigious" jobs according to that survey are also the ones that seem to get dumped on the most, like you said "Scientific research budgets are slashed in favour of footballer's wages" as well as nurses and teacher being over worked, under paid, and under appreciated.

I think that because people are being conditioned to be lazy this breeds a certain amount of animosity towards those who are not lazy, because in them (the non lazy) they (the lazy) see their own wasted potential. However, instead of using that as a driving force to help improve themselves (because that takes effort right?), it's easier just to mock and belittle them so they can feel better about their own inadequacies.

The problem with software development is that the more "User Friendly" aka "Click and Drool" you want to make something appear externally, the more exponentially complex it becomes on the inside. To be able to drag and drop a file in a GUI in order to move it is far more complicated then a single command given on the command line. And again this comes back to people wanting to use a computer but having to learn and do a little as possible.

Feature creep is another massive problem, the idea that something is inherently better because it has more features then it's predecessor. Despite the fact that the majority of people never used most of the features in the original anyways, it must be replaced because of the new has more features. Cell phones are an excellent example of this, people keep getting new cellphones because the new model has more features then the old one. It's shocking to watch people get the new phone and then toss out the manual too (which is the size of a rural phone book just to explain all the features it has), "I don't need that all it tells me is to not get it wet and don't feed it to children". And then they go about using the 3 or 4 features they normally use and never use it to it's full potential.

If people were to slow down on their consumption and need to always have the next new thing, cause lets face it people who always want the latest new thing don't want it because of what it can do, they want it cause of what it is "the new thing" it gives them a feeling of prestige and importance. But once the new thing is no longer the new thing then they have to go get the next new thing so they can feel important again. But if we were to slow down and learn to use all the tools we already have then there wouldn't be such tremendous pressure on the open source community to continually add new features and they would be able to polish and refine what they already have. It's like those people you see who have a garage full of tool and keep buying more even though they only use the hammer and screwdriver. Unfortunately, like you say reduced consumption is not profitable and that is why we are constantly pressured by society and the media to consume more.

That is why as a true hacker you must promote decentralization, constantly be learning, educate those around you, and encourage them to do the same. A true hacker is a well oiled machine balanced physically, mentally, and creatively. You must be before you can become, change doesn't happen if you do nothing, change comes at a cost of personal effort and struggle, you must go against the grain and refuse give in and take the easy road.

reply to post by deadboi


Yes VB - it was a computing A level and the language was mandatory, im not proud of it!

Id still say that the older command shells are only really useful as learning tools, but maybe i just like a good GUI - admittedly when you've screwed up the GUI by messing with it or you need some heavy duty processing, prompts are handy...

I think that because people are being conditioned to be lazy this breeds a certain amount of animosity towards those who are not lazy, because in them (the non lazy) they (the lazy) see their own wasted potential. However, instead of using that as a driving force to help improve themselves (because that takes effort right?), it's easier just to mock and belittle them so they can feel better about their own inadequacies.

Great theory, id agree with it 100% (Or perhaps us rejects saying 'its only because they're jealous' might sound a little defensive...)

Also i'd sympathise with the ultimate flaw of user friendly software. Drawing on the dark closet-skeleton that is my VB experience, I compared a simple console app written in asm to the same in basic - and swore never to use the language for anything important after noting the 700 to 24,000 byte size ratio! Clearly Microsoft, and possibly to a greater extent Apple, are promoting apathy this more and more in each subsequent product - and it's damaging to the online community at large (although not affiliates of those companies, or developers making a mint from the public's laziness, clearly).

However feature creep is, i believe, a very hard adversary to slay - it satisfies multiple levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (especially if the new features are made 'cool' by media saturation). Feature creep is also an intrinsic product of the Shiny Principle - i.e. "Oooooooh, shiny... *purchase*"

I believe if we did manage to restrain the consumerism of society, every aspect thereof would be improved; crimes such as theft would drop dramatically, people would develop a better understanding of themselves and their surroundings - and take the time to appreciate them more - and of course there wouldnt be such copious debt problems...

If only there were a way to slow down the consumerist nature of a society and promote the curiosity of the people without reducing their economy to mush in the process...

Oh and *much clapping to your final paragraph there*

Hmm...

Allright then. Both or at least one of you is also using stereotyping to bash things that are not supposed to be anything that has something to do with a 'true' hacker. This is just reasoning gone wrong with emphasis on some definition of culture.

Its just that there are quite a lot imperfect languages to program with. To be more precise every single programming language ever invented is imperfect in some way. Some are more suited to different tasks. Math involved is often main factor when choosing a language. Sometimes its ease of building a GUI.

VB can be _very_ effective when used properly and in right places. Nobody forces anybody to actually use those bad features that language has. Most things can be done differently and efficiently anyway. Also, with almost every language there exists that efficient, safe and optimized way of doing X. Doing things in the wrong way exists in every progarmming lanuage as well.

It comes down to size of support, community and logic a person himself is using. Yes there is universal working logic, which is handy, but so far such a human being who only uses that and knows it perfectly hasn't even born yet. You could arguage all you want about some language being bad or worse than another, but then again it reveals that you have read articles or opinions of people who have used it for the wrong purpose. I don't care if java for example is designed for some purpose if it is crappy at it, but that language too has its uses. Commercials that tell where something is most suited are usually wrong anyway, because logic behind those is to broaden markets and not to target specificially enough.

Anyway, I like c, c++, python and think that VB is frigging handy when all you need is a GUI and rest is already taken care of. Nobody forces you to spend countles of hours doing a working GUI with c++, although VisualStudio makes it a bit easier.



[edit on 25/7/08 by rawsom]

reply to post by rawsom


Touche - I know i was glad of VB when i wanted an onscreen keyboard form written in a hurry, much as it felt wierd to have semicolons keep being removed from the end of lines as i typed, and its probably good to abandon the platform/language bashing for now to return to the original topic.

Still gathering evidence on the dumbing down of the populace - hope to have more links to visible stupidity soon


[edit was for spellings - still not sure its right but oh well]

[second edit -
Just found a couple of other relevant threads, noth from last year;
"The dumbing down of America" and society in general.
]

[edit on 25-7-2008 by ScriptKiddie]


[edit on 25-7-2008 by ScriptKiddie]

Most if not all of freedom to curiosity comes down to the fact that information itself should be free. Because humans are what they are, there has to be limits on who is allowed to know and what. I would not want to take examples I am going to use, but those do make a good point. I also realize that this reasoning is a slippery slope, but some information has to be denied from a group of people who are going to use it in morally wrong purposes. We also cannot know who those people are going to be, so we are forced to accept that such information is forbidden for almost everybody. So here comes:

Gene technology

Practically, it is becoming easier to extract information about why exactly some virus or bacteria is very dangerous, even lethal. This could be done to ordinary flu virus as well. It is also already very easy and almost automatic to insert fragments of gene into another virus and see whether or not it survives and can reproduce. You would propably still have to try ten thousand times, but with automation you could just as well read newspapers in the mean time. So, do we let such automation to get into widespread use (it already exists), or do we just make it allowed under some certificate (or whatever)?

Nuclear technology

Do we really want to give algorithms and physical formulas of nuclear technology for everybody to use? Or are we perhaps satisfied with the fact that somebody in a country knows such things and then just use the end result - electrocity. Most of these formulas are already well known, and seems there is not much harm in that except that it is apparently possible to deduce formulas for nuclear weapons from those. That has already been done by several countries (namely those who did independently develop such weapons in 1940-60).

Even harsher would be to actually give exact instructions to build one to whoever wants that information. So does information has to be free?

However.. I think we should be allowed to hack and invent all we want, given that we do have some responsibility on that matter. Not everybody does, but how do we figure out who is allowed to know and what?

Obviously, regular people which is around 99.9% of population or something would not use information to harm others. Also, it is difficult to see why we should deny hacking of whatever we want. There's a thin line in that, too, though, which is where definition of cracker steps in. Only difference is usually that crackers use their skills to cause damage or to spy whatever enterntains them.

How are we going to figure out which technologies should be fairly common knowledge and which ones should not? Should we be given source code for every method of security? Without sources, agencies could insert their own code in there without anybody knowing. With source code, skilful people could be hired to figure out how to beat the system. Same thing is obviously possible with closed source as well, but how on earth are you going to draw a reasonable line in some place?

Now, here comes a very difficult question to answer to.

Should military of your country release all of their source code on some web site? Is there or is there not a risk that somebody figures out how to disable all networking, computer us and everything that is dependant on them?

Should banks realase their source code as well? All of security and such would be public knowledge. How long it would take for somebody to figure out how to beat the system?

Now, we should go back to define what should be a secret and what should be given for everybody. Usually, even with secret, we do get to use the end product.





[edit on 25/7/08 by rawsom]

reply to post by rawsom


The case for information secrecy is a compelling one - and even the most hard-nosed anarchist would have to agree that society has made more progress under an authoritative leadership designed to keep information secret and 'police' the practises of the culture than we ever could have in a one-level society.

However, i believe that the inherrent greed of humankind (and don't deny it's a quality which helps the rise to positions of power) means that the line between information that is kept secet and that which is publicised will continually be redrawn slightly more restrictively by those in a position to do so.

With the current (and so far as i'm concerned utterly disgraceful) trend in society for the abdication of responsibility and instigation of legal action wherever possible, it is becoming more and more dangerous for:

a) Domains to host information that may be used for harmful purposes and
b) Governments to be seen to be allowing such information to be accessible to their people

Meaning that now the internet, as the largest unregulated information store in the world anymore, is often the only place for curious minds to find information about subjects that interest them.

For example, some may claim that the publishing of data sheets for hazardous chemicals like Tri-Nitro Toluene (TNT), or processes for their formation, on Wikipedia or other websites is socially irresponsible - but it is not neccessarily so.

The 'recipie' for thermite is very readily available - along with its ideal component ratio for maximum effect - but i've never walked past a big hole urned in the pavement by the stuff, have you?

Anyway, my point is; Admittedly, since the spread of the internet we have witnessed dramatic rises in 'hi-tech' crimes - notably email phishing scams and the like. But, think about the end result of full disclosure.

Disclosure could not be suddenly implemented for 'reaons of national security' (blech) - but if information on all projects in the world were made available to every person, wars would be pointless (or rather moreso than they are already) because technologies and intentions could be noticed far before they could be implemented. Every research project in the world could recieve helpful input from random citizens on the street who may have an idea (even if it were along the lines of "i cn haz cheezburger? roflmao" as it usually seems to be) and, frankly, if the availability of 'cool' information like the construction of fighter jets wouldn't persuade stifled kids to spend their time finding out about stuff instead of smashing up bus shelters and the like i don't know what would.

I believe the open-source freeware community is showing us the way here. Look at linux, the big daddy of examples - full source code for most distributions is publicly available, but does that mean that the world is full of viruses and exploits aimed at those systems? no. It means that the security and efficiency is developed with the power of millions of minds, making it better than ever before. One must really question the basic impulses that create problems in society and ask - if it really is 1% of the group that decide to use loopholes and system flaws they see for the wrong goals, then why could the rest of the population working together not stop them?

*ridiculously left wing rant over*

I am not sure, though, that the concealment of infomration is the only thing going on here - this has been managed perfectly well by conventional methods for many years. The movement towards disdain for intelligence and/or curiosity seems to carry deeper, more sinister undertones for me - more like George Orwell's 1984 than the everyday 'hushung up' of government information. Its not the ideas themselves that seem to be being brushed away under the rug - its the far more basic and important motivation to seek them.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by ScriptKiddie]

I do believe in the same things in which you also believe, at least based on posts you make. However, what I think is neccessary is that most information is no longer secret information in a sense that goverments enforce it.

Now, look, it all comes down to the fact that politicans have to explain themselves whenever somebody is intelligent enough to use information to gain some harmful effect. That's the problem, there is I think no question about it. It all boils down to that alone.

We could allow just to accept that there really is nothing you can do about intelligent people who are not satisfied with society, but then again such won't be accepted by media because such a thing _sells well_.

The problem, I think, is in another way.

I'll try to give a throughout response tomorrow, allright?

Anyway, I would like to argue without actually restricting to ideas that really have no basis in reality, if its okay to you. I imagine it is, based on your response :-)

Lets just debate this all over and then dedice to wish each other to hell or perhaps actually review something ;-)

(edit: I am serious, though, just humor)

[edit on 26/7/08 by rawsom]

Yep that was pretty detached from any achievable reality, and the rambling that happened here could do with being summarised eventually - given what a wide range of subjects has been covered.

As far as wishing you to hell goes, i'd give it another few posts (although i am in need of a 'foe')

I'm still looking for evidence on diminishing curiosity, but unfortunately there are no reputable studies that seem to have been conducted directly into it - which leaves me with either examples like the hackers or an old person-ey "things arent like they used to be" feel of thing!

Its hard to find specific indicators for general, gradual trends.