America's Middle Class Can't Take Much More Punishment

No, the national problem is not solved. As long as we keep accepting less, it will be that much more difficult to get back what was taken.
To have to go back to dial up, I find this incredible in the country that gave Bill Gates and Silicon Valley to the world.



Not only "embarrassed" to talk about class but ridiculed for it, told one is bringing up "class warfare", by the very same people who are in an "elite" class of wealthy individuals/families.

Lastly, for decades, arriving to/being in middle class meant a class of savers.
However, we have gone from being defined as citizens, to being defined as consumers. Nay, past that to being defined as "investors".
Americans have been bombarded with shouts of buy on credit, use the money in your home, turn savings into stock investments. Open your purses and wallets and let the money fall into corporate accounts, until all we could show were turned out empty pockets.
What were we told after being attacked on 9-11, go shopping. Go shopping.
Bin Laden wanted to see America's economy falter when the Towers fell. However, the fall of the economy seems to have been an inside job.

reply to post by desert

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I just watched a lecture on Conscious media network by Elizabeth Warren, the Harvard professor featured in Maxxed out, she had been gathering data about median income families from 1970 to the present. It will certainly appeal to any academics because she doesn't draw any conclusions - just the facts ma'am.

It is sort of an economic history of this thread topic, I would urge all of you to watch-no matter which circumstance you find yourselves in.
the data is telling.

www.consciousmedianetwork.com...

America may be on the verge of electing the most liberal Democratic candidate as POTUS in U.S. history.

You say the middle class can't take much more - liberal Democrats are about as anti-middle class America as you can get. I say the middle class needs to brace themselves for a long and painful 4 years of tax gouging, pork barrel spending increases, Robin-Hood tactics aimed at taking from the middle class and giving to the poor instead of taking from the upper-elite.

I disagree , I have Evidence they can take WAY more punishment.

Look at me, im Lower class very poor. Living proof that you can Easily Live off way less income.

So IMO they need to shut their traps. Lets reword all of this to better fit reality.

"The Lower Class Cant Take Much more Punishment!"

You've drunk to much of the kool aid... I suppose your idea would be to keep throwing the same policies at this problem Oh my god your rich... Bush has increased spending like no other...

The fact the you are unable to make the correlation between 8 years of ultra conservative rule and the current state of things is shameful. I always admired the republican desire to take responsibility for ones choices and decisions. You nominated Bush, he was not my choice- once again you got eight years to do all the good you wanted... Instead your party focused on war, surveillance and giving billionaire further tax cuts....


Take some responsibility for christ sake! The problems we face are not the type of problems liberals create. We don't particularly like war and the financial disparities of completely free markets.

Wake up - conservative fun is here this is all a symptom of it... the tried but far from
true concept of a trickle down economy has failed again, complete fairy tale failure.

Come Jan the liberal democrats are going to finally begin to properly tax entities far richer then yourself. I for one am going to be mindful of the results OBAMA reaps, you should to... Instead of focusing on rhetorical spin watch for results and come back in four years,,, If he's F$#@ing up, I will help vote him out.

I love this country to much to let my party affiliations blind me... You should be an individual and commit to the same thing!

We are having a good bye party for Bush's departure - your invited - you see it is at our core to include everyone.

I am Middle class and my wife and I are getting slapped around daily. I am having to work 3 times as hard to just keep my job, which puts zero time for me to help with my 1 1/2 year old. My wife has to work full time, so My kid has to go to daycare. We like our daycare, but I feel like a failure that me nor my wife can not stay home and raise our kid the way we want her raised. I am not sure what her life will be like when she is 30 years old. Everyone is sick and tired, but I refuse when things are down not to help a fellow neighbor do a chore or help an elderly person get the groceries in the car. Nobody cares any about anyone anymore, this back stab, no accountablity, selfish society we have created for ourselves is in trouble.

I also get somewhat peeved when everyone says its all bush's fault, it's all this it is all that. IS IT TIME WE START THROWING NAMES OF PEOPLE IN THE SENATE, THE CONGRESS, THE SUPREME COURT THAT HAVE CLEARLY SOLD US OUT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER DAY IN AND DAY OUT and no one every points at them holds them accountable, ridiculous.

on a happy note, the tomatoes and peppers in the back just started producing and me and my family enjoy that.

reply to post by mental modulator

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How quickly we forget Ronald Reagan.

There is plenty of "kool-Aid" for all.

We whom ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Until we treat the POTUS position like the corporate admin position it has become - we are peein' in the wind.

How about a non-electoral college general vote on some minimum performance standards?

And maybe require a team effort that includes the silent majority?

reply to post by desert

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Classical class warfare propaganda. I do not have a right to cable or fast internet. When bills go up, wants get cut to pay for needs. It is sad that we live in a country where not only are people programmed to whine about how hard they have it when in reality millions would kill to have what they have, but that people are incapable of distinguishing between wants and needs. As little as 40 years ago this massive whining would be a social disgrace when you knew how good you had it, but things have changed today with the mass media programming.

Now you are not only ordered to whine and talk about how horrible you have it, but programmed to slam and insult anyone who doesn't agree with doom and gloom.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

I totally agree we do not have the rights to those things. But we do have the right to be treated fair. Thousands of small and medium sized businesses are going under due to this downturn and they are getting no bailouts which I cannot say the same for a few large institutions. If all the small and medium businesses are allowed to go under then ALL businesses need to be treated the same. Let the wealthy go without cable for awhile.

can we not avoid the partisan crap for once and look at the issue rationally?

see the video I posted above-here I will repost it:

www.consciousmedianetwork.com...

facts are neither liberal nor conservative, if facts interest you, behold, they are here for the taking. otherwise you are proving nothing more than that you are entertained with partisan bickering and offer no real meat to the discussion.

it really is worth checking out.

Peeing in the wind is right - What am I missing about Ronald Reagan?

I hope your not going to make me go to the department of the treasury website,,, again,,, pull economic graphs provided by tax payer dollars again and then argue the legitimacy of the source that is the DOT! And then point out the trend economic trend that is almost identical...

I hate koolaide - I think every president has been a pen at some point - Clinton with his NAFTA - BUSH SR with his ban on off shore drilling - Reagan and the MASSIVE DEBT that he created...

No koolaide here, in fact I will be preemptive so I can save us some time in the closed ear debate.

(Source: U.S. Department of the Treasury)

From 1970 to 2000, the national debt rose from $389 million to $5.7 trillion, a more than thirteen-fold increase in 30 years. In the preceding 30 years, which included World War II and the mobilization for the war in Vietnam, the national debt rose from $43 million to $389 million, an eight-fold increase.

The largest sustained increase in the national debt occurred from 1980 to 1992, when it rose from $930 million to $4 trillion. Ironically, this is the period of the administrations of Ronald Reagan (1980-1988) and George H. W. Bush (1988-1992)—ironic because Republicans had long been associated in the public mind with fiscal responsibility. Indeed, President Reagan regularly spoke of “those tax-and-spend Democrats.” The program of his administration was to “spend and borrow” after cutting taxes. As a result, the national debt tripled during his two terms.


Mind you tax receipts did grow by %100 - from $500,000,000,000 - $1,000,000,000,000

however that is still $3,000,000,000,000.00 in spending beyond our means or a 307%

I would be like you earning $50,000 a year but spending $200,000 ---

If we are going to treat our country like a business then this is unacceptable!
So I sustain that trickle down economics is as BUSH SR put voodoo economics- still is - always will be -

So if your recollection does not match up with reality it is not my fault... either the DOT or you is incorrect,,,?

If you were being smart earlier?If not my bad...

zfacts.com...

a good view of actuality ---
zfacts.com...

[edit on 24-7-2008 by mental modulator]

I love capitalism. The idea that one can take an idea and build a business around it has been so good for the world. Witness Asia. But,
I am reminded of the ditty I heard when I was young
"There was a little girl
who had a little curl
right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good, she was very, very good.
But when she was bad, she was horrid."

When capitalism is good, it is very, very good; when it is bad, it is horrid.
Our economy has been increasingly (for decades) based on services. As we exported manufacturing, we now have fast food burgers defined as "manufacturing", financial transactions labeled "products".
As those workers in manufacturing were laid off, they were forced into working for less wages or becoming self-employed. Many Americans started up businesses, worked hard, no day off for 5 years.

When people must cut back, to pay for necessities, they cut back on "non-essential" services/products. They cut their own hair, groom the pet less frequently, don't frequent gyms or have their nails done, service the pool themselves, etc. The wealthy, those with a greater disposable income, may still choose to buy services.

The govt bailout that was supposed to help people continue to pay for such services/products instead will be used to pay for increased fuel/food costs.

We had been a showcase to the world, what capitalism can do for citizens. However, the flight of capital and corporations (who used to be proud to be American but now define themselves as "international", to the point of putting corp headquarters on foreign soil) away from America has left us worse off at the moment.

reply to post by Pilot

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I couldn't get to the lecture, but I found this
Good stuff. Talks about risk. Interesting, I see this as, as the risk increases for American middle class, the less the world sees America as a good place to invest.


Re what are "rights" in America, there are no rights to jobs, which provide food, shelter, clothing (the basics), nor health care.

reply to post by mental modulator

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IMHO Bush has been one of the more grotesque liberal presidents we've ever had. He's done more to push socialism and big government then his spiritual father LBJ. Just look at his domestic spending record. There were no vetoes of the deficit spending.

Bush is more liberal than LBJ though. Remember a neo-con is a liberal democrat who has added the idea of American military hegemony on to their socialist mindset. They want to spread American style liberalism and socialism all over the world.

Obama's problem is that he is a foreign agent a racist and a Marxist. He favors the terrorist agenda, based on the Muslims for Obama who link to his site. He is even more dangerous than Bush could ever be, because he actually is popular. I predict mass unemployment, street riots more terrorist attacks and the eventual dissolution of the republic if he's elected.

reply to post by SevenThunders

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There's something to this. I hope you're wrong.

Class is an issue, here, but it's not about Middle, Upper, etc. It's more about location and culture than paychecks.
Finances aren't the only thing taken into account when evaluating a person's "class." (Yes ,this is something only the educated lower class brings up )

Anyway, urban centers may/will be conflict zones more than they are now. The logistics and costs of supplying a low-earning urban population with basics will become limiting.
Getting produce from the field to the townhouse is going to continue to be a problem as long as we're relying on fossil fuels.(- Edit: meaning trucking, and all the long-distance commerce we engage in. Example: why do mid-Atlantic residents eat apples grown on the West coast. That's dumb.-)
There will be migrations. And it won't be overnight. People are "waking up." But Americans are traditionally reactionary, but once the fat man builds momentum, look out!
We've been plugging holes in a compromised dam for a while. The more you hold it back, the harder and faster it comes when it does come, which it will.
Urbanites beware. For a myriad of reasons.
Rural folk, prepare for life even farther off the grid.
And hey, maybe not, but why get caught wit' yo' draw's down?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by djerwulfe]

It takes a few years for inflation to seep in ,by end of 2009 it will be clear
to every US citizen they are facing total lose of their saving and will still face
many financial hardships.

What is coming will turn the middle class into the new poor
Someone has to pay the war the debts and the bank bailouts
2 options
NAU or inflation the likes of which you have not even heard of except mabe in Zimbabwe
i am talking about USA 10 or 100 dollar bills being brought to the bank to trade up for the new 1 dollar bill
While U.S. citizens slept all cozy in their beds someone plotted the NAU on them
and plotted it well they did. they ran up America's bills beyond being able to pay them essentially leaving USA citizens holding the bag.
each of them owes $200,000 each .
I can save all the guessing THE USA can not pay the bills
so it is NAU or live like the peasants in Mexico.

reply to post by Pilot

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Hey! I really like facts. Seriously. I change my mind all the time, but is that site something I want to register in/for?

Can you just post some of the facts, here, maybe?

reply to post by solo1

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I agree that times will be tough, but this is a country that fought a war in an economic depression, arguably.

So, I can't help but think that there are mechanisms in place to protect what you might call "core citizens." This includes various skilled blue-collar types, lots of technicians, certain civil engineer groups, etc.

Everyone else will have to fend for themselves, basically. We can ration goods and really turn on the old "Stars and Stripes" routine to help people feel like it's bearable and that the end is in sight.

There is a sort of Business/Corporate nepotism. We have some organizations here with large international accounts emplying hundreds or thousand of people.

This isn't post WW1 Europe. We've seen alot of this before. One thing the insiders will have to contend with is that I don't think the MASS of Americans is going to fall for an "external threat" ploy. It's pretty obvious that there has been non-partisan efforts by the PTB for years designed to amicably control the lower classes, and in many respects totally make them consenting peasants.

reply to post by djerwulfe

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YES, there are a lot of interesting interviews for free with people like Lauren Moret, a former scientist at Livermore Labs. She has a lot of information on depleted uranium and Codex A stuff like that, very interesting.

Tons of stuff. More professional than project Camelot, but just as "alternative" about more than exopolitics...plenty to engage an ATSer.

All I know is that my husband and I, both full time working professionals, cannot keep this up much longer. Last month alone between the two of us we spent $750 on gas just going back and forth to work. After leaving NY because of the high price of real estate and moving to the south we are still struggling. And the reason we moved here was to hopefully avoid having to work paycheck to paycheck. Between my mortgage, car payments, utitilies & gas we are pretty much broke at the end of the month. In my subdivision there are many homes in foreclosure. There is nothing worse than watching a family with young children packing up their car with all of their belongings and watching their home taken away from them.