Originally posted by ALightinDarkness

Finally, this whole "benefits are privatized and costs socialized" is a line directly out of the Democrat playbook. And I mean that literally. They started issuing it on their daily talking points list a few weeks ago.

While this is a good line, its not really true. The cost of letting Fannie and Freddie go down would still be socialized - it would just be worse than it is now. It would cause massive hysteria and panic without government reassurance, and that means everyone invested in the economy loses, and that ripples to those who don't even have money in the markets in the long run. The benefits are also not privatized. Fannie and Freddie offer services that make it easy for everyone to get a loan because lenders know they can package them up and sell them as securities. That is not something which would occur in the free market if it was not a government sponsored enterprise. The costs AND benefits of Fannie and Freddie are socialized.

Light Light Light... first off I want to say how about those financials If you recall no more than 2 weeks ago I was saying jump in hard...Im still going to wait for one more hard pullback in this bear rally then Im in for the long haul.

Now with that being said the guy who mentioned socialized risk and privatized profits is 100% correct. Not only Fannie and Freddie but look at Indymac, look at Bear Stearns, look at the next bank here in the near future that is going to drop and get bailed out no names to be mentioned. The fact is the needed to fail. No ifs ands or butts about it. In a true free market these firms would fail and a bigger and better firm would rise out of the ashes. I shouldnt have to pay to keep Indymac or Bear Stearns or Fannie and Freddie for that matter in business. Throw me the 30 million a year the CEOs get and Ill talk about throwing my money into the bailout hat.

The fact is when these guys were making HUGE profits and people mentioned lets raise some taxes people freaked. But now that the shoe is on the other foot its those tax dollars that no one wanted to pay that is being used to bail these guys out. No my friend that is just the part of our empire. Indeed the rich really do get richer and if your lucky to catch a break you might get a little piece of the universal sized pie.

I think that the reasons you see opinions vary so much might also have to do with the locations in which people live. Here in Michigan, no matter what the government might say, we are definitely in a recession. Those skilled trades people, and white collar middle class have all been very affected by the economy.

White collar lay offs, and manufacturing plants closing, or as recently occured, skilled workers had to accept a pay change from 25.00 dollars an hour to 16.00. Now, some may say 16.00 is an ok hourly wage, but for those who have worked 10 to 20 years on 25.00 an hour, it is a huge adjustment to them.

Those that used to make in the 20 dollar range, who no longer have a place to work due to a shut down, now have to move out of state or accept a 10-15 dollar an hour job. They also wait in a huge line of a 1000 people when an announcement is made by a big company hiring 100 workers. GM will also be cutting out the health insurance for retired workers by the end of the year. So those people will now have to spend an extra 500-1000.00 a month for suplimental coverage to medicaid.

I'm not complaining or whining. I think things will all work out, and I know how to cut back what is not necessary. Just a little insight for those who say that everything is all good. Sure, it may be in your area, but not for everyone. Also, most of the people affected in our state are hardworking, everyday middle class people, I'd say half with college degrees, and half with a trade skill.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I think this article is about the wrong class. I fit into Middle Class and I'm not suffering, nor do I know anyone who is. $20 extra a week for gas and a $100 extra a month for food does not harm a Middle Class wage earner. I does hurt the working poor who have no skills. The article should have been about that instead of the alarmist nonsense. We have not even reached the point of recession until we have two quarters of decline and unemployment is still historically low. Talk to starving students or unskilled workers any time and they will complain, but the Middle Class is still doing well in the US.

Most of the doom and gloom talk right now is from Democratic Party propagandists. That happens every national election it seems. I think it gets blown out of proportion here because we have lots of unemployed and young members.

Dude, I agree with your "reality" -- because it is the same for myself.

I let college before I finished -- just didn't interest me at this point in my life. Personal reasons, really. I know I only have a year left--but I need to do some growing up.

I gross just under 30k/year, and net a little over 20k/year. I work in an office. I rent an apartment, and drive my own vehicle. I have 120 channels of cable, broadband internet, video games out the wazzo (cheaper than movie theaters these days!).

I don't eat much, I live alone. I might make something nice once a week, portion it out and vacuum-seal it and freeze it for future dinners.

I drive 11 miles each way to work a day.

I have a bitchin' 401k, as well as bomb-proof medical/dental/vision. I think I pay like 15$ a month for it, with a 500$ deductible.

I'd pull in more money each check, but im putting the maximum allowed away in my 401k, as well as paying my union dues.

It's annoying, and yes -- I don't "go out" on the weekends with friends nearly as much...but I still eat the same, enjoy my video games/dvds and such. I still can afford to buy myself a book or new game every month to keep it fresh -- and I always have leftovers from my check.

I'd say for a non-college grad to be netting just shy of 30k w/full benefits -- I'm doing pretty damned well...especially considering I've only had the job less than 2 years and advancement is on the near horizon.

But remember Blaine, we both live in ALASKA. We are very insulated/isolated from quite a bit of the US economy.

Now when the crates/containers of food stop...then I'm going to be worried.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by MystikMushroom]

Well lets vote for John Mccain then... He will save us with his superior intellect and razor sharp memory!

Originally posted by MystikMushroom

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I think this article is about the wrong class. I fit into Middle Class and I'm not suffering, nor do I know anyone who is. $20 extra a week for gas and a $100 extra a month for food does not harm a Middle Class wage earner. I does hurt the working poor who have no skills. The article should have been about that instead of the alarmist nonsense. We have not even reached the point of recession until we have two quarters of decline and unemployment is still historically low. Talk to starving students or unskilled workers any time and they will complain, but the Middle Class is still doing well in the US.

Most of the doom and gloom talk right now is from Democratic Party propagandists. That happens every national election it seems. I think it gets blown out of proportion here because we have lots of unemployed and young members.

Dude, I agree with your "reality" -- because it is the same for myself.

I let college before I finished -- just didn't interest me at this point in my life. Personal reasons, really. I know I only have a year left--but I need to do some growing up.

I gross just under 30k/year, and net a little over 20k/year. I work in an office. I rent an apartment, and drive my own vehicle. I have 120 channels of cable, broadband internet, video games out the wazzo (cheaper than movie theaters these days!).

I don't eat much, I live alone. I might make something nice once a week, portion it out and vacuum-seal it and freeze it for future dinners.

I drive 11 miles each way to work a day.

I have a bitchin' 401k, as well as bomb-proof medical/dental/vision. I think I pay like 15$ a month for it, with a 500$ deductible.

I'd pull in more money each check, but im putting the maximum allowed away in my 401k, as well as paying my union dues.

It's annoying, and yes -- I don't "go out" on the weekends with friends nearly as much...but I still eat the same, enjoy my video games/dvds and such. I still can afford to buy myself a book or new game every month to keep it fresh -- and I always have leftovers from my check.

I'd say for a non-college grad to be netting just shy of 30k w/full benefits -- I'm doing pretty damned well...especially considering I've only had the job less than 2 years and advancement is on the near horizon.

But remember Blaine, we both live in ALASKA. We are very insulated/isolated from quite a bit of the US economy.

Now when the crates/containers of food stop...then I'm going to be worried.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by MystikMushroom]

First off Blaine Republicans have had eight years in the oval office and six in the house and senate. That was six years to do what ever they wanted... You focus on war, defense and making the wealthy wealthier these things will happen. I can attest to massive price increases in my state. You say some good things and then you dip into the democratic propaganda statement?

Has your brain frozen up there?

Seriously do you really think the republican strategy of further tax cuts for billionaires is going work if it has not already done so?

That IS the main finical objective of these new conservatives. Eisenhower (R) ( a real republican ) taxed these same financial giants at %90 in the 1950's and economy boomed like never before. All Bush's talk and public personna just appeals to your personality type. The ultimate goal is to take the money and run.... I mean if the trickle down economy worked then Rome would still be around dude.


Second thank you Mushroom man for being insightful enough to recognize that you do live in more remote location of the US. I'm glad you are doing good, but I am afraid if you visit the lower 48 you may one day find a place like MEXICO.
Where the rich tap into the egos of a very macho society and then proceed to legislate the whole economy into the ground.

Hell a Mexican day laborer takes home more then me after taxes... I "hired" two for a day and when I asked them what they make and then told them what I make - they laughed at me and accused me of pulling their legs?

Cant help but think about what will hapen in the future if this trend keeps following the downward spiral its on.
People cant afford to eat or go to work , so they start claiming benefits from the government, I wonder what would / will happen if the majority of the populace stops working because of high taxes and spiralling food and petrol costs.?
Will they be allowed to claim?
Who's going to pay the taxes?
I say that those that can't afford to live will either be made 'indentured' populace (re. slaves) or just be left to starve to death.
I can see this world, ( the US and the UK and all the other 'civilised countries) ending up like the old Roman empire. ruled over by the super wealthy, to be eventually over thrown by the desperate 'commoners'.
You Americans and Us Brits should start a revolution now or else it will be only after the deaths of millions will we take into our futures into our own hands.
I hope this doesn't come to pass but until we get rid of tax breaks for super wealthy people who don't actually deserve any because they can afford to pay hiked up taxes , the worse it will be in the long run.
Besides if the homes and property of those who can't afford to live end up in the hands of the superelite what can they do with it? They can only live in one room at a time and can only drive one car at a time, and they wont be able to take theyre money with them when they die.
The super wealthy and they're children will be hated and probably hunted down by some loner who lost everything because of they're parents or simply because of who they're parents were.
Its about time the populace woke up and realised what's going on , but their all too happy being spoonfed BS by Government owned media and all the propaganda that goes with it. Their fed brain rotting chemicals in their food , they enjoy it because it tastes nice, their clothes are soft covered in chemicals that destroy arible land that could be used to grows crops, but as long as they have their TV dinners , they're happy to be sheeple.
And so the garbage truck rolls ever on. rolling over the people who lay in its path trying to live and provide for their families.
The Governments of the world need to wake up and realise that there are more of us than there are of them. , They have the guns but we have the heart,( and the balls and boy can we squeeze them).

It may seem like the middle-lower class are the only ones affected...

My family makes a little over $200,000, we have a medium sized private business and my father commutes to and works in Los Angeles 5 days a week...

The taxes placed upon smaller private businesses are just unacceptable....if you follow the rules to the t as a private business owner it dosent seem as if you can get by...than there is always the risk of some jerk employee trying to scam you and sue....the goverment hates small businesses.

For a real horror story....we bought our house for $560,000(in california where that would equal a $300,000 anywhere else.) the value of our house is now less than we paid for it...for a while we were paying SEVEN THOUSAND dollars a month on our mortgage!!!!
The problem is we cannot move because we would lose money on the house and one of the people who signed the loan, would get his credit hurt by moving....

I thought the 80's were rough. My mom was sole provider for the home, worked in a factory until she was 54 years old. She suffers PXE (disease) and was pulled off of her machine when she was 45 and spent ten years working sh$t jobs around the plant. I remember watching my mom not eat so us kids could eat. We barely made it through. She pooled every last cent into us and our needs. She still tries to give me extra grocery money now, off of her disability but I mail it back to her, check torn in half. She still worries that her kids don't have enough, even though 2 of us are married.

I know things are rough, but we are not starving. Not yet anyway. I have MS, and I stay at home with my child. Pre-school is bottom line, $350-$400 per month around here. So we home school until kindgergarten begins. My husband makes beneath 30k a year. We live pay check to pay check. Those checks are spent before we get them. He's going to school, already one year under his belt and three more to go. If my vision acts up or I have an MS exacerbation, there's no one to come help out. If I'm in pain and can barely walk, too bad. That is how it is. I had to stop my medical treatments indefinitely. I'm taking a gamble by doing so, as I cannot afford the cost of the medication I need.
I filed for disability twice this year and was turned down. They will not give me disability until I either go completely blind, and can no longer walk. They also state, that as long as medical treatment is effective, I would not need disabilty. What do you do when you can't pay for treatment?

We budget, we cut back, and I can stretch groceries like no one's business. We are paying $10 more since the gas went up for my husband to get to work. That $10 used to go to food. We don't go out for entertainment. We use dial up internet. We share an account with a sister. Our cuts just go on and on, but we make it and we do not starve.

I realize though, even with all of my husband's drive to make it through school and get a better job in 2 years, anything can turn on a dime. It did once before. I won't lie and say I haven't had many sleepless nighs worrying that tomorrow could be the day we get up and everything falls apart again. It doesn't take much.

I don't need to see stats and figures to understand what is happening around us. We had under a dozen people move up to our little town, either to buy up or build themselves a mc mansion in the summer of 07. Come spring we counted 8 for sale signs on these same properties. People either can't handle the climate or the house payments.

A house not too far from us, with the most spectacular view of the mountains sat empty for 3 years. Someone bought it last winter and started to move in their things. Now they are moving out.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I think this article is about the wrong class. I fit into Middle Class and I'm not suffering, nor do I know anyone who is. $20 extra a week for gas and a $100 extra a month for food does not harm a Middle Class wage earner. I.

You know...reading this statement I must say.... I am middle class and right now I am close to losing everything I have. Only $20 a week for gas extra? Try 5 times that! Gas now costs me 250 extra a month! Add to that My increase in mortgage payments...( more than doubled) and and increase of nearly $343 a month in our grocery bill.. ( yes track it religously) and then the higher energy bills! When I hear someone saying that the middle class is not hurting it is B.S.! Granted....my mortgage is my problem....but if it weren't for the increase in everything else.... I could afford it. Now I am looking at losing my house...losing one of my vehicles.....and possibly my marriage. Not looking for sympathy so don't ridicule or offer it. Just stating the facts.

I am truly not just saying tis - I feel you're pain.

I am still trying to get used to a fixed income [forcably retired medical @1&1/2 years ago] while also being classified as "unemployable" so I can not legally supplement my income without jepordizing my pension and disability.

I can not really complain - I am in better shape than most of my veteran friends.

I have 3 family members that are presently basically working for free due to the increased fuel costs and and are just trying to survive until they can renegotiate their transport contracts.

The communes of the 60's are sounding better all the time.