America's Middle Class Can't Take Much More Punishment, page 2
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reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 03:48 PM by PokeyJoe
Originally posted by eradown
reply to
post by PokeyJoe

You need to use mass transportation. With gas prices being what they are, I am surprised that the busses and trains are not packed in my area. It is also strange that it is only the rich or the very poor who are using the busses.



Unfortunately, that is not an option where I live....I dont even think there is a mass transit system where I am at.


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:05 PM by Blaine91555
OK, since you are all asking.

My Wife's and my income combined ranges from $80,000 to a little higher depending on the year. That puts me about in the middle range of middle class I suppose. On that we are able to live in a 3,000 square foot home and drive an SUV. I can afford a vacation most years.

We don't drink, party or do drugs and we always have a little extra to put away. We engage in activities within our means.

Alaska is a bit higher to live in than most of the lower 48, but our mean household income is about $10,000 a year higher.

I think some of you are under the impression that middle class refers to low income earners and unskilled people. It does not and never has in my lifetime. Middle class traditionally starts at the level where you own your home and can drive a newer car with that being lower middle class. Below that is low income and only includes those without a specific skill or a good education.

What you guys seem to be describing is where I was 30 years ago. Like everyone else who was not born with money, I worked long hours and sacrificed to build a small business. When we started we worked 80 hours a week each and our employees made more than us for a time. Because we paid our dues, we now enjoy the fact we never have empty pockets. Nothing good comes without sacrifice I'm afraid.

I've watched others who never got motivated for some reason, drinking , drugs and what not; struggle their whole lives. It was their own fault though. They always seemed to think the world owed them something and never caught on that the trick is hard work and study. I've gone back to school twice as an adult to improve my situation while others sat around and whined and blamed the system. We are the system and the only one who will ever help you is you.

The hardest times where under Carter. It was truly bad then. Inflation was out of control and mortgages at over 20% interest were the norm. Way more people own homes now than did then. The standard of living is much higher now. Anyone telling you different is full of it I'm afraid.


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:44 PM by ALightinDarkness
Oh my goodness! What is this? A class warfare article meant to draw artificial social lines between classes and get them angry at each other? From a known Democrat propganda site during an election year? On ATS? How unusual!

I am not middle class. I am low class, as all students are while we further our education. An education financed not by taxpayers or myself but by private donors who set up PhD scholarship funds. All of my money from working outside of school goes to keeping up my small apartment and my car which is going on 15 years old.

And you know what? Things are not doom and gloom for me. Oh god, I have to pay more for gas and food. Oh well, I had to cut my cable bill off and went to dial up internet. Problem solved.

Perhaps I should be more of a whiner though. I'd get so much sympathy. I think however that the people spreading the doom need to be careful: the media has been successful in ingraining an "oh woe is us" mentality amongst the populace. They will be following along crying for themselves now, but if you do it too much they might look around themselves and see things are not as bad as they've been led to believe. And once those blinders are out, the doom and gloom will cease to be effective.

I've noticed the same pattern with these economy threads: people must fall in line with "oh woe is me" doom and gloom, or be rabidly attacked by the doom and gloom post gang who insults all dissenters and always imply that all who do not share doom and gloom are elite rich people.


[edit on 23-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]



reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:44 PM by Grafilthy
reply to post by earthchild




I don't get it, if we can manage to survive on our lousy wage of $35K for a family, then it can be done.

That is a relative statement.....the cost of living is like 4x here what it is in Podunk, USA. Yet, the jobs pay the same.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Grafilthy]


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:45 PM by Blaine91555
Originally posted by nuevobilly
As I have said before the family farm, taken from us around 1985, Feed people like you.

So could you take my noneducation and do as well as I do.


I had to think about this.

First I came from a poor family. My Father from Ranchers and my Mother from Farmers. My Father died when I was 15 and we lost our farm. I went to work at a truckstop at 15 and worked my way through a Bachelors Degree by working graveyard shift and going to school in the daytime.

(We had fruit orchards and my Father was a Construction Welder so I did all the work on the Farm most times. By the age of 10 I handled the irrigation, pruning and picking the fruit. I pulled so many weeds I still have knobs on my knees.)

I then worked construction because there was no work then like there is now. I worked Industrial in the armpits of the universe, like the high Wyoming desert, mid-winter at 30 below zero. Why, because it fed my new family and it paid well. I did not get to go home often, but you do what you have too to feed the family.

Between those jobs, where I managed to finish an Industrial Electricians apprenticeship, I would Roughneck on the oil rigs. Work sucked but it paid OK. At the time it was said to be the most dangerous job even trumping Fire Fighters for fatalities.

I went back to school and learned marketing and how to run a business while working whatever I could find. My current Wife and I started a business with $190 and an old Ford Galaxy. We worked 6 days a week 9AM to 9PM so we could make payroll. At first it was a struggle but it got better and better because instead of whining we worked our asses off.

Now we enjoy a trip to Florida every winter for a little sun and we are comfortable. We never forgot poverty. My Wife was also raised dirt poor on a farm in North Dakota. We never sat around an blamed others or the system.

I now employ and support a half dozen people and their families. They all make a decent wage. I may not be wealthy, but I'm happy and fulfilled. I won't lie, I suffered along the way, but I never gave up and sat around trying to survive where there was no work. I changed with the times. 10 years ago I could not even use a computer, now I earn thousands extra a year just by doing little desktop publishing projects for others. My business is at the point it runs itself pretty much.

Your veiled attack on me was uncalled for. I made my way in this world the hard way. I earned the right to criticize as did you it seems. I've seen others suffer because they got it into their heads they had to live in the same place their whole lives. Lots of farms and ranches in my family.

My Father was youngest of 11 and my Mother youngest of 12, brought up through the Depression. Some of my Aunts and Uncles lost there farms because they could not seem to comprehend the farms were no longer viable. The ones who sold made millions while the stubborn ones went bankrupt. I've seen it all. At one time my Fathers and Mothers families combined had litterally millions of acres of misery and heartache called land. Like I said, the smart ones sold out and moved on.


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:49 PM by Raist
reply to post by Grafilthy



But that is what I mean by middle class here is not the same as middle class there. I also believe this is sort of what Blaine was saying in a way.

For instance PokeyJoe’s post above yours says he and his wife together make $65-70K per year, and that they are broke. My wife and I do not even make but around $50K per year and we are not that bad off. I believe that people try to say middle class makes a certain amount but that is not entirely true. I think middle class is more about cost of living and your wages in your area. While my wife and I are certainly middle class we are about the middle of that for this area. In PokeyJoe’s case he and his wife maybe at the lower middle class point where they live, or even actually poor.

If my wife and I lived where you do our wages would certainly put us at what I believe to be poor level of income. But here in my area we make just above lower middle class level.

It is really unfair to judge a person’s wages and place them in a class without looking at the cost of living as well.

Raist


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 04:52 PM by Grafilthy
reply to post by ALightinDarkness




And you know what? Things are not doom and gloom for me. Oh god, I have to pay more for gas and food. Oh well, I had to cut my cable bill off and went to dial up internet. Problem solved.


Really? What about the 3-4 person households that have 2 working adults and children?

Where do you get the money to go to school?


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 05:41 PM by ALightinDarkness
Originally posted by Grafilthy
Really? What about the 3-4 person households that have 2 working adults and children?


And what about the people in Zimbabwe who have raw sewage running through their streets and can't afford a loaf of bread? That's the problem with this sort of logic, there is always someone in this world who has it worse off than whatever sob story you want to give, and unlike the average American family those in Zimbabwe are never even given the opportunity to do well for themselves.

Life is not fair. Everyone can't be rich. I will have a equivalent of 11 years of higher education and make less money than some of the people in this thread. Thats OK. Someone is going to have to work, and just because you have to work for it doesn't mean its worthy to whine about. The vast majority of those who are having "difficulties" are due to circumstances completely within their control. There are very few people in this world who have made all the right decisions and had every disaster fall down upon them in ways they cannot handle even though they planned for it - those are the only people I feel sorry for.

Originally posted by Grafilthy
Where do you get the money to go to school?


My schooling is free because I worked hard throughout high school to get free merit (not taxpayer need based) scholarships. However, my living expenses are not free, which is why I work at the school as a research assistant and take contracting jobs. I could easily take out massive amounts of student loans and then promptly cry about them when they become due, as many of my colleagues have (although not all!) - but I'm not going to.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]



reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 05:55 PM by Ggurl777
reply to post by DimensionalDetective



No surprise to me if this keeps up america will be a third world country where the gap between the rich and the POOR is OVERLY and well defined.


reply posted on 23-7-2008 @ 06:33 PM by TheRedneck
reply to post by Grafilthy
Really? What about the 3-4 person households that have 2 working adults and children?

Where do you get the money to go to school?


I make about $40K (middle class around here) and am sending my daughter to school. My son will be 3 years behind her. It can be done. We have a 27" regular TV, I drive an old Chevy pickup, and we live in a house trailer. It's more about what you put emphasis on than anything else. The Joneses next door can brag all they want; what I am paying for is the most important to me.

TheRedneck
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