Who made eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians?

Originally posted by 4x4fun
reply to post by Ichabod

 

You are quoting from two different books.
The King James version of the Old Testament is a name that was given to the book that was a pick and choose collection of conveniently mistranlated Jewish texts that the Christians use to back up their story in the writings of the New Testament.
You are better off using your Jewish study bible.

...

Fortunately though, nearly all of the Jews are back in their homeland with more on the way, and the magority of the Jews there are studying the Torah, and relearning how to read and write ancient Hebrew. And it has also been reported, that the Sanhedrin has been re-instituded.

It may only be a matter of time before the Messiah returns I hope.

The point in quoting both versions was to demonstrate that they're virtually identical. In fact, your reference to Dt 13 is identical to my NKJV. Thanks for that by the way, it's a great reference on this thread.

I hear the 'difference' complaint a lot from Jewish people, that their bible is quite different from mine and so we couldn't possibly discuss matters, but when we go look, they're substantially the same. Furthermore, the people who translated these documents knew Hebrew and Greek just as well as anyone today. So, I'm not buying either the argument that they were changed for control purposes (which I've never seen evidence for) or that the translators were simply ignorant of the nuances of any particular language.

As far as all Jews being returned to the homeland - ha. I think there were something like 9 million professing Jews in the U.S. a decade ago. Most of my Jewish friends are still here and only a few speak Hebrew or Yiddish.

Finally, you do realize you said 'return' in your hopeful statement about the Messiah. Unless that was a slip, who do you think was the Messiah?

reply to post by 4x4fun


4x4fun,

There is a glaring omission from your last post concerning the Hebrew leadership across the board and also recorded in both the Olde and New Testaments. The Prophets which were often sent to the Hebrews by God were themselves stoned. This implys that the Hebrews were themselves disobedient and or had actually and secretly switched gods away from the God of Moses...the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

This becomes quite clear when the Pharisees came up before Jesus with a woman caught in adultery..in the very act...to ask Him what sayeth He.

THe fault of the Pharisees in bringing her caught in the very act...is that they brought only the woman..yet she was caught in the very act. IT is not possible to catch a woman in adultery unless you also catch the man. The Law of Moses stated ...they both shall be stoned. Oh this terrible woman!! The Pharisees actually had the gall to bring only the woman caught in adultery. They themselves were disobedient to the Law of Moses and thereby the Law of God. THey had secretly and privily switched gods and told no one.

This is a clear cut example of the "traditions of men " which were replacing the Word of God...privily and for which the Prophets were sent to warn the Hebrew peoples..and thereby stoned to death by the Hebrew Leadership.

This disobedience is stilll going on in what today we tend to call Israel....it is also going on in many "Christian" houses of worship..by the traditions of men.

THe translation from the King James Bible of 1611 or the AV 1611 is the best of the translatons. It comes from the Masoretic Hebrew in the Olde Testament and from Koine Greek in the New Testament.

It is known that in Hebrew...letters are also numbers...and the Masorites were able to faithfully keep the Olde Testament written by counting the letters and adding up the corresponding numbers for each sentance. This is a type of spell check long before the advent of computers.

It is also known that King James already had the Roman Catholic Bibles in Latin...and still chose to do another translation. There was also in existance the Great English Bible..in English. This is the translation which was to be brought here to Jamestown about 30 miles north of me in 1607 with the first English Settlement in America.
Yet King James opted for another version.

The knowlege that the Hebrews killed the prophets sent by God to tell the Hebrew people to repent...also tells me to be very careful about Hebrew documentation. Other documentation too..not just the Hebrews alone.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply to post by Shar


hello Shah

i feel somewhere that the unclean animals have a connection with unclean spirits/demons

still working on this one may fall flat, who knows

david

Thx for correcting me where I said "returns" that was a slip.
As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but you didn't get the picture, and your post mostly comes out as irrelevant schyco bable to me. You are mixing religions and times as many do, and because of that you're picture is obscured.

I'll try to explain a few things, but you are best off asking these types of questions to a Rabbi, an Ultra Orthodox Rabbi as they will be to provide you with much more information than I can provide you.

The events of what happened in the time of Jesus, or even as far back as 300 years prior to his arrival, has no influence on Jewish faith in respect to what they believe and this is why.

The books of the Torah were closed 300 years prior to Jesus's death and they are to remain closed until the arrival of the Messiah.

What we can conclude from the New Testament, is that the Roman controlled Jewish court at that time, although not the Great Sanhedrin of 300 years prior, it was still the norm to test and stone to death all those who failed the tests and proclaimed to be a prophet or in his case, a Messiah.

Of course under Roman rule this commandment couldn't be filled and it became Pontius Pilate's problem.

The many characters claiming to be prophets might be in the hundreds, thousands, or more. This accurance even happens today.

So let it be no surprise, that the many names of these false prophets aren't aren't recorded in the Torah. It's not a book about the false prophets or their love for bacon.

For most religious Jews, not speaking of all as some just don't care enough, but for those who are and read the Torah faithfully, Jesus, and Mohammed only serve as a reminder of Gods word, and of the torment, persecution, exile, death, and many other nasty things that awaits us when we abondon him and chase after other Gods.

By the way, Jews in Jerusalem don't study the Old Testament, they study the Holy Scriptures because there are many differnces in the translation and they would rather use more reliable sources that they have.

If you are interested in knowing what these differnces in translation are you can google it.
Let me say, I do not know if Jesus ever said he was a Messiah and without solid proof, I cannot hold an opinion. But for whatever reason, if he existed at all, he did not fulfill the Jewish prophecies concerning the Mesiah's coming.
1)Christianity contradicts the Jewish Holy Scriptures.
2)Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority a majority of the worlds Jews
3) The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain in effect forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. Deut.13 1-4
4)Of the New Testament in John 9:14-16 it is recorded that Jesus himself was in violation of the Sabbath and it's commandments and he got busted for it publicly.
5)Jesus was not a decendant of King David.
6)The word for "young lady" in the Jewish Scripture was mistranslated as "Virgin" in the New Testament.
7)In Numbers 23:19 The Torah says: "God is not a mortal".
8)What is the reason Christians ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins, or have to pray through an Immidiary when God himself said in Psalms 145:18 "God is near to all who call unto Him". he gave everyone on this earth the ability to talk directly with him.
9)He will unite Israel and the whole world.
10)He did not build the 3rd temple to the specifications specified Ezekiel 37:26-28
11)"God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
There's more but this is all I have time for. I hope that answers some questions some people may have.
Last thing. In order for the Messiah to come, Israel and it's people will need to be united. If all of Israel cryed out to God for help. The Messiah would surely come in an instant and everyone on Earth at this time will know the truth.
Nite

reply to post by 4x4fun


Well, I don't know if that psycho babble reference was leveled at me or not. I'm not engaging in any that I know of.

If I had a nickel for every time a Jewish person corrected me about the use of OT versus Holy Scriptures I'd be rich. It's actually a much bigger deal than they know.

Look at Jeremiah's prophecy of the new covenant which the Lord declares in Jer 31:31. He specifically references the covenant established in Exodus (the old one) as being broken by the Jews. Furthermore, he says he's going to put the law in our minds and write it in our hearts. Once that happens, there is no need for enforcement by men against other men and furthermore, he says that he'll forgive all our sins and not remember our wickedness. This is exactly what Christianity is all about. By accepting Jesus' sacrifice, we're accepting the forgiveness of sins. Further, by receiving the holy spirit, his law written on our hearts. I suppose you think that's a happy coincidence or just outright conspiracy? Maybe just somebody reading this prediction and designing their religion that way? haha

So, that's the old covenant (testament) and this is the new covenant (testament). I'm too old to be badgered about 'Holy Scriptures'.

There are of course many exceptions to applying the law and many involve mercy, which is what God desires more than sacrifice. Jesus taught that acts of piety, charity, or necessity could be an acceptable exception and he used many examples with the Pharisees, which I'm sure you're familiar with, to shut them down. My favorite ones are where he heals people which just infuriates those Pharisees! These exceptions recognize that it is inevitable that a person seeking to fulfill the law will run into conflicts between separate elements of the law only because of their own imperfections (bad motives, poor planning, etc.). The unmerciful and hypocritical application of the law is exactly what leads to the Phariseeism that dominated many of the interactions between Jesus and the leading Jews of the time.

Your reference to John 9 is a fun one. Describing Jesus as 'busted' for healing on the Sabbath is a slanted way of putting it though. He made a blind man see on the Sabbath and yet you still want to convict him for it. You've got to read the entire story through to verse 34 to see how 'un-busted' Jesus was. At the end of this, Jesus declares to the man that he is the Son of Man and he puts the Pharisees in their place.

The reference to Jesus not being David's son is another good one. If the messiah is David's son, then why does David call him Lord in Ps 110? Could he be both David's descendant and God's son? How will Jews today identify a future Messiah as David's descendant? Do they still have the records of the tribe of Judah that will categorically show that someone is David's son? I'm asking - I've heard people say this but I don't know. Son of Man, Son of God, messiah, anointed one, chosen one - all applied to Jesus.

I assume your virgin reference relates to the prediction that the messiah will be born of a 'lass' (what my Hebrew dictionary says). A lass is a damsel, maid, or virgin. Even today we think of that term as relating to a young, unmarried girl. Only recently, in the government schools in the U.S., would anyone conclude that such a person wouldn't be a virgin.

So, we could debate all day about this. People have to read these things for themselves, go learn Hebrew, talk to rabbis and other learned people and try to make up their own minds. Just remember, these folks are just humans like you and me. They don't have a spiritual fast track to anyone upstairs (one of my personal beefs with apostate notions in the Catholic church).

I appreciate the chance to discuss this in such a good forum.

reply to post by 4x4fun


4x4,

I can see that you're a believer in ONE GOD, that's the straight path. May God reward you for your steadfastness.

As for Jesus claiming to be a Messiah, no he did not say it exactly like that... he did admit that he was sent for the salvation of the Children of Israel but he denied being the Messiah in his true Gospel.

"...for the chiefs of the priests took counsel among themselves to catch him in his talk. Wherefore they sent the Levites and some of the scribes to question him, saying: "Who are you?"
Jesus confessed, and said the truth: "I am not the Messiah." They said: "Are you Elijah or Jeremiah, or any of the ancient prophets?" Jesus answered: "No." Then said they: "Who are you? Say, in order that we may give testimony to those who sent us." Then Jesus said: "I am a voice that cries through all Judea, and cries: "Prepare you the way for the messenger of the Lord," even as it is written in Esaias.

They said: "If you be not the Messiah nor Elijah, or any prophet, wherefore do you preach new doctrine, and make yourself of more account than the Messiah?" Jesus answered: "The miracles which God works by my hands show that I speak that which God wills; nor indeed do I make myself to be accounted as him of whom you speak. For I am not worthy to unloose the ties of the hosen or the ratchets of the shoes of the Messenger of God whom you call "Messiah," who was made before me, and shall come after me, and shall bring the words of truth, so that his faith shall have no end."

"I therefore say to you that the Messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God has made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and Piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he has received from God three times more than he has given to all his creatures.

O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done. him reverence, even as every prophet has seen him: seeing that of his spirit God gives to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Muhammad;, God be with you, and may he make me worthy to untie, your shoelatchet;, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.

***

According to Jesus, the Prophet coming after him will be called the Messenger of God, and it was confirmed in the Holy Qur'an.

033.040 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

033.021 Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

007.158 Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

***

The Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet, meaning that after him, there will be no more Scripture coming from God and that the Holy Qur'an is the Final Testament left to mankind until the Day of Judgment.

In the Covenant that God has taken from all the Prophets, it was agreed that all the Prophets should agree on their testimony and that each of them will support the Prophet coming after them.

003.081 When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter) ? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.

All of the Prophets fulfilled their covenant with God, The Torah that Moses brought confirmed the coming of Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad. Jesus confirmed the book of Moses and announced the coming of the Prophet Muhammad. The prophet Muhammad confirmed the Torah and Gospel of Jesus and announced the coming of the Messenger of the Covenant, the Mahdi/ Messiah who will come at the end time bearing the testimony of all the Holy Scriptures, to confirm the TORAH, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS and the HOLY QUR'AN and to re-affirm the covenant with the people, after that will be the Day of Judgment. The sign of the Mahdi/Messiah's authority will be the ARK OF THE COVENANT, containing the original Torah and the Mannah, and the rod of Aaron that blossomed. The coming of the Mahdi/Messiah will unite all religions into just one religion under God. Praise be to God, the Possessor of the Throne.

The Mahdi/Messiah is indeed coming soon to dress God's people for Paradise.

Blessed are the people who will purify their garments before the coming of the Mahdi/Messiah by shunning pollution and magnifying God, unto whom belongs all Praise and Glory.

Peace be with you!

reply to post by Ichabod
Sry, I think I blended two posts in one. I'm not much use at 3am


Ok you said this which I thought silly.
"If I had a nickel for every time a Jewish person corrected me about the use of OT versus Holy Scriptures I'd be rich. It's actually a much bigger deal than they know."

I cannot comment on any deals because I don't know what your talking about, but surely you are Joking when you said this because the math doesn't add up. You'd have to have been corrected by 6 million Jews in order to collect just $300,000 which is only the price of a confortable home. I wouldn't call that rich would you?

All funny's aside, let's take a look at Jer 31:31 and set the record straight. Your explanation of this verse is incorrect.

Jer 31:31 is specifically refering to the Jewish people "the House of Israel", "the House of Judah" as referenced over and over in the Torah.

It's clear in the next verse that Jerahmiah, is not refering to the fathers of the Gentiles being led out of Egypt, but only the Jewish people.

Jer 31:32 "It will not be like a covenant I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, a covenant which they broke, though I espoused them --declares the Lord."

Jer 31:33; goes on to describe this new covenant for the Jewish people.

"But such is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel after these days--declares the Lord: I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

This next verse assures the Jewish people that a time will come when all of the Jewish people including all of the enhabitants of the earth will never
have to reference a book to know Gods word, ever again.

Jer 31:34 "No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the Lord", for all of them from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me. -- declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquities, And remember their sins no more."

Jer 31:35-36 Undeniably affirms who God is, his everlasting commitement to the Jewish people and the promise he made to them.

Jer 31:35-36 "Thus said the Lord, Who established the sun for light by day, The laws of moon and stars for light by night, Who stris up the sea into a roaring waves, Whose name is Lord of HOsts;
If these Laws should ever be annulled by Me. -declares the Lord. Only then would the offspring of Israel cease To be a nation before Me for all time."

These are prophecies of the Messianic Era, a time when the Messiah will come and rebuild the temple according to Gods original specifications, a time when the whole earth will know who God is, and there won't be any doubt about it period.

Here you say "I'm too old to be badgered about 'Holy Scripture'." But I ask "if it bothers you, why are you asking me questions?"
Hmm... sounds like you have concerns about your faith and you want answers, which to me is understandable but let's be upfront.

Of your statement that; "There are of course many exceptions to applying the law". This is simply not true in the in the Torah.
It is noted though-out the Torah that Gods word should never be changed or added to and without exceptions. Sound familiar? It has also been a reaccuring theme through-out Torah that God has always shown mercy on his people, and always reafirms is commandments with them.

After that you are referencing the New Testament which teaches a whole new religion. My comment on John 9 was just to show how Jesus contadicts the Torah, and how according to the Christian faith it's commandments are no longer applicable. Other references; John 1:45 and 9:46, Acts 3:22 and 7:37 and many more.

next->

It's not my desire to debate the mass contradictions in the Christian book, It is my goal to know the Torah.

This must be an oversite on your part when you said;

"The reference to Jesus not being David's son is another good one. If the messiah is David's son, then why does David call him Lord in Ps 110? Could he be both David's descendant and God's son?"

I for one, did not say that.

What I can tell you is that the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David.

When Israel was on his death bed he then said this to Judah;

Gen 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet; So that tribute shall come to him And the homage of peoples be his."

In Jer 23:1-40 you will find many references to false prophets, What the future holds for us and who the Messiah is descended from.
Example;

Jer 23:1-6 "Ah, shepherds who let the flock of My pasture stray and scatter --declares the Lord. Assuredly, thus said the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who should tend My people: It is you who let My flock scatter and go astray. You gave no thought to them, but I am going to give thought to you, for your wicked acts --declares the Lord. And I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands to which I have banished them, and I will bring them back to their pasture, where they shall be fertile and increase. And I will apoint over them shepherds who will tend them; they shall no longer fear or be dismayed, and none of them shall be missing--declares the Lord See, a time is coming-- declares the Lord. when I will raise up a true branch of David's line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: "The Lord is our Vindicator."

The Dividic line has been recorded and by families for thousands of years. There verifyable descendents living in Israel today. Google it.

As for the assumptions in the rest of your post the answer is no. The translation is "young girl" In the Tanach the word "almah" is used which means "young girl". If the word "betulah" had been used then it would absolutely mean "virgin". But it wasn't.

And finally, these kinds of questions are best answered by a Rabbi, I am a Padawan Learner. GL and think outside your box, go back in time, find out for youself, and try to stay away from the bacon.

I understand the arguement, I really do, but it's laughable to me.

To quote Vincent from Plup Fiction....Bacon tastes good...Pork Chops are good!!!

Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by Shar

 

hello Shah

i feel somewhere that the unclean animals have a connection with unclean spirits/demons

still working on this one may fall flat, who knows

david

This is not actually as far fetched as it initially might sound to many. If one goes back to the Book of Leciticus...you can find certain passages where God tells the Hebrew People in his instructions, which were to become the Law of Moses,...how to prepare meals..what to eat and not eat...
God also told the Hebrews that if they follow what He told them to do in this regard that they would not be afflicted with the diseases of the Heathen Nations surrounding them. In otherwords God would protect them from, this...these diseases and afflictions.

Mind you now...there was no science as today dealing with the diseases of pork...and other foods..but the diet is actually very healthy. It is not a vegitarian diet per se..but heavy in certain vegtables....and limited in meats and fish...along with proper preparation.

Mind you now ..that many of the tools with which we take for granted today were not available for food preparation in those days.

Nonetheless we are not under the bondage of the Olde Testament in that no man judges us in meat or drink or of an holy day. We are not under the bondage of the Olde Testament...our Jerusalem is the Jerusalem which is above..not the one here..which now is....but the heavenly Jerusalem.

Our temple is the temple built without hands...any attempt to rebuilt the temple will be with hands automatically clueing one into who's temple it will be...it will not be of God.

We are not under the bondage of the Olde Testament..but the Olde Testament is our Schoolmaster...to teach us many things. Another way of expressing it is that the Olde Testament has been taken further in the New Testament.

You want to eat pork..fine ..eat pork. You want to not eat pork..no problem either ...not any of my buisness.
I just dont tell anyone else what to eat or not eat. None of my buisness.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 17-8-2008 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by 4x4fun


There's a book, in four or five volumes, by Mike Brown, called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus." The most striking thing about it is the degree to which he documents the uncertainty within the Jewish community (and by that I mean the rabbinical community across sects) about the interpretation of scripture, particularly the nature and identity of the Messiah. Of course, I have to trust that Mr. Brown really is a scholar and knows what he's talking about. I can accept that others will not and I can also accept that Brown may have errors here and there. It's a messy system but no messier than consulting your religious clergy of choice.

Pork is the meat of kings.
it tastes good, no matter what some old guys thousands of years ago decided.
plus, back then, sanitation and preservation of meat wasn't quite where it is now, and raw or bad pork can really do a number on you.

www.weebls-stuff.com...

I don't know, most my jewish friends will eat a bacon cheeseburger, at least until you tell them their mother's coming.
that trick's scored me so many free bacon cheeseburgers at work

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
btw, even as a Christian before, I was never under the illusion that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, that title has always been for God...
Islam is like coming home to me...

Your question was "Who made eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians?" so a Christian answer is perfectly acceptable, or you would not have framed the question in this way. As such, I will give a correct Christian answer.

If you did not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God, then you were not a Christian by definition. Arians and Neo-Arians, Nestorians and Neo-Nestorians, etc. are not Christians. They are false brethren. They ascribed to a heresy and were recognized as heretics by Councils of the Church. This encompasses modern day heretics, including Jehovah's Witnesses (Neo-Arians) and Universalists/Unitarians.

Mohammad lived among Nestorian "christians" and even married one. The "gospel" that he refers to was a Nestorian gospel -- a false gospel -- and as people of the book, according to the book we reject any other gospel, even if it is delivered by an angel. So, we submit to God's command... not that which was delivered by Muhammad. Muhammad was not a prophet, he was an apostle -- a false apostle.

So, more directly... who ever made it unlawful for Christians to eat pork? Nobody. If the Christian were of the twelve tribes of Israel, then that person may be bound to the law of Moses. The other Nations (i.e., gentiles) were not under these laws.

When the issue came up in the Early Church, James the brother of Jesus as head of the Jerusalem Church, together with the other brethren in Jerusalem and the Apostles of Jesus met to settle the matter. There were only four parts of the law of Moses that they identified which applied to the uncircumcised:

* Abstain from things contaminated by idols
* Abstain from fornication
* Abstain from what is strangled
* Abstain from blood.

This is recorded in the book of the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 15) and it was a decision which is recorded as being by the Church and the Holy Spirit of God.

This is why it is "eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians" because it was never unlawful for us to begin with, just as with the other non-kosher animals (fish without scales, mammals without both cloven hoof and chewing cud, birds of prey, crustaceans, etc.). Neither must we be circumcised, and we can mix wool and flax in a garment, nor are we bound to keep the Old festivals, nor are we bound to execute criminals via stoning or hanging, nor are we allowed to marry divorced women, nor are we forced to tithe, nor make sacrifices in the tabernacle, etc. etc. etc.

Frankly, I don't appreciate you using this thread as a vehicle for Muslim proselytizing. I have read multiple translations of the Qu'ran, and I reject what it proclaims. So does the Church, as we always have. The Church rejects the militarism of Islam through the ages, shar'ia law, jizyah, and extortion. Islam is not a religion of peace, even if there are many peaceful Muslims. It is a religion of extortion, murder, and war.

Incidentally, I tend to avoid non-kosher foods. And Christian monastics do not eat any meat, because they teach that man is supposed to be vegetarian. In this way, many Christians keep the dietary laws more perfectly than Muslims.

The uncircumcised people have no Covenant with God whatsoever. They may call themselves Christian or people of God but that is a delusion. God has sworn to Abraham that a soul who will not have his foreskin circumcised He will scatter them from among the people. Jesus preached the same. It was Paul's teaching that the Christians are following and not Jesus'.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Truly I say to you, that to eat bread with unclean hands defiles not a man, because that which enters into the man defiles not the man, but that which comes out of the man defiles the man." Thereupon, said one of the scribes: "If I shall eat pork, or other unclean meats, will they not defile my conscience?" Jesus answered: "Disobedience will not enter into the man, but will come out of the man, from his heart; and therefore will he be defiled when he shall eat forbidden food."

So, if it wasn't the teachings of Jesus, whose teachings is it?

Peace!

I suppose they are your own. When I read for instance Mark 7 I read:

Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'" 17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean. 20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"

And appart from other places in theGospel and in Acts when Peter has a vision at Jaffa where he is told to eat whatever his heart fancies, the answer to this you find in Genesis 1:11. How can something God says is very good be unclean? Give me one good reason other than the smell and the danger of swallowing spikes that for example shrimps should be concidered unclean?

reply to post by ScienceDada


ScienceDada,

Your list of foods lawful for the uncircumcised...
you can list all foods lawful for them...
they can eat anything they want...
being uncircumcised, they are NOT God's people...
the uncircumcised soul has no Covenant with God at all.

Jesus has labeled them as worse than dogs.
Circumcision is a covenant with God to Abraham and his sons forever.

Take stock of what you believe, you are following the teachings of a pagan who have mislead the sheep of God by false teachings and attributed them to Jesus.

Jesus did not make circumcision null, he did not make eating swine flesh lawful, Paul did. He observed all the Laws God has given to Moses, he did not come to abolish the law but to observe them. How CLEAR can that be?

He announced the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, on whom God's promise to Abraham was fulfilled.

GEN 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the Gentiles of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

You believe that this promise was made to Isaac... because of the corruption in the Torah. Jesus clarified this in his true Gospel, that the promise was made to Ismael not Isaac. God gave good news of the birth of Isaac after Abraham passed the test that God put him through, that of sacrificing his first born Ismael.

Of the 144,000 messengers God has sent, only one was sent to the ALL NATIONS, the Children of Israel and the Gentiles. Jesus was sent only to the Children of Israel... but the prophet Muhammad was sent to all mankind.

061.006 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

And God himself testifies that the Prophet Muhammad is His messenger.

007.158 Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

081.015 Oh, but I call to witness the planets,

081.016 The stars which rise and set,

081.017 And the close of night,

081.018 And the breath of morning

081.019 That this is in truth the word of an honoured messenger,

081.020 Mighty, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,

081.021 (One) to be obeyed, and trustworthy;

081.022 And your comrade is not mad.

081.023 Surely he beheld Him on the clear horizon.

081.024 And he is not avid of the Unseen.

081.025 Nor is this the utterance of a devil worthy to be stoned.

081.026 Whither then go ye ?

081.027 This is naught else than a reminder unto creation,

081.028 Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight.

081.029 And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

I suppose they are your own. When I read for instance Mark 7 I read:

Wrong. That was God's words which Jesus taught to his disciples.

The Mark quote is clear example of how they edited the words of Jesus to fit the pagan followers. I gave you the unabridged version but you prefer the lie to ease your conscience.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And appart from other places in theGospel and in Acts when Peter has a vision at Jaffa where he is told to eat whatever his heart fancies, the answer to this you find in Genesis 1:11. How can something God says is very good be unclean? Give me one good reason other than the smell and the danger of swallowing spikes that for example shrimps should be concidered unclean?

This vision refers to people not food. Recall how Peter said he never ate unclean food? So the disciples have knowledge of clean and unclean foods. Now, if after the vision somebody came knocking on the door bearing bacon and pork chops... I would concede that the vision refers to food.

As for your question of shrimps... if God made it unlawful to eat, man does not have to find the reason why. He knows His creation better than anybody, He knows best what is good and bad for them.

Peace!

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by ScienceDada

 

ScienceDada,

Your list of foods lawful for the uncircumcised...
you can list all foods lawful for them...
they can eat anything they want...
being uncircumcised, they are NOT God's people...
the uncircumcised soul has no Covenant with God at all.

Jesus has labeled them as worse than dogs.
Circumcision is a covenant with God to Abraham and his sons forever.

Take stock of what you believe, you are following the teachings of a pagan who have mislead the sheep of God by false teachings and attributed them to Jesus.

Jesus did not make circumcision null, he did not make eating swine flesh lawful, Paul did. He observed all the Laws God has given to Moses, he did not come to abolish the law but to observe them. How CLEAR can that be?

He announced the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, on whom God's promise to Abraham was fulfilled.

The New Covenant was made when Christ was sacrificed on the tree. Until then, what you said was true, the uncircumcised were as dogs. This is true.

Now that the New Covenant has been made, the Old is gone because it has been fulfilled. Christ did not abolish anything, he completed it. It is clear as day. And the unbelievers are now as dogs, who return to their vomit. They try to "put new wine into old wine skins", and even then saying "the old is better." Christ rightly calls them "whitewashed tombs" and in them is full of all uncleanliness because they rejected their God.

Your words have no power because they proceed from a false apostle who claimed to see an angel. They are meaningless. You said you wanted a Christian answer and I gave you one. I am not interested in arguing Muslim doctrine. I reject it, not in ignorance, but knowing what it is that I reject. And no threats of molten brass down my throat is going to change that, nor threats of decapitation.