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(update)With Unexpected Iraqi Withdrawal Demand, Bush Has Lost the War

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posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by Shazam The Unbowed
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The idea that there exists, in an imperfect world, a perfect course of action, or the possibillity that the perfect good can be met, is one of the chief signs of an immature mind. Perfect solutions do not exist in imperfect worlds.



its not about been perfect, or elaborating what you've just done.

Its about this is wrong, and its not a mistake its intentional. Let's learn from this, Something is not woriking here. Why do we need to nuc each other.

Therefore, Its not about been perfect or imperfect. Or whether We should be justifed for keep doing the same intentional wrong doings because its a imperfect world and and doing right is impossible to do in an imperfect world, what your saying is really stupid.

The beauty of imperfection, It gives us the capability to look at our world and improve it. Its call maturing, evolving, adapting and from bad patterns to good patterns. Nothing and no nation is asked to be perfect.


lol I laughed, at the silly elaborating you've made in your posts






[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]




posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by danogee


Well being opposed to the use of nuclear weapons and trying desperately to fathom a better way may be immature Shaz,


Thats not what I said. And you need not get defensive it wasnt an insult. But the simple fact is this is an immperfect world, because it is created by our actions and we are by definition imperfect beings. No action ever taken by man has ever been the perfect action, and none that any man will ever take will be. No government will ever be perfect nor will the world. Expecting that the perfect solution can ever be implemented is immature, because it fails to recognise that perfection can't exist in an imperfect world. Yes, in a perfect world there would be no nukes, and no need for them, or soldiers or war, etc. However it is immature to think that the world I just described is, or ever will be this one. And expecting a course of action that would work on a pefect world, to work in an imperfect world is even more so. Youth brings passion, and conviction, and idealism, all of which are not necessarilly bad things. But inevietably, all men must grow up and put away childish concepts like utopia, or perfection.



but advocating or making excuses for them is showing a very unadvanced mentality and maybe spiritual immaturity. Lets evolve a bit people, and stop this blowing the cr"p out of eachother has it's upsides attitude.


Thats exactly what I mean. Yes in a perfect world pacisism would be a good response. In a world where men and women slaughter each other over the most inane differnces it is naive idealism at best.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 





Different situations call for different solutions. What exactly does a divil was in africa that truned genocidal *as civil wars in africa usually do) have to do with WW2? You're all over the map here and I think your making connections that are tenuous at best.


I meant this bit Shaz, yeah i was jumping around a bit but i'm sure you can appreciate that i was talking about wars and compassion in general. Besides, the history of the human race could be seen as one long war if you stand back and look at the whole building and not just the one brick, so to lump WW2 and darfur together aint exactly a war crime now is it. Sorreeeeeee for that, couldn't help it. i m m a t u r e.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 


You need to get off the topic about perfection here ffs.

Its not about been perfect in an imperfect world
Would you get real....

Its about making the world a better place so lay off the elaborating, my god what such nonsense. I really have no paitence for such crap your sprouting.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by mind is the universe
 





Its about this is wrong, and its not a mistake its intentional. Let's learn from this, Something is not woriking here. Why do we need to nuc each other?


Thanks Mind, someone else is human(e). Making excuses is no way forward. onward and Upward.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by mind is the universe
reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 


You need to get of the topic about perfection here ffs.

Its not about been perfect in an imperfect world
Would you get real....


Considering how many people here are engaging in utopian reasoning I think its quite on subject. The idea that there exists a perfect solution, one that would require neither the use of force, nor require us to stand aside as men are murdered, seems to inform many of the comments on this thread, danogee as an example.

My only point is that for a government to operate on the basis on what woul work in a fair and just world, when we dont inhabit such a world, is inane. To imagien for example, that we could stop whats going on in darfur, without soemone using force, deadly, violent force, is shown to be invalid every day.

Now, my point is, Bush made a decision to invade Iraq, a decision many of them reject. However to argue aginst his actions, using utopian reasoning, when his very actions prove the imperfect nature of our world, and thus the invalidation of utopian idealism, is illogical.

[edit on 7/22/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 





Thats exactly what I mean. Yes in a perfect world pacisism would be a good response. In a world where men and women slaughter each other over the most inane differnces it is naive idealism at best.


I know Shaz, but we've got to strive for that. We just should not even be in a position to talk about whether nukes are a must or not. It is not the way to become truly civilised, although if we ever reach such a point, there will be those that will say we achieved it but nukes played their part.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Shazam The Unbowed
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Considering how many people here are engaging in utopian reasoning I think its quite on subject. The idea that there exists a perfect solution, one that would require neither the use of force, nor require us to stand aside as men are murdered, seems to inform many of the comments on this thread, danogee as an example.

My only point is that for a government to operate on the basis on what woul work in a fair and just world, when we dont inhabit such a world, is inane. To imagien for example, that we could stop whats going on in darfur, without soemone using force, deadly, violent force, is shown to be invalid every day.

Now, my point is, Bush made a decision to invade Iraq, a decision many of them reject. However to argue aginst his actions, using utopian reasoning, when his very actions prove the imperfect nature of our world, and thus the invalidation of utopian idealism, is illogical.

[edit on 7/22/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]



Seriosly what the hell are you talking about? Forgive me, but seriously.

The point is. The 8 years of many conflicts, and decisions were utterly wrong. Complete an utter waste of space these governments are. Its wrong, There is nothing illogical to say about that.

Its not about been perfect either.
Its called having a bit of sense of reality.
Its called using your intellegence
Its called knowing right from wrong.

Its really simple, lay off the perfection. It was never about perfection, Its not us as humans destined to be. Its about dealing with our imperfections and learning from our mistakes. To improve and learn from our existence here on earth. Its about evolving to the next step. Perfection is a step beyond this realm and life. So stop waffling.

its the most ludricous crap I've ever heard, used as an excuse to justify all the wars and killing.



[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by danogee

I know Shaz, but we've got to strive for that. We just should not even be in a position to talk about whether nukes are a must or not. It is not the way to become truly civilised, although if we ever reach such a point, there will be those that will say we achieved it but nukes played their part.


Danogee, striving for pacisim is inane because the only world on whcih pacisim makes sense is a perfect one. Thats the point Im trying to get across. If 99% of the entire worlds population chose pacism to the point of dieing before using violence, all it would do is make it very easy for the remaining 1% to exercise total control over all of society.
Unless everyone,, everywhere, including any extra-normal/terrestrial/galatic'reality/dimension etc being in the entire whole of reality all make the exact same commitment, it just makes you easier prey.

The beginning of maturity is the acceptance of ones own mortality and limitations, as well as those of the world one lives in. It starts when you really face the fact that you, and everything else in the universe is going to die and that nothing you can ever do will change the fact that you and everything else in this world is finite, imperfect, and transitory.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:58 PM
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Ok people. I now must apologise for being partly responsible for taking this thread WAY of topic. So on that note; i heard with interest today that the UK is also talking about troop withdrawal soon. Need them for Iran i guess.

news.bbc.co.uk...

This an audio link people:

news.bbc.co.uk...

Not breathtaking news i know, but hey, slightly back on topic?



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by mind is the universe



Seriosly what the hell are you talking about? Forgive me, but seriously.



The point is. The 8 years of many conflicts, and decisions were utterly wrong. Complete an utter waste of space these governments are. Its wrong, There is nothing illogical to say about that.


Some decisions were wrong, some are debatable, and some may have been the lesser of few options.



Its not about been perfect either.

Really? Yet you claim that the war has indeeed reached a sactified state of "negative perfection" in that everythin that could be wrong is.



Its called having a bit of sense of reality.

I thin the Iraq war and the issues surrounding it are much too complex to be discussed in such simple terms. I think the decision to go was mostly correct based on the evidence at the time, though much of it ended up ebing either grossly misinterperted or faulty. I also think that the invasion itself was a perfect example of a successful military action. However the post invasion planning was minimal at best, and a wonderful opportunity was squandered. In other words, perhaps you need to expand your "sense of reality" and take into account a wider view of events.


Its called using your intellegence

Then by all means, do so.


Its called knowing right from wrong.

Yes, I guess its a good thing that two moral, responsible people could never look at a situation and decide that two different actions where the "right" one. Can you imagine how chaotic the history of the human race would have been if reasoned people could disagre on what the "right" thing was.



Its really simple, lay off the perfection. It was never about perfection, Its not us as humans destined to be. Its about dealing with our imperfections and learning from our mistakes. To improve and learn from our existence here on earth. Its about evolving to the next step. Perfection is a step beyond this realm and life. So stop waffling.

And yet, you deem yourself the perfect arbiter of "right", "intelligent", and in terms of "having a sense of reality"




its the most ludricous crap I've ever heard, used as an excuse to justify all the wars and killing.

So then war is NEVER the awnser? And yet Im the only one discussing perfection? Well maybe openly.



[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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WOW, this has actually turned out to be an interesting discussion. I would like to say more, but don't have the time right now. I consider the reality that we do not live in a perfect world to be one of the basic truths about life that we all need to face.

I think the decision to invade Iraq was wrong, the invasion was very well planned and executed, but the occupation has been one terrible mess. Amazingly, it seems that U.S. soldiers are succeeded in making it work against all odds. From my understanding the majority of Iraqis support the efforts of U.S. troops to establish a decent government in Iraq. Maybe that is why propaganda is now coming out to declare defeat on the part of the U.S., because maybe the last thing the NWO and the IC's want is for U.S. soldiers to succeed in developing a representative government in Iraq.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by danogee
 



Sorry whiteraven if this isn't your quote, but i just have to say that i have not spoken to a single person over here that feels this way, not one


They are some of my Scottish friends...very good people. [ But they have been victims of terrorist attacks...they still remember last June.]

Yea...they said it....attack now or we will allow our children to face a much worse scenario....that was the jist of the conversation.


I guess when you have trusted, highly educated, Medical professionals, who happen to be Muslim, blowing up Glasgow in a badly put together car bomb; you tend to think that way.

www.timesonline.co.uk...


BRITAIN was last night put on its highest state of security alert after an attempted car firebombing at Glasgow airport raised fears of a new wave of terrorist attacks.


That was last June...2007!!

The persons who BEHEADED Nick Berg had deep Iranian connections. In the background of the video you could here somebody say in Russian.."DO IT QUICK"....and they beheaded an innocent boy who was trying to help Iraq.

I could go on and on...but the United States, Canada, and the UK have been very patient with terrorist attacks for over 40 years from Muslims.

At the very least, by staying in Iraq, maintaining air superiority and control of the ports and the straits we can keep peace in the area and help Iraq emerge from this mess.

We can rebuild Iraq so that they can have power on 24 hours a day, the children can go back to school, both boys and girls, build trade in the region and maintain peace via balance of power.

John McCain was right when he said we may be there for "a hundred years".




McCain defends '100 years in Iraq' statementStory Highlights
www.cnn.com...

There is no need for war in the area anymore. .....that is my personal opinion.. We can rebuild and prosper in much the same way Europe prospered after the Allies victory in WW2.










[edit on 22-7-2008 by whiteraven]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by poet1bFrom my understanding the majority of Iraqis support the efforts of U.S. troops to establish a decent government in Iraq.


Yeah, that's exactly the belief most Iraqi's support....[/sarcasm]

www.washingtonpost.com...
www.worldpublicopinion.org...

If you didn't see the charts, half of the Iraqi citizens support the murder of our troops....I don't quite understand how that equals out to "support."



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by whiteraven
 


Allo again Whitey.

Please allow me to get all semi-conspiratorial on you. The attacks in Glasgee were either really terrorists, or, what if they were just another false flag op to perpetuate fear, and to increase the scope of the arena of fear, hence Scotland.
What beef does islam have with scotland? Slightly weak point i admit but if they are hell bent on destroying the universe then we will be seeing attacks in, say, Greenland soon. Then that in turn could be seen as fear mongering false flag ops. Can't win. Our info is so skewed by the media how can we tell. Do we have to go on gut feeling constantly?

Anyway, why do these people want to attack us? Are they born that way? I know one thing for sure, that any kids growing up in these countries we so flippantly talk about dealing with would not exactly see us as friends, thus creating more "terrorists".

I have friends in scotland too.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 


I don't have the time to quote.

But your are not making sense at all, Nor do you even see the reality that the Iraq war was brought on by trickery and lies from your government from the very begining. The hidden agenda, is hidden for a reason. Whie you elaborate on such false wisdom, you might want to put wisdom into practice and stop trying to look like your superhuman ffs with your bizarre elaboration on perfection lol.

War today is not the same as pre WW2 times. War today is engineered by the superpowers end of story. War is profitablle and convienent for America to stay in power.

Your notions of perfection, is redicoulous and makes no connection to anything in this topic. Its not about perfection, What age are you seriously?


[

[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]

[edit on 22-7-2008 by mind is the universe]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by mind is the universe
reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed
 


I don't have the time to quote.



But yor are not making sense at all, NOr do you even see the reality that the Iraq war was brought on by trickery and lies from the very begining.

War today is not the same pre WW2. War today is engineered by the superpowers end of story.

Your notions of perfection, is redicoulous and makes know connection to anything in this topic. Its not about perfection, What age are you seriously?


Translation = "you dont agree with me so your a dumb-dumb head!"

[edit on 7/22/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 08:50 PM
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I think it's time to try something radical. So far the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan have not and are not working. Why it hasn't worked is too late for debate. The States is not going without oil thanks to their friends in Canada especially Alberta. Do a little reading into the nature of NAFTA. Forget an embargo. The Hell with Israel. They are only being threatened in their own minds. The only way to remove the threat of World War 3 is to not consider armed confrontation as an option. It's time to grow up and quit acting like children saying my capgun is nicer than yours. Each of us whether we know it or not has something that someone else can use and they have something they have a surfeit of that they can trade for it. The trick of the matter is to not be so greedy. Any ideas? Or are we just going argue semantics and ideology? There are some good ideas to be gleened from past experience but we also have to think progressively.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by danogee
 



My biggest question lies in the observation that they were Medical Proffesionals?

So do you imply that they were "MK Ultra" ? They were "Muslim Medical personal" who could not build a bomb and got beat up by a guy having a beer in the airport. Does not add up as a false flag to me.

PS. I don't think it productive to dwell on that though...tit for tat never works.

I am for peace.

I don't see peace taking hold if we pull out of Iraq.










[edit on 22-7-2008 by whiteraven]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by whiteraven
 


Does not add up as professional terrorists either does it. "Yes boss/gaffer/master, we arrived at the destination and all our intricate plans were in place, but some pissed up bloke blew the whole thing". Hmmmm.

Mind you, have you ever had to tackle a drunken glaswegian!







 
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