(update)With Unexpected Iraqi Withdrawal Demand, Bush Has Lost the War

Originally posted by WhatTheory
reply to post by Agit8dChop

 

Look, it's still spin, assumptions and opinions.
For example, the maps you had only show Baghdad and NOT Iraq as a whole.
Oh, and the pictures of children. Please, come on, what are you trying to prove with that propaganda? Those pictures prove what? Nothing!
Are you suggesting that U.S. troops and allied forces are intentionally capturing or killing civilians?

Sorry, but you have proved nothing.

The media blackout on the middle east is whats propaganda. As to the pictures of the children, they are the heart and soul of their countries, and pictures should be everywhere of them, and the horrors of war. Then the majority who oppose this war would be a little more militant in stopping it.

Don't any of you guys on here, wherever you're from, think that it is highly arrogant and to a point laughable, that the only country to have used nukes in anger is telling other countries that they can't have them. Now slow down, i ain't gonna come on here and start US bashing, i think any country that has nukes is in no position to tell another it can't have them and what if, just if, Iran wants nukes for self protection, you know like we say we do. Might seem naive, but i did say if. I mean let's face it, they gotta be a bit nervous considering all else that's goin on.

How's about NONE of us having nukes, a bit of a utopian view, and yeah i know-how do you stop a so called rogue state using one? Well, i don't know, but i do realise the whole Iran/mid east thing ain't just about nukes.

I think all this talk about going into Iran and taking their toys off them is a bit too over confident, i mean do you really think they will just roll over like Iraq. Surely the possibility exists for them to invite their big brothers over, aka china/russia or maybe they wouldn't need inviting.

Also....word of mouth from some UK friends... prevailing attitude seems to be attack now or face a far worse scenario 10 years from now?!!!??

Sorry whiteraven if this isn't your quote, but i just have to say that i have not spoken to a single person over here that feels this way, not one. Maybe they have on this site, but not on the ground-for want of a better phrase. I personally sure have NO appetite for another war, nor the previous one, and the one before that, and the one before that....Jeez, where do you guys get your appetite for it??

How can people say that we ain't fighting the civillians of Iraq- try telling them that, there's enough of them being killed. Therefore, is it not possible that there are a certain amount of "freedom fighters" attacking the occupying forces? What would you do if your country was invaded? Say "come on in, it's yours, take it, take it"? Don't think so somehow; Red Dawn was it? And what about the kids over there growing up to this daily nightmare? Who are they gonna end up hating?

As for thirld world countries, don't you mean MAJORITY world, because that's what it is. Maybe they are, in some cases, being kept that way deliberately. For instance, some smaller/poorer countries are priced out of many markets like certain types of food production by western countries using their financial clout to subsidise their own farmer's etc. Fairtrade NOT freetrade anyone? Sorry peeps, slightly off topic i know.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by danogee]

reply to post by mystiq

I agree....we need to show some of the horrors of war.

The innocent do suffer.

I believe if we pulled out now from Iraq it WOULD be the innocent who suffer.

There will be a bloodbath if we pull out of Iraq. It is far better that we stay now that we have FUBARed the country.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by whiteraven]

Originally posted by mystiq
As to the pictures of the children, they are the heart and soul of their countries, and pictures should be everywhere of them, and the horrors of war.

That's nice but let's stick to reality and the topic at hand ok?

The poster showed the photo of the little girl with a caption saying "enemy combatant". Just because someone puts a caption on some anonymous photo does not mean it's true. It's very disingenuous to say such a thing in order to try and make a lame point especially when there is no proof regarding the photo. Don't you think? As if that picture of the little girl is a enemy combatant. Totally no morals for posting something like that. Using the picture of a little girl to make a lame point. Disgusting!

[edit on 22-7-2008 by WhatTheory]

has no one ever heard of India or China??

I thought they were the regional superpowers in Asia

and dont tell me Iran is not in asia its in the "middle east" i call BS cuz the middle east is actually in Asia, a huge contintent

anyways, India could take down Iran anyday

reply to post by audas

Originally posted by audas
Good to see the bright sparks have come out - the reality is, as evidenced by your own posts, that it is unequivocally Americans who are unable to accept they are one of the many, their cocksure self belief that they are some how better than everyone - do you fail to realise that almost every part of my "computer" was made in Asia- probably Japan.

Designed in America, built by the Japanese, and sold to you. UNIX, MicroSoft, OpenVMS, Mac OS. All American inventions. Thank goodness we designed it for you, eh?

Originally posted by audas
You car manufacturing industry, in fact most industries outside of weapons, are decimated. You have moved to a service based economy in technology and yet in the past 24 months have outsourced this to India at unprecedented levels - then present facts and figures from three and four years ago - the reality is I live in Europe, have lived in Asia, South East Asia, have travelled to almost every continent and scores of countries in which I have worked and studied, and I should know how Americans are viewed - as I am one of those doing and associating with the viewers - you can not know how you are percieved as you are the the subject of this perspective and are therefore not in a position to state what this perspective is, and no matter how naively you think you can, you are not in a position to DICTATE how you are seen. Hence you do not know and simply stating otherwise makes you look foolish beyond all measure - my point exactly.

Your posts here reek of insecurity and fear. Your tiny little nation can add nothing to the world economy other than babushka weaving, so you feel inferior to the US.

Don't worry - we won't pick on you.

reply to post by danogee

Originally posted by danogee
Don't any of you guys on here, wherever you're from, think that it is highly arrogant and to a point laughable, that the only country to have used nukes in anger is telling other countries that they can't have them.

We didn't use them out of anger. And we haven't used them since.

And for you to think that the UK didn't know of it beforehand, and approve of it, is naive. As a matter of fact, they helped us build it.

Insanity. That is the problem here. People are just bat-shiite crazy. I think the US needs another good dose of "reality" on their own soil for a change. The Civil War and 9/11 obviously wasn't enough... this same pattern has been going on Since the Civil War. Conflict every generation or two. The Cowboy "manifest destiny" mentality needs to be reigned in forcibly. Look out southwest... the revolution is going to start there...

Oh i agree Jbeck, they all p"*s in the same pot for sure, but don't you think wiping out people indiscriminantly, more so than usual, with nukes, is a little angry? it's hardly being a little bit annoyed is it. Still, you're right, the brits we're probably itching to see it tested on that scale for the first time too-MONSTERS!
It doesn't invalidate my point though.

reply to post by whiteraven


Iran is strong, Iraq was always stronger, and it is believed that Saddam never attacked Saudi Arabia because they in fact where even stronger..

Pakistan is up there as well..

And the most powerful in the entire region is Israel, followed by Turkey.

Iran however, once Iraq fell, has had it's boundaries dissipate.. so it can grow in power and influence. Essentially though, America gives Iran the influence.. if America where not constantly talking about Iran, the World would forget where it is.

However Iranians and Iraqi's hate each other.. the soldiers of their last war are still alive and unwell.. I don't see Iraq and Iran joining anytime soon, though the efforts are obviously there..

As for loosing the Iraq War.. essentially the only way you know you lost an occupation, is you are forced to leave. So far no coward has been in office to make that happen .. for the most part, violence is down considerably, Iranian supported factions still operate and cause havoc, but at a much lesser degree. Not stable, but not in the midst of all out war either.. Iraq imo is at a cross roads as to what will it's future be. It's leaders are weak willed, weak minded, and pathetically supported by few.. Iran is seen as a powerful vortex of influential power.. still standing up to America, a standing army, a some what sound economy..

And of course acquiring the Iraqi oil fields is enough to urge some union ..

I don't see another Persian Empire arising anytime soon though.. Iran has problems, they only want proxy wars because in the face of a real war, they would loose terribly.. Race, ethnicity and religion also divide Iraqi's and Iranians.. they are Persians, not Arabs.

In the end though, to solve the Iraqi problem, it would make sense to the Western Powers to invade Iran and take it over as well.. maybe not unifying the two countries, but to join Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran together without divides would make the American mission far easier, making a 2 sided war into a single theater.

reply to post by danogee


You make a point: as ghoulish as it sounds, I think many people were anxious to see the results of a live test of the A-bomb.

reply to post by WhatTheory


I think you work for one of the alphabet boys!

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
reply to post by WhatTheory

 

I think you work for one of the alphabet boys!

Why? Because I disagree with you. Boy, that argument never gets old.

Even IF I did, but I don't, so what?
How does that make my point any less valid?

Instead of making a one line useless post, please tell me how I am wrong or at least what your opinion is regarding my post. Thanks!

[edit on 22-7-2008 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by danogee
Oh i agree Jbeck, they all p"*s in the same pot for sure, but don't you think wiping out people indiscriminantly, more so than usual, with nukes, is a little angry? it's hardly being a little bit annoyed is it. Still, you're right, the brits we're probably itching to see it tested on that scale for the first time too-MONSTERS!
It doesn't invalidate my point though.

Actualyl history shows we dropped the Atomic Bombs (there were two) out of compassion.
You see the japanese Empire had a unshakable "no surrender" poilicy. Thier offical defensive plans, in the event Americ had launched a convetional invasion, called for every man, woman, and child, to be drafted into the defense efforts. Women were told to kill themselves and thier children rather than let them be captured because the US soldiers would eat them. Litterally. As a result hundreds, if not thousands of women in the outer islands did kill thier children and themselves rather than be captured. The ironic thing is it was the japanese soldiers who made a habit of raping and slaughtering the captured civilians they captured. As a direct result of this imperial propagnada, our war planners realised that by using the two atomic bombs to force Japan's surrender, less japanese lives would be lost, than if we were to try a convetional invasion.

In other words, we droped those atomic bombs so that we wouldnt have to kill even more innocents in order to end the war. They were not dropped in anger, but in compassion and with great sorrow.

America does not threaten genocide or the total destruction of other countries. Many of those currently seeking nuclear pwer have, and continue to do so.


[edit on 7/22/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]

In other words, we droped those atomic bombs so that we wouldnt have to kill even more innocents in order to end the war. They were not dropped in anger, but in compassion and with great sorrow.

Not funny ha, ha, just laughable.

Jeez, atom bombs and compassion do not belong in the same sentence mate, not yet anyhow, a terrible future scenario and event not withstanding. Ok then, lets nuke all the starving people in the world and release them from their slow, drawn out, agonising death-which we can see happening and could feed them easily, yet nothing is done.

As for destroyng countries, sure does happen, allegedly, US and the brits, so they can send their halliburton's etc in there to rebuild them out of the kindness of their lovely little hearts.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by danogee]

[edit on 22-7-2008 by danogee]

[edit on 22-7-2008 by danogee]

Originally posted by audas

No one would question the wealth of America over Iran - however the fact that America has knowingly raped the prospect of the third world ever escaping blinding poverty through profoundly unfair trade restrictions, development debt, IPR restrictions, tariffs, and now disgustingly bio fuels, and for Iran, Iraq, crippling sanctions which at the most conservative estimate cost the lives of half a million children should be paraded around this internet as some sort of moral achievement or vindication of power is repugnant in the most absolute form.

You make me happy knowing you are disgusted by it audas

It is an endless source of wonder that Americans would prefer to conjure up fantasies rather than admit equality with any other nation
any idea of equality or any suggestion which remotely questions what must be the severest case of narcissism and egotistical mania is met with total delusion.

Conspiriology's translation = I hate losing to Americans. I hate it I hate It I hate it I hate it damnit! Those stuck up American bastards!


- Con





[edit on 22-7-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by danogee


Jeez, atom bombs and compassion do not belong in the same sentence mate,

I imagine it looks that one to someone who isnt mature enough to understand the terrible choices faced by FDR.

Originally posted by danogee
Jeez, atom bombs and compassion do not belong in the same sentence mate, not yet anyhow, a terrible future scenario and event not withstanding. Ok then, lets nuke all the starving people in the world and release them from their slow, drawn out, agonising death-which we can see happening and could feed them easily, yet nothing is done.

I think you missed the point.
Would you have wanted another couple hundred thousand people dead during that war? If not, then that is exactly what dropping the bombs accomplished.

The death toll would have been a couple hundred thousand more if the U.S. and it's allies would have decided to invade by putting boots on the ground in order to bring Japan to it's knees. The lives lost would have been doubled if the nukes were not used.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by danogee

Jeez, atom bombs and compassion do not belong in the same sentence mate, not yet anyhow, a terrible future scenario and event not withstanding.

Yeah, as ironic as it seems, he is right nevertheless and it WAS the most compassionate choice. They were warned twice also. Even after the first one exploded, the Japanese would still not surrender.

Had we gone in there to take the Japanese beachhead and invaded, we would have lost a million men between us according to some estimates, and would have taken years just to arrive at the same objective. Japanese capitulated unconditionally after the second drop. It was a choice between to equally distasteful alternatives, and if one could see past his cynicism, the most compassionate choice is the one we took.

Ok then, lets nuke all the starving people in the world and release them from their slow, drawn out, agonising death-which we can see happening and could feed them easily, yet nothing is done.

How many of them have you fed today? Yesterday? in the last month?

yeah uh huh

- Con





[edit on 22-7-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Shazam The Unbowed

Originally posted by danogee


Jeez, atom bombs and compassion do not belong in the same sentence mate,

I imagine it looks that one to someone who isnt mature enough to understand the terrible choices faced by FDR.

Was truman who made that one though

- Con