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(update)With Unexpected Iraqi Withdrawal Demand, Bush Has Lost the War

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posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by MacDonagh
The U.S. had already lost the war in Iraq because it's a war you can't win. You can't just go into a country, overthrow it's leader, introduce democracy and expect it to go smoothly. Too much resistance.

Of course you can win. It worked in the past, ie Japan & Germany. Hell, we still have troops there. However, you are correct that it does not always go smoothly but it can be done and has been done.


Japan and germany are nothing like Iraq, not one minute aspect of the Iraqi charade is comparitive to Germany/Japan.

Germany and Japans people were sick of war, were sick of their leaders orders to fight.
They threw the first stone, and were such beaten down to a pulp.
The people embraced the end of the war, all they wanted to do was rebuild and remove the cancerous growth that facism had spread to its interior.

Iraq will never be the same and it will never subdue like Germany/Japan did post 45, Why?

Because it is US who is bringing the facism to their interiors.

Your example is so ignorant because you cannot see that Japan and Germany did exactly what America is doing, and both were thumped in the end.

Iraq is the modern day France, its people are resisting the foreign occupier even if it means death, because France and its riches belonged to the French, and the same goes for IRAQ!




posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
If the Iraqi government succeeds in standing on its own, and U.S. troops withdraw, that is a huge WIN for the U.S...... the U.S. will have achieved every goal, removal of Saddam and establishment of a new Iraqi representative Government. While the oil industry might prefer that the U.S. occupy Iraq from now on, that is not what the people of the U.S. want.


I couldn't agree more.

reply to post by burdman30ott6
 


Re use of military force. Even General Petraeus said that using military force was necessary but not sufficient to end violence there. The Iraq Study Group demanded intense negotiations with Iran.

Perhaps ancient warfare meant that soldiers rape and pillage as a way to claim victory, but it is not in today's superpower's interest in modern warfare to do that. The idea of a "kind and gentle" warfare hearkens back to Viet Nam, when some people thought if only we had somehow fought "harder" we would have "won". Truth is, that was a debatable point even in the military.

It was then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Colin Powell, who convinced GHWB to not invade Iraq.
Some will debate his Powell Doctrine of warfare as a "cut and run if the going gets tough", but it really was meant as a test for engagement using the greatest force. Once again, however, the US went to war (an elective one!) without listening to the generals re troop strength (Shinseki).



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by isa75
 


IMO Iran is NOT going to have an easy time of nuking Israel regardless of whether or not they are considered to be a "superpower". They may try, they may even launch the weapons, but Isreal (being closely allied with the U.S.) has one of the most advanced militaries on the planet. They most likely have some way of defending themselves against a missile attack. In other words anti-missile missile systems like the patriot, for example.. There are many others.

And the Iranian leadership knows that nuking Israel would probably be the absolute dumbest thing they could ever do.. It's suicide.. We've invaded and overthrown entire regimes for much less. Let alone the retaliatory counter-strike that could open up pandora's box. It's basically like seeing Iran with a few nukes pointed towards Israel and multiple countries with hundreds and hundreds more pointed back.. I think Adminoujad's open hatred of the Israeli nation has largely been a geopolitical tool for fear-mongering which then makes the rest of the world know that Iran "means business". It's basically the same situation as North Korea.. They want respect in the international community and to them nukes seemed the logical route of choice.

It also seals some method of deterrence from an Iranian leadership point of view. In other words, "don't nuke us or attack us because we have the finger on the trigger as well"..

As long as the sanctions continue, the rants and anti-west sentiment continue, the UN leaders will eventually see that Iran must be toppled just like Iraq and they will act militarily. And then it's back to overthrowing a regime all over again.. But if that happens, would it ever stop? If it's not iraq it's Iran, If it's not Iran it's someone else.. The middle east is going to be a really bad place to be over the coming years..

To Adminoujad's credit, he does seem to have a tendency to think logically and just generally know how to manipulate people in general into not only following his leadership and his will, but also manipulating the overall fear of the Western world. I'm not saying this is a good thing. But it does seem that he is smart enough not to ignorantly start a nuclear holocaust that could kill countless human beings.. Not to mention him and/or his regime. Lil Kim up in North Korea is a different story. Iran is actually a fairly modernized society overall (much better off than North Korea, that's for sure). I can't see Adminoujad risking all of Iran's success on taking the nuclear gamble (which isn't really even a gamble since we know military force would retalitate from the U.S. and probably elsewhere).

-ChriS



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by whiteraven
 


Considering the Iraq war was done and over in 3 weeks, a normal person would not assume the war had been lost. Neither does this prove that to be a fact, as iraq is a conflict, not a war. Furthermore, the US leaving Iraq anytime soon is very unlikely. Even if Iran tried to absorb Iraq, the sunni dominated Iraq would explode against the Shiite dominated Iranians. Not to mention this would draw the US in for a full blown attack on the Iranian military, as well as industrial infrastructure.... I wouldnt read much into this, alot of hot air is being blown over nothing.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by whiteraven
I see your point...they win on all fronts,,,,Oil, Sadamm, and a liberated Iraq.

But who controls the liberated Iraq?

This is what Baer was pointing too!


Sunnis hate Shiites, Iran is full of shiites, Iraq is full of sunnis. There is also alot of built up tension from the 1980's conflict between Iran and Iraq. Iran would have a much harder time in iraq than America has had, with a less capable force of dealing with the ongoing insurgency.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by West Coast]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Because it is US who is bringing the facism to their interiors.



Unfortunately, most Americans - and Whattheory is a prime example - see America as all wholesome goodness and Apple Pie.

I listen to a lot of Texas Radio (KLBJ and KLIF as they have Coast to Coast for free) and the callers actually believe all the propaganda that is being spouted by the American main stream media.

If you ever get the chance to listen to Micheal Savage on KLIF, you will see what I mean. That DJ is baying for war with Iran - why? His rhetoric is that Moslem's are taking over the US and need to be wiped out.

And don't get me started on all the Department of Homeland Security propaganda advertising that they spout (What would you do if there was a terrorist attack?)

Oh, most of the advertisements appear to be getting you to spend more money and that if you don't, you will be looked down upon by your friends and neighbors.

Great country!!!

You can tell a lot about a country by its media.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:23 AM
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Iran this past week signed an almost endless oil contract w/USSR and China.That my friends has made it a loss for the US.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by West Coast
 


Iraq has an overwhelming Shiite population, only about 32 - 35% are Sunni. A little more time learning and a little less time pointing guns please.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by foremanator
Why is it that bbc news links are only availible to uk residents?
I bet it has something to do with propaganda rights between nations


Its the same for US stuff also.
We can never watch Heroes outside the US from the website, nor the BSG teasers...



[edit on 22-7-2008 by smans]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:09 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory
Of course you can win. It worked in the past, ie Japan & Germany. Hell, we still have troops there. However, you are correct that it does not always go smoothly but it can be done and has been done.


In WW2, the allies attacked and subdued the armed forces of countries that had attacked them first, because it was a fight for the actual existence of those allied countries.

The US led COW attacked a country that had done nothing to them whatsoever, and did not threaten their existence.

There is a huge difference there. I hope you can see it. If not then your perception is badly skewed.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by West Coast
reply to post by whiteraven
 


Considering the Iraq war was done and over in 3 weeks, a normal person would not assume the war had been lost. Neither does this prove that to be a fact, as iraq is a conflict, not a war. Furthermore, the US leaving Iraq anytime soon is very unlikely. Even if Iran tried to absorb Iraq, the sunni dominated Iraq would explode against the Shiite dominated Iranians. Not to mention this would draw the US in for a full blown attack on the Iranian military, as well as industrial infrastructure.... I wouldnt read much into this, alot of hot air is being blown over nothing.


I totally agree and can't believe some of the crap I'm reading in this thread. The BBC Pffft they may as well call it the British Bigot Channel for it's anti American slant on everything.

I think if anything our Government is salavating for iran to pull something stupid like hitting israel. Then we would just go for it and everyone who thinks Iran is such a problem would see them get mowed down in about two to three weeks give or take a week. It would be interesting to see israel unleashed without our usual restraining them.

It is something that if it were to happen, I think we ought to refrain from asking britain to ally with us and should turn down any offers of same from them. As for iraq, I think it's a given we are going to have a presence there whether maliki likes it or not, I just don't see us going this far and leaving the place. Ain't gonna happen and Iran's shenannigans won't matter either way. Americans have already been lulled into accepting this fact moreover I think most agree, leaving Iraq is not in our best interest regardless.

West is right though, this isn't a war anymore it is a transformation process we wrestle with and they are never easy but I think taking iran out sure would help things get done faster as I am convinced they're antagonists to getting things done there. They ain't no damn ME superpower though, they may wannabe and I'm sure they have every aspiration to be just that but that wouldn't be in anyones interests and is why China, Russia, Germany, France don't want to see them reach any Nuclear weapons status.

It's always been a love hate relationship between Iran and the U.S.

- Con




[edit on 22-7-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:48 AM
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I watched the Tom Hanks DVD "Charlie Wilson War" over the weekend about the CIA's involvement in the Afganistan war against the USSR. And a very good point was made at the end of the Movie, you screwed the end game up!
You won the war, but then instead of rebuilding the country and educating the people, you packed your bags and left.
And years later they using your own weapons against you!
Is the same going to happen in Iraq?
You pack your bags and leave and Iran offers to rebuild and educate!
So who wins the war?



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

In WW2, the allies attacked and subdued the armed forces of countries that had attacked them first, because it was a fight for the actual existence of those allied countries.

The US led COW attacked a country that had done nothing to them whatsoever, and did not threaten their existence.

There is a huge difference there. I hope you can see it. If not then your perception is badly skewed.



Well said, it would seem that noone really cares about the actual reason or necessity to go over there at all.
Western countries have got to stop policing the world and forcing changes upon countries that either are not ready or not willing.

The quest for democracy has become the same quest as the one started by the christian fanatics in the medieval time.

It should be a number one rule for countries in pacts like the UN etc. that none of them will ever move in on a country unless that country present a clear and present danger to them, and by that I don't mean the odd embassy bombing, but an actual chance to hit the borders of the homeland.

Neither Iraq or Iran had that possibility. Concentrate on ones own country and make that work before trying to save someone else.

Will be interesting to follow the development from now on. Of course withdrawl doesn't take place in a matter of days, but nevertheless...

[edit on 22/7/08 by flice]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by Agit8dChop
 


ROTFLMAO - You might want to look at some of the facts on the U.S. economy. The U.S. continues to lead the world in economic diversity, productivity and technology, and most importantly GDP, while the countries of the Middle East are all one trick ponies, whose economies rely entirely on the oil under the ground, which is running out fast.

Seriously, the people of the Middle East need to wake up and learn that unless they learn to start developing technology, which means turning away from religious extremism, they are doomed to go back to being third world nations. Once the Middle East was at the forefront of civilization, but since the rise of Islam, the Middle Eastern nations have steadily fallen behind.

The idea that Iran can compete with the U.S. is pure fantasy.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 03:14 AM
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Personally, I would like to see the U.S. military withdraw its troops from around the world, except where there is a real threat, and maintain only those sites which allow the U.S. to maintain supplies as needed to launch a strike anywhere on the planet, and keep our carrier groups stocked up.

We don't need to be in Germany anymore, or Japan, except for Okinawa to protect Taiwan. We should have pulled out of Saudi Arabia long ago.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Agit8dChop
 


ROTFLMAO - You might want to look at some of the facts on the U.S. economy. The U.S. continues to lead the world in economic diversity, productivity and technology, and most importantly GDP, while the countries of the Middle East are all one trick ponies, whose economies rely entirely on the oil under the ground, which is running out fast.


Would you please provide some verifiable evidence of the this? Perhaps a link? Without this I take your comment as nothing but speculation and bias towards the US. As far as Im concerned its terribly easy to doctor numbers and figures to add credence to propaganda.


Seriously, the people of the Middle East need to wake up and learn that unless they learn to start developing technology, which means turning away from religious extremism, they are doomed to go back to being third world nations. Once the Middle East was at the forefront of civilization, but since the rise of Islam, the Middle Eastern nations have steadily fallen behind.

The idea that Iran can compete with the U.S. is pure fantasy.


Are you serious? Seriously? My god man you could not sound more racist and 'up yourself' if you tried. For starters check out this link:

en.wikipedia.org...

then feel free after that to Google such simple terms as "middle eastern technology"

Kryties.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:58 AM
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I keep seeing one omission with most news relating to Iran. Russia and Chinas relationship to Iran. Could that be one of the reasons Israel and the West have held back on an assault? So far they have given 2 reasons to attack Iran.

Supporting Iraq with money and jihadist fighters
The uranium enrichment programs

Seems fair enough to say that if an offensive was in my back yard moving in close, I would send special units to my back yard to head the offensive off at the pass. Was it not the CIA that funded the war between Iraq and Iran with the chemical weapons???..I cant remember if it was Iraq attacking Iran or vice versa.

Seems if another neighbor already had nukes pointed at me and occassionally rattled over the airways they were going to or thinking about nuking my country or creating civil unrest.. especially after seeing whats happened in Iraq over the last 4 yrs. I would probably be rushing to get one of these big enchilada nuke bombs as well

Im just asking.
I dont know about you but it would scare the crap out of me.
I guess it would be sorta like China invading all of Mexico..what would the US do?



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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I hope that Iran does launch a nuke at someone, that way every problem this world has ever had , racism, elitism and all the negative emotions and hatreds ALL us people have will be gone in the #storm that follows.
People trying to live a normal life , being kind to one another and looking after family / children/ parents etc are not permitted to get on with what they're doing because someone else thinks that they're better than someone just wanting the day to finish .
The people in power , no matter what us norms want, always want to profit from the misery of others, whether its oil , gold , diamonds whatever. I just wish that this sinful world, and it is a sinful world by the way, would just disappear into the ether.
I know your gonna say , " Dont say things like that or your an idiot" , You know what? I couldn't give a rats backside, because look at the replies posted here, "i'm an American and I'm Great, I'm a Brit and I'm Great ,I'm a Muslim and I'm greeat. No your not , I am" .All the world does is bicker and argue like a couple fo children over a toy...
Why cant ALL the troops just say to the ones in power "I'm going Home to my family , Why should I lay down my life so you can get rich stepping on the backs of others".
If the ALL troops went home there'd be no-one to fight, and I'm talking both sides here, There'd be no wars , no confrontation, all the leaders could do is slag each other off over the radio and tv waves like a couple of drunken partygoers.
unfortunatley the world revolves around money and frankly it's upsetting that we don't move on as a people and try to get along with each other, forget religion, Believe in yourselves for a change.
forget money , you can't buy love.
There's too much hatred in the world for it to keep spining peacefully and as for this carrossel of doom and I want to get off .


This will be the only post I put in this thread and I frankly don't care what anyone says, I will check to confirm my suspicions that people will slate me and I'll only be doing that for a laugh coz you'll be proving that I'm right.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 06:37 AM
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First rule of this entire forum, and the one Americans should follow as closely as possible, is that Americans are without doubt the most ignorant peoples (collectively and individually) on this planet.

There are exceptions to this - however rare that maybe.

There isn't a country on earth where the people do not fall about laughing at how ignorant and fundamentally asinine America /s are. It is the global joke. It makes absolute sense that they think they are invincible, everyone else is wrong, weak and subservient because they nothing about :
Geography,
History,
Philosophy,
World Culture,
Religion,
........anything really.


It is a never ending source of amusement that America is beset by religious intolerance, bigotry, homophobic hatred, violence, etc.

It is a never ending source of asbolute amusement to consider that Japan is not far behind America in GDP and comprehensively smashes America on a GDP per capita basis - clean out of the water. The EU is a larger economy and more advanced in every way - as a union it dwarfs Americas "union".


Americans are the last country and people we should be listening to - Im all for positive action, integrating the lowest and intellectually weakest amongst us and giving them a voice - but lets not confuse brawn with brain.

I am seeing posts on this thread regarding the Middle east which are clearly from Americans - clearly American in that they have no idea what so ever, none.

The only thing Americans should be doing is listening, you ideas and understanding of the world is so infantile it is depressing.



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Would you please provide some verifiable evidence of the this? Perhaps a link? Without this I take your comment as nothing but speculation and bias towards the US. As far as Im concerned its terribly easy to doctor numbers and figures to add credence to propaganda.



Oh well don't sugarcoat it guy,, just go ahead and call him a liar.



Are you serious? Seriously? My god man you could not sound more racist and 'up yourself' if you tried. For starters check out this link:


Oh sure he could have called them towel heads or some other "racist slur" what the hell did he say you find so damn objectionable? How "delicate" does someone have to get when referring to islamists? That is what they are is it not? Jeeez guy get real. Your link is a bust too, I don't know what we were supposed to be so impressed with in there


then feel free after that to Google such simple terms as "middle eastern technology"


Sounds like you could have done the same thing for that "evidence" you requested since you doubted assertions about American GDP and Technologies that as you say he may have a bias toward America but it isn't as obvious as yours is against, that's for sure.

- Con




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