Stop Oil Speculation Now!

Originally posted by Rook1545

Give me some proof, any proof, that this drilling will lower oil prices in the foreseeable future. I have posted about it so many times I feel like a broken record. Short answer, it will not affect anything for the next 5-7 years, possibly 10. The right wing always seem to think that DRILL NOW is the answer, if they did their homework, they would know, it is not answer at all, it is a diversion.

Economics 101....

More supply will bring prices down. More supply will also shake up the speculators also bringing prices down.

Note to high school graduates...don't go to college because it will not affect anything for many years.....

68 million acres of unproven leases is nothing compared to the 1.1 BILLION acres off limits.

Drilling now is more of an answer than doing nothing!

reply to post by RRconservative


Economics 102...

If supply already outweighs demand, increasing that supply will not lower prices significantly.

You can whine and cry about pumping all you want. Until you have a way to process it, nothing will change. Let me make it real simple. The US refinery system is at near max. If you have no place to refine the oil, you are not solving anything, and in fact creating even more problems.

The problem is people think that the lack of supply come from lack of crude, that is false. The big problem is that there is nowhere near enough domestic refining facilities. If you were to increase the refining capacity, then you could see a noticeable drop in gas prices.

Economics 103 ...

"Stop Oil Speculation Now" and an immediate drop in oil prices.

THEN drill for more oil and build more refineries that will bring oil prices down even further in the future!

[edit on 7/21/2008 by Keyhole]

Double post

[edit on 7/21/2008 by Keyhole]

Originally posted by Keyhole
Economics 103

"Stop Oil Speculation Now" and an immediate drop in oil prices.

Then drill for more oil and that will bring prices down even further in the future!

Oh I whole heartedly agree. Stop the speculation, build the refineries, drill the oil. That would bring things back in a real hurry.

reply to post by Keyhole
Economics 104

Economics 103 works even better when the restrictions to build the refineries are not grievous. Add: shut up the enviro-wackos.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by RRconservative

Originally posted by Rook1545

Give me some proof, any proof, that this drilling will lower oil prices in the foreseeable future. I have posted about it so many times I feel like a broken record. Short answer, it will not affect anything for the next 5-7 years, possibly 10. The right wing always seem to think that DRILL NOW is the answer, if they did their homework, they would know, it is not answer at all, it is a diversion.

Economics 101....

More supply will bring prices down. More supply will also shake up the speculators also bringing prices down.

Note to high school graduates...don't go to college because it will not affect anything for many years.....

68 million acres of unproven leases is nothing compared to the 1.1 BILLION acres off limits.

Drilling now is more of an answer than doing nothing!

Again you are providing false information. Read the following article:
There IS oil/natural gas on 68 million acres!

You say 68 million of unproven leases but you claim that the acres they want to open up have proven oil supplies. Yet this article states

The 68 million acres (28 million hectares) under lease to oil companies has potential reserves to nearly double U.S. oil production and increase natural gas output by 75 percent, the Democrats claim.

Could you please start providing links and sources to back you claims. You make a lot of claims on this site and almost always fail to provide any links and you tend to dismiss the sources that others provide because it hurts your claims.

This discussion has been going on in a couple of threads but i will lay it out again.
By all accounts there are 30 billion barrels of easy oil located in the area that bush just opened up(coastal and ANWR) There is more oil located in other areas but this is shale oil and its difficult to process. At current consumption the US uses 20million barrels a day.
20million X 365 =7,300,000,000= 7.3 billion barrels
30billion/7.3billion = 4.11 years! worth of oil!

So even if we drilled all these areas, were able to extract all the oil at once, had the facilities to refine it as soon as it left the ground. We would still only get 4.11 years of oil. The fact is that there is just not enough oil in the US to supply our needs. Bottom line. I dont care what you say, just do the math. We are working with a finite supply of energy and until we start to seriously put some money into alternative energy, we are going to be in this same boat in another 5-10 years.
Oil and fossil fuels are a dying energy. We need to find energy independence from oil and OPEC.

Enough propagana RR, site you claims and do the math. Before you start giving an economics lesson maybe you should review what effect a product with a finite supply has on demand and the price.

More Links

Committee on Natural Resources

Offshore Drilling is a False Promise

The vast majority of the outer continental shelf is already open to oil exploration: Areas containing an estimated 82 percent of all of the natural gas and 79 percent of the oil are today available to energy companies through existing federal leases.

[edit on 21-7-2008 by iamcamouflage]

[edit on 21-7-2008 by iamcamouflage]

reply to post by Icarus Rising


who cares??!! just let them blow up...

stop using the car as much as possible, choose the most fuel efficient possible this alone will stop the speculation, if demand drops suddenly the speculators will loose they edge and fall.

Speculation can only temporarily affect prices. If the speculation is unjustified, there will inevitably be a correction. A sudden drop in prices. At least, that's the conventional economic wisdom.

reply to post by Distractions4Nothing


Yes but in the meantime we are getting hosed at the pump, losing our homes, and our economy is collapsing, while the government that allowed, even encouraged the problem to take root stands by and does nothing.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Perhaps you should put a little more in your own quoted source articles so that such claims are a little better substantiated. I've taken the liberty to bold the three words you omited. It's not like those three words were near the limit for quoting text, so I must assume that you left them out to hide a partisan bias.

International herald tribune

The 68 million acres (28 million hectares) under lease to oil companies has potential reserves to nearly double U.S. oil production and increase natural gas output by 75 percent, the Democrats claim.

Some of the tacticts by the Dems and their allies in the current energy debate disgust me as much as the Repub's coddling of Big Oil throughout this most recent admin.Not once have I heard anyone opposed to new fields, leases, or refineries have the character to admit that maybe they share some of the blame for the current situation from obstructionist policies toward utilizing domestic resources for almost a generation now.

I'm pretty sure that speculation is a portion of the current elevated price of oil. However I think that the market action last week tells us about how much of a speculative premium is in oil at the moment. Guess what it's about $15 dollars per barrel. Oil contract for delivery expired last week and oil dropped on short order from $145ish to under $130.

Partisan politics from either side will not solve this problem. Its something we are sorely lacking from either part--Leadership.I agree with the left that new technologies and programs (except corn based ethanol) are the long term solution and our best hope. However I agree with the right that short and medium term the best solutions are more refineries, more wells, and more area open for exploration. Sensible fuel economy standards are something the left has going short term I could get behind. It's going to take some true leadership by the party that controls the legislative branches to get anything done and they aren't showing it right now IMHO.

Speculation on anything is a two way street. How is someone who bets on oil going up more morally wrong than someone who bets that oil is going down? Two current themes winding through the popular culture are oil longs= evil and financial shorts=evil. This is very much a scapegoating of legitimate market participants while the true culprits continue to do there thing.While Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson were busy trying to save the banks and housing market they debased the dollar and that is a huge part of why you are paying $4/gallon for gas leaving us in a situation where your average working stiff still can't afford a house and is now paying double what he was for petroleum.

Yeah must be the speculation thats keeping the oil price in dollars up, I mean its not like the value of the dollar has gone down the toilet its all about the speculation right?

Im sure there are other things affecting the actual price of oil besides the value of the dollar, but when its dropped to a half what it used to be 10 years ago is it any wonder the price of the oil in dollars has gone up?

But hey its all about the speculation...

I'm very surprised that the consensus here seems to be that speculators are driving up the cost of oil. That is a load of crock perpetuated by mainstream media. There is not a serious economist off television or outside corporate media who will say that speculators are to blame for the price of oil. Sure they do have some impact, but they've always had an impact. Why is it only now that it is so serious?

The price of everything is going up. It's because of the falling US dollar. It has little to do with oil speculators. It has much to do with the out of control spending by our government, on the war, subsidies, and all their pointless bureaucracies, both parties. The Federal Reserve is creating new money like mad and it is driving the value of our dollar down.

Its Economics 101, when the supply goes up, value goes down. That's what we're seeing now with the dollar. We have been using fiat money for the last 30 years, longer than any time in American history. Fiat money always destroys itself, and that's what we're witnessing now.

The price of oil has stayed relatively constant with the price of gold. It is the dollar that is fluctuating. It is the dollar that is failing. Look around. The price of everything is going up, not just oil. Oil is first because it is a basis for all other goods. It is the first segment of the market to be affected by the falling dollar.

Remember Ross Perot? Remember what he had to say? Remember how we haven't done any of it? We're in a lot of trouble now. Listening to Fox News (of all sources?) telling you that oil speculators are driving the price of oil up is absolutely ridiculous.

MSM is pushing the idea that speculators are the cause as an excuse to give the Federal Reserve more power. It's a propaganda campaign, same as it was for the war.

Don't you guys know the plan is to destroy the US economy to force us into an economic union with Canada and Mexico? Do you think Americans would just accept the Amero? They've got to destroy the dollar first. Don't you guys all think 9/11 was an inside job? Don't you know that Osama Bin Laden's goal was to destroy the US economy? NWO had Bin Laden, or whomever carried out the attacks working for them.

Yes, that's right. It's all connected. The Fed, 9/11, Iraq, NAU, It all feeds into the same plan, the NWO. If they succeed here, it will only be a few decades until they destroy the Amero and the Euro. Then we're done.

Guys. Learn some basic econ.
STOP blaming speculators.

What is the problem we're discussing?
Rising oil prices.

What is this phenomenon called?
Inflation.

What is inflation?
Most people will reply that rising prices is inflation. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Inflation is an increase in the money supply. Read on.

How does inflation come about?
1) Politicians promise the world to the masses at no cost. (This is simply another example of buying things on credit, but now on a much larger scale.)

2) They don't have the money, and they need to borrow it, so the (privately-owned) central bank prints more, and loans it to the government at interest (indebting the public forever).

3) This newly printed money, as it is created out of thin air, dilutes the value of ALL the currency in circulation.

4) Since it starts out slow and subtle at the beginning, it takes a long period, sometimes even decades, but parts of the private sector begin to notice the phenomenon taking root, and begin charging more for goods and services to compensate for the loss in buying power.

5) This same phenomenon eventually finds its way (again, slow and subtle for decades) into raw materials. Only when commodity prices start to rise do people freak out.

So was it speculators who caused this?
- If your answer was no, congratulations, you may have some aptitude for economics and finance.
-If your answer was yes, you're probably the type who wants to vote for MORE political interference in the markets. Stop short-sellers! Stop investors! Unfortunately, you're simply voting for yet more of the same. It was the politicians all along, who got you where you are today. Go back and read bullet point #1.

Some food for thought:
- The cure for prices is higher prices.
- "5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly."

Communist Manifesto #5,
Karl Marx & Fred. Engels

- "Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the Capitalist system was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens... while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some... who are (then) the object of hatred."

John Maynard Keynes

Think...before you speak, or suffer for your words.
-Anthrax

I'm embarrassed for a lot of people in this thread.

Icarus Rising, you and many others in this thread have no idea how a free market economy works. No idea at all. You HAVE to have speculation because free market economies include a FUTURES MARKET.

When companies like Southwest Airlines or General Mills buy jet fuel and corn, respectively, they purchase contracts on the futures market. For example, Southwest Airlines is currently turning a profit when nearly all other airlines are losing money because long ago, they purchased $100/barrel oil contracts on the futures market. Now that oil is in the $140/barrel range, they're still getting $100/barrel oil because they already paid for it.

Futures markets allow companies to buy products in the future. Could you imagine what it would be like if Southwest Airlines had to order jet fuel on a daily basis?! What if there isn't any available that day? Do they just close up shop for that day? They have to buy their jet fuel months in advance so the supply is already paid for and will be ready for delivery that day!

Guess how those future prices are determined?

You guessed it. Oil speculators.

Oil speculators are a necessary part of the economy. Without them, no futures markets would exist, and the economy WOULD NOT WORK. You HAVE to have speculation for business to be conducted. The reason why oil speculators are driving the price of oil up IS A SUPPLY AND DEMAND ISSUE! OIL SPECULATORS ARE THE MESSENGERS! PUNISHING THEM WOULD BE AKIN TO PUNISHING THE PAPER BOY FOR DELIVERING YOU A PAPER WITH A BAD HEADLINE!!!!!!!

Again, you and many others in this thread need to get educated about how the economy works. Oil speculators are driving the price of oil because it is THEIR JOB to gamble on whether or not it will go down or up in the future. When they see a Democrat-controlled congress hellbent on the global warming hoax that REFUSES to increase supply while worldwide demand continues to skyrocket, they bid the price up. Wouldn't you? You'd be an idiot to bid it down! It is THEIR JOB to bid the price up. The Democrats in Congress are the ones running up the price of oil, NOT THE SPECULATORS. If the Democrats cave and we can drill for more supply, the oil speculators will do their job as usual and bid the price back down just as quickly as they bid it up.

Please, get a clue on how the market works before you complain. Wouldn't you shake your head in embarrassment if you saw someone blaming the paper boy for delivering them a paper with a bad headline? That's how I feel for a lot of you guys right now There was a time, many many years ago where I blamed speculation for a lot of our problems. Then I actually educated myself on how the economy works. With fuel prices being so high, I find it sad that so many of you have refused to educate yourselves on the subjects.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by ChocoTaco369]

Originally posted by Grafilthy
I'm tired of "oil speculators".....

I want names, companies.......info on these guys.
They need to be exposed to the people for what they have been up to.

You're not going to get any names on these people. They're just your average
Joe and Jane working to feed their families. They just do their job. You already know the names of the people responsible for driving up oil prices. They are as follows:

-Nancy Pelosi
-Harry Reid
-Barbara Boxer
-Diane Feinstein
-Barack Hussein Obama

and hundreds more Congressional Democrats.

Give me some proof, any proof, that this drilling will lower oil prices in the foreseeable future. I have posted about it so many times I feel like a broken record. Short answer, it will not affect anything for the next 5-7 years, possibly 10. The right wing always seem to think that DRILL NOW is the answer, if they did their homework, they would know, it is not answer at all, it is a diversion.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

Not even close.

Bush lifts the executive ban on drilling. Prices drop $16/barrel. Why? Because oil is controlled on a FUTURES MARKET. If we start drilling TODAY, prices will drop TOMORROW because the speculators that control the futures market will know there is more supply coming and will adjust accordingly. Prices are high now because we're not doing a damn thing about increasing supply. You, just like the OP, have no idea how the economy works. You're buying into LIES that the Democrats tell you in their speeches to attempt to sway the ignorant public into not drilling. You, sir, are part of the ignorant public as you do not understand how the futures markets work.

If we start drilling today, expect prices to fall under $100/barrel in a week or two. We have NEVER been serious about finding new oil and building more refineries in over 30 years. If we actually GET SERIOUS, prices will SERIOUSLY DROP years before a single drop of gasoline reaches our gas tanks.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by ChocoTaco369]

Originally posted by Rook1545
Economics 102...

If supply already outweighs demand, increasing that supply will not lower prices significantly.

You can whine and cry about pumping all you want. Until you have a way to process it, nothing will change. Let me make it real simple. The US refinery system is at near max. If you have no place to refine the oil, you are not solving anything, and in fact creating even more problems.

The problem is people think that the lack of supply come from lack of crude, that is false. The big problem is that there is nowhere near enough domestic refining facilities. If you were to increase the refining capacity, then you could see a noticeable drop in gas prices.

Wrong again.

First off, there is almost no buffer in the supply of oil for the world. We barely have enough as it is, and flooding the market with more oil, regardless of our refining capabilities, would significantly relax prices thanks to a larger buffer zone.

And yes, our refinery system is in dire straights and needs to expand, that you are right about - but that's all you're right about.

Again, oil is traded on a FUTURES MARKET. The FUTURES MARKET sees China, India and many other countries growing like wildfire. They see China, India and EVERY NATION IN THE WORLD with a coastline cobbling up as much oil as they can...that is, every nation EXCEPT US! China and Cuba are drilling off our coastline but we aren't!

The speculators see a world that is growing and is increasing their oil supply accordingly, and they see an America that is growing and is not increasing supply at all. Supply is tight enough as it is, and in a few years, there will not be enough oil for America as everyone else is taking oil that could and should be ours. We are not staking our claim to new oil fields being discovered. THAT IS WHY PRICES ARE HIGH!


reply to post by Rook1545

No, it would crash things in a jiffy as markets don't work without speculation. Look at the Democrat's track record. Everything they touch, they destroy and make 10 times worse. The fact that you hang on the lies they speak of scares me.

It's the FUTURE conditions that rule the FUTURES MARKET.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by ChocoTaco369]

reply to post by Icarus Rising

The oil problem is a supply and demand issue caused by government red tape. Oil companies are not allowed to drill and build more refineries. This is what is driving the price of oil high - government regulations.

So, your solution is to impose MORE government regulations

The only way we are going to get out of this mess is to cut the government red tape and DRILL OUR WAY OUT. And YES, WE CAN DRILL OUR WAY OUT OF THIS! We may not ever see $0.99/gal gas again, but we could easily drill ourselves to the $2-$2.50/gal range. We have to let the free market do its thing. Free markets take care of themselves. Government regulation is what hampers the ability of the free market to take care of itself. You guys need to learn this. It really is that easy.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by ChocoTaco369]

reply to post by jefwane

In response to that article, there are A LOT of things the Democrats don't tell you.

Leasing land does not give you the right to produce oil on that land. There are leases that allow you to explore, leases that allow you to drill test wells and leases that allow you to produce oil on the fields.

The 68 million acres the Democrats are talking about that the oil companies lease don't have the right to produce oil. They are free to explore for oil on those lands. Some of the lands they are free to drill on. BUT THEY CANNOT PRODUCE A DROP OF OIL!

That is where the Democrat's numbers from from. It is the addition of the land leases the oil companies own that they cannot produce oil on and the land leases oil companies own that they can produce on but there is no oil there to produce. There's your 68 million acres - nearly all useless.

That's how the Democrats lie to you. They tell you half-truths. They tell you the oil companies have land they don't use - that's true - but they forget to tell you that those same Democrats won't let the oil companies produce any oil on that same land.

It's DESPICABLE!