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Jobless to work 'clearing litter'

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posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 07:23 PM
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So, what's wrong with this? It's called WORKFARE. You want a hand-out? You've got to contribute. File papers, clean parks, clean roads, whatever. If it was good enough for my grandfather, it's good enough for them. At least it's not CHARITY this way. It's a hand-UP!




posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 03:06 AM
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reply to post by Nunny
 


Are you a National Socialist?

You are espousing National Socialist policies - so perhaps you are a party member?

The war in the East needs more soldiers, perhaps they should be drafted and sent there. Britain needs more Lebensraum.

Britain America Uber Alles?



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by OldMedic
 


They wundt starve, they would go in to crime and rob you and kill you.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by Niall197

Originally posted by Firefly_
I think its disgusting. Forcing people to work full time for next to nothing is wrong.


Believe me, it isn't "next to nothing" ... far from it, especially those claiming Incapacity & DLA. My bro is a single guy, he's got schizophrenia & genuinely can't work in the 9-5 scenario with a conventional employer. The amount of ££ he gets in is a real eye opener ...

Income Support - £60.50+£25.85+£50.35+£12.60 = £149.30
Disability Living Allowance - £67.00+£17.75 = £84.75
Total Personal Benefits = £234.05 per week.

Housing Benefit - £375 per month topped up with £25 from the Council Discretionary Fund = £400 pcm = £92.30 per week

Band B Council Tax Benefit - £65 pcm = £15.00 per week.

Grand Total = £341.35 per week or equivalent to a job giving you a net salary - net not gross - of £1479 per month, which must be roughly equivalent to job paying £21000 a year, if not slightly more.

And I earn just over £15000 a year working a 42 hour week. He sits on his a** all day smoking cigs and watching tv. All this extra money he gets isn't in itself going to make him better healthwise. In fact my Mum doesn't know what to do with it, she can't spend it quick enough. At the moment she hasn't collected his last 10 weeks benefit from the Post Office because he's so close to being over the limit for savings. That limit is £16,000. I've got £300 left in the bank to do me until the 31st July.

He's got a fantastic blu-ray dvd collection right enough. Pity I just can't afford a player to watch them on.

The joys of being employed.


Just to quote on you there. Everything is correct there but I end up with maybe 150 by the end of the month after bills and food with benefits your referring to.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by deathpoet69]



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by deathpoet69
 


The government seem to be going out of their way to encourage civil disobedience and even rioting on the streets so that it can introduce more legislation which takes away your liberties and human rights. How much longer before you place a curfew on teenagers being free to walk the streets after a certain time? At what point will it become necessary for the government to forcibly restrict your freedom of movement just incase you have explosives in your backpack or plan on speaking out against them. The web is the last refuge for free speech and it wont be long before they start to try and take that away.


Yea that is whats happening, I can feel it becoming more tightly in contorl than ever. Its becoming a place were i wundt like to be in a couple of years. Were just sitting here talking about it on the net doing nothing, i know we cant do much but look at us, its really pethatic.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by Firefly_
reply to post by Dulcimer
 


OK try starting your own company. Unless you are very lucky and find a decent gap in the market, you are going to be competing against already established companies, and thats going to be a major uphill struggle. Thats assuming you can somehow raise the capital in the first place to start the business. With the credit crunch, im sure its not just mortgages that banks are cutting down on.

Also how is a person on benefits going to be able to afford shares? Personally, my conscience wont allow me to work for these companies or buy shares in them. Its bad enough being forced to buy food from them especially now food prices are rocketing along with other costs involved in getting that food. I feel sorry for people who are forced to waste their lives away working for barely anything above minimal wage while their bosses get rich off their work.

I can understand why people disagree with my views though.


I have already got a company that is just about to get registration legally lol. Its just starting up. I got the money by saving up all the incapacity and job seekers over the years lol then ill be off on my way to tax credit. you have to be bright.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by deathpoet69

I am living proof of claiming incapacity benefit here in the U.K. What you have said their is possibly the majority of lazy arsed smack heads & alcoholics who are making it worse for people like me who really do want to work who have no idea how to f**kin integrate with society. I have been in ten jobs since i was 18, i am now 25. These jobs lasted only one week or a month at a time it has been like that since I was five years old since I was at school with moving nine primarily schools.
My girlfriend is 20 stone, she's judged by the way she looks, she has been to interviews and turned her down, she has to now lose weight and learn how to be more confident in this competitive world.


So, you're saying that you have a bad attitude in some way (only reason I can think of for being let go that many times) and your girlfriend is overweight(? Not real familiar with the 'stone', so I'm guessing form context), and because of that you can't work?


There is some genuine people who are claiming benefits who have genuine problems and who genuinely want work and can not find it or can not keep a job.


Based on the assumptions I made above, I see the problem. It is that you want a job, but you want the job to be exactly what you want to do, not what your employer wants done. That's not a problem with the employer; it's a problem with you.

A job only exists because someone wants/needs someone to perform a task. It does not exist because you want it. It is not a right, nor an entitlement. If you want to be paid, you have to perform useful work, not just do whatever you want to do. That is called 'fun', not work.


Some of the people claiming have been excluded from schools in the past because they have been pushed aside and not taken care of and that's why there is many aggressive criminals about.


"Taken care of"? Wait, did someone not wipe your nose when you wanted them to? Oh, how terrible. Hey, here's a great idea: how about taking care of yourself? I do, and so do millions of other people around the globe.


I am telling you now, this wont work they will back fire because the people on these's benefits will go to crime to a great extent and you will be in more danger that you even realise.


Ah, the obligatory threat paragraph. "Give me what I want or I'll hurt you." Now how could any employer refuse someone with that attitude?



People on these's benefits consider people like you morngy about the current situations because you are suffering yourself, poor you who has to suffer on mortgages, poor you who has to feed your kids and cant afford it cause your in debt because you want to take them on holiday or you want a nice car. POOR SHAMEFUL YOU WHO CARES TO MUCH ABOUT THE MATERIAL WORLD AND NOT ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR WORLD.


Speaking for myself, I care quite a bit about my world. That's why I want lazy whiners to get out and do something, before the workers have to retire and there is no one to do anything. Well, almost anything, sounds like there will be a lot of professional cryers.


Am sorry, but some of you may not even know the half of it, most of us want to work but we need education but if it comes to that we will make our own business's and become self employed.


I'm sorry, were you refused education when you were younger? I thought the UK had a similar public education system to what we have here, where every child gets to go to school. Oh, let me guess, you quit.

As for starting your own business, that is actually a great idea! Now stop threatening and do it.


its people who want others to suffer that will suffer more greatly than they can ever imagine.

Another thing, do you think I enjoy sitting in the Library all bloody day on the net? do you think I like the fact am around trouble making chavs?.


Oh, how terrible it is to work for 4 weeks a year, or eventually have to actually work for charities to help out people who genuinely need it in return for your refusal to work in the public sector and your insistence on getting money for nothing. You can always try and hide your attitude a while and get a real job, then this wouldn't even affect you.

It sounds like it might be preferable anyway, since you hate your present life so much. Hey! Wanna swap lives for a couple weeks? I could use a vacation.


I want a life and career however how can I? when the world is so competitive now, I have go to college to get anywhere higher, I am 25 I have lost out on a lot of things, by time I finish a qualification Ill be 30 and then ill be to old to consider possibly?.

I need life coaching, anger managment, anxeity management and a few other things well before i can get a job and get to a certain image i want. I like to eb a soilder or a police officer but i had two cautions already so I don't know how that will turn out. To be honest though, I dont think its going to effect the chavs they wont even care.


If you want a life and career, all it takes is for you to go get it. No one is going to hand it to you, and you'll have to work, not play. Everyone with a job has to do this, and you are not special (spatial, maybe). As for your age, exactly how old will you be in 5 years if you do not go to college?

You don't need any of these things, these are simply excuses you are using to justify your present life choice. Life coaching? What in the name of Robert E. Lee is that? Someone to hold your hand so you can live? Anger management... sheesh, how about just biting your tongue and growing up. Anxiety management? Give me a break, you're not anxious; you're childish. Get off your rump and get out on the street and try to find something to do. And when someone gives you a chance, take it and don't screw it up.

And before you start whining about this, no, I do not 'hate' you or want you to 'suffer'. I want you to be able to hold your head up and be a man. I want you to take some pride in yourself. I want you to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. I want you to feel like you're somebody, because you are.

TheRedneck
(yeah, I'm back from working for a living)



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by Firefly_
First of all, I'm glad to see you've already risen above your old self. Congratulations, and that is not sarcasm. I mean it.

That said, it sounds like you've still got a ways to rise. Your attitude says you do not like the capitalist system we have because it hasn't done what you wanted. Again, it's not about you, you, you, it's about everyone, everyone, everyone.

Yes, this life is the only one we get. That is why we should all make the most of it and improve things for everyone as much as we can instead of lying on our butts and crying when someone doesn't do for us everything we want them to. Or maybe they expect something in return?

You say you are sick and unable to work. I don't know you, so I will accept that. Someone who is truly unable to work should be given enough to live comfortably, although it is a sad fact of life that those unfortunate souls will probably never live in a mansion and drive a Lamborghini. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. When I was disabled, I received no medical care, no disability, and no help from anyone except my wife. I battled back from it, out of necessity. Try raising a growing family of four on $500 a month and $300 food stamps. It ain't easy. I did it.

Those companies you won't work for? They're owned by people probably a lot like you. The difference is that you are only looking at things from your personal point of view and not theirs as well. You want to be paid well, do a comfy job, and get lots of time off and nice benefits. They want to be paid well too, but in order for either of you to be paid, they have to make money. If they pay their employees too much, they won't make any money, and the jobs are gone bye-bye along with the whole company. If they pay too much for benefits, the same thing happens. If you're not at work every day, they have to hire someone else to do your job, and than why do they need you?

They're not 'evil', they're trying to make a living.

I also can't state anything about the benefit amounts, as I have trouble figuring out what a decent wage really is in the UK. I know about how much a pound is (+/- $2?), but I have no idea of the cost of living. And while we're at it, mind telling me what a 'chav' is? Sounds bad from the context, but I'm not sure. Also, how many pounds are in a 'stone'?

And here I thought we both used English.


TheRedneck



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by Fang
 


Taking jobs away from citizens and exporting them into the Prison-Industrial Complex is always a bad idea - the sight of Chain gangs might give you some satisfaction, unless you lost your job to them.
Road Work and landscaping should be done by paid citizens using the free market system. So should every job.
No private company should be able to run it's business out of a prison. Prisons should not be privately owned.

Prisoners should not be forced to work or punished if they don't. It is not in their sentence , and is unconstitutional. They should be used in emergencies, where emergency supplemental labour is required.

Paying prisoners 15 cents an hour to do the jobs of an honest Citizen is tantamount to the theft of whatever job the prisoner is doing from the Free Market. Why do you think America has so many prisoners? They put them to work, it's like having your own little china.


I wasn't talking about 'Chain gangs' but something closely related to repairing the damage (not always material) that has been caused to the victim. A direct link needs to be established between the effect of the crime on the victim, the criminal and the punishment.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
I also can't state anything about the benefit amounts, as I have trouble figuring out what a decent wage really is in the UK. I know about how much a pound is (+/- $2?), but I have no idea of the cost of living. And while we're at it, mind telling me what a 'chav' is? Sounds bad from the context, but I'm not sure. Also, how many pounds are in a 'stone'?

And here I thought we both used English.


TheRedneck


www.antisocialbehaviour.org.uk...


"Chav" The origins of the word 'chav' are somewhat unknown. However, a stereotypical chav will be somewhat lacking in intelligence, culture and possess an in-bred nature of stupidity and a totally blinkered attitude.

Sometimes described as 'burberry' wearing individuals, the typical chav can often be seen indulging in anti-social behaviour in many environments, whilst casually dressed in tracksuit and (cheap gold jewellery) 'bling', coupled with an assortment of head gear (most often a cap). 'Chavs' are known for their regular participation within situations closely connected with many different types of anti-social behaviour. The chav can often resemble the Neighbour From Hell (NFH).

Some claim the word 'chav' is an acronym for Council Housed And Vulgar.


Some would say it's a new form of elitism, however chavs by bature are the packs of kids you see standing on street corners, gettting very drunk and intimidating anyone who comes near.

I have to ask redneck, do you think everyone on Incapacity Benefit is a scrounger? I myself am on it, i worked very hard for years, i had my own business and all was well until i got ill I can't work, i've tried everything i can, including an eBay business but even that was just to tiring to run. Some of us want to work, we just can't. I am unable to put into words just how much i hate sitting on my arse all day being given money, some people might like it but it disgusts me.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by deathpoet69

Another thing, do you think I enjoy sitting in the Library all bloody day on the net? do you think I like the fact am around trouble making chavs?.

I want a life and career however how can I? when the world is so competitive now, I have go to college to get anywhere higher, I am 25 I have lost out on a lot of things, by time I finish a qualification Ill be 30 and then ill be to old to consider possibly?.

I need life coaching, anger managment, anxeity management and a few other things well before i can get a job and get to a certain image i want. I like to eb a soilder or a police officer but i had two cautions already so I don't know how that will turn out. To be honest though, I dont think its going to effect the chavs they wont even care.




Why are you in the library on the net all day, especially if you don't like it ? Isn't there something a bit more productive that you could be doing ? And i mean more productive for yourself. What about spending a couple hours a week volunteering someplace where you could help others that need it, in doing so i'm sure that it will help you integrate with society and help you to build some relationships with people that that may be able to help you find employment, or at least give you a good reference.



You feel you're too old at 25 to go back to school ? No you're not, a person is never too old to continue their education.



I raised my sons by myself and when they we're older i went back to school to get my G.E.D., i was 36 years old when i did that. I worked my butt off to pass with a high enough score to be eligible for a scholarship for college, and i did it. I was 38 years old when i started college, it took me a little bit longer to get my associates than it should have due to family obligations, but i got it, and it felt damn good.


I'm not trying to talk down to you, just point out that you shouldn't let your age prevent you form getting a higher education. Wouldn't you rather be 30 with a gollege education, than 30 and still where you're at right now ? And believe me they're not going to be prevented from considering you at the age of thirty, most employers are highly interested in people of that age.


I'm not sure what you mean by "life coaching", the only life coaching that i'm aware of is the coaching that you receive from your parents while growing up ( and some of us don't receive that ) and after that it's called living life and coaching yourself through it. Life is "hands on", you learn as you go through it.


Anger management, anxiety management, etc, you've got it all right there in front of you as you sit in the library all day. Instead of surfing the net all day, pull out some books on what you have problems with and read up on it, you'd be surprised at what you can acomplish on your own. You'll never get anything, or anywhere with what the goverment gives, only with what you give yourself. Start out small and work your way up, you can accomplish anything that you really set your mind on & work hard to achieve.


Can you please tell me what chavs means, and stone ?



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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What about people with mental illness such as severe agoraphobia etc...Does this apply to them or only those who are deemed fit to work...but...basically sponging off the system?


Oh and about the Chav *thing* we call them Neds or Ned...Non Educated Delinquent/s,these sorts of thing dont help anyone,but hey language is language and culture is culture...

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Lethil]

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Lethil]



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:32 PM
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Hold on a minute. The unemployed should be out trying to FIND employment. How can they do that if they are out working for benefits ?
Sounds to me like they hav'nt quite thought this through.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
Thanks for the definition. Over here, we just call them 'punks'.


I have to ask redneck, do you think everyone on Incapacity Benefit is a scrounger?


No, absolutely not. As I have stated, it behooves any society to care for those who are physically (or mentally) unable to care for themselves. The problems are those who either are hypochondric ("I don't feel good today; I think I'll quit and draw my 'pennies'") or those who simply don't want to work. I'm sure you have seen many people in this thread who have this strange idea that anything given to you by the government is some sort of 'right'. It's not; it's charity. And there is nothing wrong with charity when it is used to help those who need help.

But whenever a system allows widespread abuse, those truly in need suffer more, because the benefits that could be going to them are instead going to lazy bums. That harms everyone, from the payers who have to pay more, to the payees who receive less per.

TheRedneck



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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I still think that the bottom line here is that it's simply way less expensive to pay jobless people sit on their butts and watch TV than it is to organize work teams, hire managers, create a bureaucracy to track all the associated paperwork, find transportation, carry liability insurance, and so on and on and on. Just from a simple economic standpoint.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by deathpoet69

Another thing, do you think I enjoy sitting in the Library all bloody day on the net? do you think I like the fact am around trouble making chavs?.


People like you get firmly lodged up my nose, if you don't like something then change it, it isn't that hard if you really want to do something and have the health to do so.


Originally posted by deathpoet69
I want a life and career however how can I? when the world is so competitive now, I have go to college to get anywhere higher, I am 25 I have lost out on a lot of things, by time I finish a qualification Ill be 30 and then ill be to old to consider possibly?.


You really are lazy aren't you? I'm 22 (23 tmorrow btw). If i can get my arse well again then i'll be straight to college and off to uni, i imagine i'll be around 30 or older when i graduate but you know what? I don't mind because i'll have achieved my goal. Maybe you should stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop putting up obstacles that just don't exist and go for it.

Like isn't easy, achieving anything big shouldn't be easy either as achievment without hardship rarely gives a satisfied feeling in my experience. I suggest you watch this video below if you can be bothered, it pretty much sums up my view of life and i've shown it to a few people who've been inspired by it.

Randy Pausch - The Last Lecture

video.google.com...


Originally posted by deathpoet69
I need life coaching, anger managment, anxeity management and a few other things well before i can get a job and get to a certain image i want. I like to eb a soilder or a police officer but i had two cautions already so I don't know how that will turn out. To be honest though, I dont think its going to effect the chavs they wont even care.


Life coaching? Are you kidding me!? Basically you want someone to tell you what to do, how to do it and have to do as little as possible to get it. You are a waste of space and you damn well don't belong on a benefit i had to fight to get over 6 damn months. It's exactly people like you that hold up the system, reduce the payments to such low amounts it's hard to live off of and are the cause of this government turn around on benefits.

You seem to be the classic problem with our society, people who feel they're entitled without ever having to do much for it. People who think they have all these problems when in fact they have no real problems at all. Get off your lazy arse and go to college if that's what you want to do. If you sit around and flap that mouth of yours for the next 10 years then it will be a lot of time lost.


Originally posted by TheRedneck
No, absolutely not. As I have stated, it behooves any society to care for those who are physically (or mentally) unable to care for themselves. The problems are those who either are hypochondric ("I don't feel good today; I think I'll quit and draw my 'pennies'") or those who simply don't want to work. I'm sure you have seen many people in this thread who have this strange idea that anything given to you by the government is some sort of 'right'. It's not; it's charity. And there is nothing wrong with charity when it is used to help those who need help.

But whenever a system allows widespread abuse, those truly in need suffer more, because the benefits that could be going to them are instead going to lazy bums. That harms everyone, from the payers who have to pay more, to the payees who receive less per.

TheRedneck


Ahh well that i can agree with then, good to know. I get very tired of lazy people, people wh see obstacles in their path and just can't be bothered to knock them down. I bet very medical student, solicitor and scientist has had to break a few barriers down on the way to their futures. It's how it should be, we live ina society however that has indoctrinated a large part of itself with the idea that you either shouldn't have to work or you should be able to do nothing and be rich.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jul, 24 2008 @ 03:38 AM
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I looked at this in detail for the mental health charity I work at to see how it would affect people who are ill and claiming Incapacity Benefit.Firstly,these propsals(to abolish income support and incapacity benefit by2013)are nothing more than that at present.The Welfare Reform Bill is in it's Green Paper stage meaning it has to be discussed by parliament and passed to reach the White Paper stage where it can be put into effect.The aim of the bill is two fold;to decrease dependancy on socials security and weed out the 'scroungers' ditto with the abolishment of incapacity benefit.There has been enough abuse of the system towarrant the government to propse this action and thereby benefitting taxpayers whose revenue funds the system.Personally I would feel more comfortable if an equal amount of legislation were aimed at high earning tax dodgers but as Polly Toynbee pointed out in her column on these proposals in the Guardian that Alaistar Darling recently caved into the City on propsed tightening up of tax loophole legislation.So welfare is a more easy target than wealth but thus it was ever so.



posted on Jul, 24 2008 @ 03:41 AM
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If you want to find out more about the Welfare Reform Bill in detail here is a link to the Labour Party website;










www.labour.org.uk...



posted on Jul, 24 2008 @ 03:44 AM
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reply to post by candyfloss
 


A simpler and cheaper solution would simply be to vet everyone currently on the benefit. If you don't have a clear medical condition then you're off it, seems good to me. Redesigning a whole new system would be far me expensive and people will still find ways to heat the system.

I agree with getting long term unemployed to do work, but not people on disabilitya nd incapacity benefits. If you're on one of these then by that very nature you should be unable to do work, if you can do work then you shouldn't be on the benefit. Pretty simple really.



posted on Jul, 24 2008 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


People who claim incapacity benefit are already vetted.They have to see a doctor who re-asses their illness to see if they are entitled to claim.However there is alot of controvesy around this already.A whole new system is not being designed just of the aforementioned benefits .Other benefits ie;child benefit ,housing benefit will remain in tact.
I don't think the idea is to chuck the disabled and ill on benefits off them en mass,that goes against socialist principles,the idea is to try and prevent people who are falsely claiming they are too ill to work but who are perfectly capable of working.Part of the problem is the two strands of political thinking.The right have been tradionally veiwed as the social Darwinist party ie;survival of the fittest and less state interference in peoples lives(the nanny state) and the party of less taxation ,the rich and the middle classes.While left operate by obviously on socialist principles of supporting the most vulnerable in society;people who are ill,disabled or have to act as carer's etcThrow class differences into the mix and you have a heady brew.Some people are upset because they feel like this is the kind of thing the Tories would do if they got into power whist others are very pleased and feel like this is long overdue.




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