I don't see it as chains, and you can say we are slaves all you want.

But slaves are not slaves should they choose it. There is nothing enslaving about making abortion illegal other than forcing people to take care of their responcibilities.

Should there not be laws pertaining to the health of children? If they are beaten or malnouished, should that go unpunished?

Or should we just allow people to raise their kids like they want?

Maybe we should let them beat them to death over two days with an umbrela. That is the real face of freedom.

Maybe we should let them beat them to death over two days with an umbrela. That is the real face of freedom.

So if there wasnt a law against it you would beat your children to death? Rape your neighbors wife? Steal his car? Kill his dog?

Seriously is the law the only thing stopping you from doing this?

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
You either are for killing babies because they aren't what you ordered, or you are against it.

OR YOU COULD GIVE THEM AWAY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT FITS YOUR NEEDS!
I am so sick of this "killing baby" bull# you throw around. maybe it's my guilty conscious.....I don't know.....but why you think it's ok to give a child life and then turn your back on them and give them away is any better than abortion is beyond me. I think you need to check yourself on this one. Maybe that's what lets you sleep at night.....

Like I have said before.....we all have our beliefs. Just because adoption is what you chose to do and you can live with it....doesn't mean everyone can. And I know the same is true with abortion. But at least I know my unborn child isn't being neglected or abused and if I go to hell for my decision......I'll have lots of company.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
There is nothing enslaving about making abortion illegal other than forcing people to take care of their responcibilities.

You have lost your mind!!!!

How exactly are you taking care of your responsibilities by handing a child over to someone else to raise?

Abortion will never be illegal. I promise you that!

Originally posted by Venus
OR YOU COULD GIVE THEM AWAY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT FITS YOUR NEEDS!

My needs? We are not talking about me for one.

I am so sick of this "killing baby" bull# you throw around. maybe it's my guilty conscious.....I don't know.....but why you think it's ok to give a child life and then turn your back on them and give them away is any better than abortion is beyond me.

By this rational, it is better to eliminate life than to risk them having a bad home. It's just too bad that from your exerience, as extensive as it must be, all children that are adopted are beaten and abused wishing only to die and praying for the death of their birth parents that they did not kill him to save him the pain of living. Truely this is a sad viewpoint.

I think you need to check yourself on this one. Maybe that's what lets you sleep at night.....

What let's me sleep at night, is the fact that I try to speak for those who can not look you in the eyes and tell you when you think is wrong.

Like I have said before.....we all have our beliefs. Just because adoption is what you chose to do and you can live with it....doesn't mean everyone can.

I feel no pain for those who think it is easier or more selfserving to eliminate a child rather than to give it up and "wonder" what is happening to it. You obviously know little of the adoptive process.

And I know the same is true with abortion. But at least I know my unborn child isn't being neglected or abused and if I go to hell for my decision......I'll have lots of company.

Perhaps, but I am not one to condem you. I have no need. I do not think that the choice to abort a baby is a precurser to hell, nor would I presume to speak on the eternal life of another.

Originally posted by Venus

You have lost your mind!!!!

How exactly are you taking care of your responsibilities by handing a child over to someone else to raise?

It is the responcibility to the life created. Should you not have the ability to care for the child, there are many who can. Problems must be dealt with, not eliminated.

Abortion will never be illegal. I promise you that!

This I truely doubt. Perhaps the 4-5 vote now seen in the Supreme Court is outside your knowledge. Should Bush be elected again, I can almost bet that it will change.

KJ: Abortions will never go away, get over it. Even if it was made illegal tomorrow, it will go underground. It will go back to coathanger abortions. It won't be stopped, only illegalized.

Very well, so be it. But the 35 million dead children will warrent nothing less.

At least if they were illegalized, there would be some resource for prosicution.

Take the Lacy Peterson case for example. The fetus was found to have been murdered. Trust me, things are beinging to change.

And not to your benifit might I add.

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by KrazyJethro]

[Edited on 16-3-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

I didn't mean the government should moderate every decision in our lives.

What makes things wrong anyways you have to ask? Is it wrong to kill just because it is illegal? Or is it just a human instinct to know it is wrong. We all know the answer. What makes it wrong to crash 2 planes into a building, law? No its just wrong and our human nature knows it.

In all of existence have you ever read in history about legal gay marriage? Why do most americans feel it is wrong? Because it isn't natural. Neither is abortion or many other immoral things that are legal to do in the states. Freedom is one thing, doing what is right is another. Whose the judge in the end. God himself.

I still will not let these issues affect my presidential vote and don't feel others should. Sure I understand not supporting a baby murder and someone who supports gays, don't like it either. But I don't feel the president will ever be able to change anything.


[Edited on 16-3-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

[Edited on 16-3-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

I hear you on the abortion topic.

But as for gay marriage, perhaps people could feel adverse to homosexuality, but as for the marriage itself, well that would be a given.

I think that things like welfare, the divorce rate, homosexuality and the like are sociatal issues rather than governmental ones.

I did a lot of thinking about this and I think what upsets me is the fact that you are calling abortion murder and in reality, I suppose you are right. But I am still extremely grateful to have the right to choose, whether you look at it as murder or the end of a "problem". As far as it ever becoming illegal........it's not going to happen and I don't even worry about it. At this point in my life I would never consider aborting another child ( I aborted one) but I would not want the right taken away from other women. I am also very against men stating their opinion on the issue (as you already know). For anyone who thinks that it will be overturned....take a look at these statitics and keep in mind most of these women also VOTE.

One in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45.
In 2000, 6.3 million of the 62 million American women of reproductive age (15-44) became pregnant.
64% of these pregnancies resulted in live births
21% in abortions;
The remaining 15% ended in miscarriage.

56% of women having abortions are in their 20s;
61% have one or more children;
67% have never married;
57% are economically disadvantaged;
88% live in a metropolitan area;
and 78% report a religious affiliation.

I looked into adoption in your state and found that at this moment there are 140+ children waiting to be adopted. That is only Virginia. I can only imagine the number nation wide. I am also wondering how many children you have adopted into your family?

Originally posted by Venus
I did a lot of thinking about this and I think what upsets me is the fact that you are calling abortion murder and in reality, I suppose you are right.

Thank you for that. I can't help but agree.

But I am still extremely grateful to have the right to choose, whether you look at it as murder or the end of a "problem".

The ability to choose has never been the scope of the arguement. Anyone has the right to choose anything they wish, the only condition is whether they are willing to pay the penalty. Therein lies the problem, as of now, there is none.

As far as it ever becoming illegal........it's not going to happen and I don't even worry about it. At this point in my life I would never consider aborting another child ( I aborted one) but I would not want the right taken away from other women.

The right to, as you admit, murder is never a right. As it stands now, your rights only extend to the begining of another's, namely the child. You also have the right to say no, the right to be responcible beforehand.

I am also very against men stating their opinion on the issue (as you already know).

I am sure you do, and as wierd as it may sound, I understand. But the fact is, is that we have a serious problem with the men in this country as well. They are generally ignorant, misbehaving turds who do not know how to treat women and wouldn't know real respect if it bit them on the ass. The day needs to come when the hardworking, responcible men in this country stand up and fight for our rights with the child. As a father I know that there is no love like that of a parent, and I feel for the few men who actually want the child and are not allowed because the mother can kill it without him (not always the case, depends on the law).

For anyone who thinks that it will be overturned....take a look at these statitics and keep in mind most of these women also VOTE.

Very true, but you neglect the very large population of women who are against abortion and fight it bitterly.

One in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45.
In 2000, 6.3 million of the 62 million American women of reproductive age (15-44) became pregnant.
64% of these pregnancies resulted in live births
21% in abortions;
The remaining 15% ended in miscarriage.

56% of women having abortions are in their 20s;
61% have one or more children;
67% have never married;
57% are economically disadvantaged;
88% live in a metropolitan area;
and 78% report a religious affiliation.

I looked into adoption in your state and found that at this moment there are 140+ children waiting to be adopted.

That is sad, but these things happen and nothing can be done. You can not excuse wrong with wrong.

That is only Virginia. I can only imagine the number nation wide. I am also wondering how many children you have adopted into your family?

My oldest son Connor is adopted (well, we are still in the middle of it). I am not all talk.

Well, on abortion, it is a womans choice, us men should stay out of it. My mother had an abortion when she was twenty something, and later had my sis and me when she was able to.

Second, to KJ and the others saying well, you had the kid, take care of it. What about a woman who was raped? Was it her choice to get pregnant? What about a couple who used protection cause they didn't want a kid yet but the protection failed? They didn't want the kid but now she pregnant, should they be forced to have a kid? What if they have 5 kids, are in debt, poverty, welfare, so forth, and get pregnant again? Should they have the kid because they can't get rid of the mass of cells no bigger than a penny?

Besides, it's a womans body, why should you or me tell them they can't? And remember, pro choice is pro choice, not pro abortion. I don't support abortion, but i do support a woman's choice.

I am sure this will sound heartless, but trust me when I say that I do not mean it like that.


I can not go around and hold people's hands. I can not tell everyone to use a condom. I can not make a budget and plan with every person who sucks with money. Sometimes people just have to pay for their mistakes. Life is unfair, but the punishment lies not with the child, but squarly on BOTH the woman and the man.


As for rape. First I want to say that rape is one of the most discusting and demented things someone can do to another. I am sad in that it happens so often, but can do nothing about it.

It is not right to punish a child for the sins of his father, and although it is overused two wrongs do not make a right.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people, but that does not make them bad, rather how they handle it could be.

KrazyJethro - since you are in the middle of an open adoption.......I think you need to read this:
(I can't stop crying) ~Venus

Adoption agencies and lawyers stress to potential adopters that "openness agreements" are INFORMAL AND CAN BE MODIFIED LATER ON. They also define "open adoption" as there being "some degree of information exchange between parties." Thus, if you know the first names of the adopters, then it's technically an "open adoption" and they have no further obligation towards you. Once they become legal parents, they have NO obligation to honour ANY promises they previously made to you, in ANY STATE OR PROVINCE.

"I thought that if I gave my son up for adoption he would have a better life. She also promised me that if I did let them adopt my son that I could see him whenever I wanted and nothing would really change. I would always be welcome. A week after I signed the papers, she changed her tune. All of a sudden, I was a 'bitch' for giving up my child. I was an 'irresponsible' parent,etc. My son is now ten-years-old, 'she' has long since divorced her husband and remarried TWICE and her biological son forced my son into doing sexual acts!!!! The courts gave my son back to her!!! Now, none of us sees him at all." - Melinda James, Kansas"

"I had my son when I was 21. Unfortunately, I was much too naive to understand my rights ... I played right into the hands of a couple looking to adopt -- a couple who told me they'd watch him for the few months it took me to get back on my feet during my divorce and getting out of the Army. Well, they took my 18-month-old from me. He's now seven years old now, and I don't know where they are. PLEASE don't let anyone do this to you. Find out what legal assistance is available and don't ever give up! - From a grieving mother, Jennifer from Florida, July 2001"

"Yes, and to anybody considering adoption.. do not fool yourself. I was not stupid. I didn't just pick some couple out of a hat. This couple was perfect on paper. Young, financially secure, passed a homestudy with flying colors. They were sweet, and sympathetic, they praised open adoption and even agreed to include Dylan and my little sister in the openess. Just like most liars, they were good at their lies. I fell for it, hook line and sinker." - Kati, on Adoption Insights

"I promised an open adoption to a first cousin, I fulfilled all my obligations -- she has very cruelly broken hers. She has repeatedly placed my daughter, now 8, in danger due to a meth addiction. She burned their home in 1998 by meth lab, and my daughter is now going through trial -- molested and abused at 4 and 5 -- still being left with single, unstable alcoholics and drug abusers -- and no-one including CPS cares. An illegal adoption by fraud, undue influence, duress, deceit, drugs/narcotics, child endangerment, cruel mental & emotional cruelty to me & my daughter now 8 -- no one cares." - Sonya Tucker from Texas

"I am the natural mother of a adopted child. My mom took her away from me at the age of 16 and gave her to the DSS people. After they took her, they told me I could not get her back and had to give her up for adoption or give her to some one who could not have kids. So a girl friend at school told me she had a brother and his wife who could not have kids, and they wanted her. They told me that I could see her after they got her. They didn't want me to see her. They split-up in three years and moved with her to another state. I found her -- now she is 27 yrs old and doesn't want to see me - she was told that I wanted nothing to do with her." - Donna from South Carolina

"I put my first son up for adoption 12 years ago. This was thru an agency that is still operating out of San Antonio TX. It was supposed to be a 'semi-open' adoption. I was to receive, at minimum, an annual photograph of my child. In the first year of his life, recieved two very nice letters & two sets of photos from the adoptive parents, whose names are Bob and Marianne. After that, they never sent me anything, ever again. I have been pleading with the adoption agency for over a decade to do something, to correct this situation, but they won't do anything. They just give me the same old run-around year after year. I don't know if my son's alive or dead. What was done to me was unethical in the extreme, if not illegal. The agency misled me about what I could expect from them and from the adoptive parents. They took advantage of my youth and ignorance. My son's name is Ben. He'll be 13 in June. I think about him every day and wonder if he's okay." - Heather Webb, TX, USA.

"I waited until my son was 18 and I sent a letter to the address I believe he is living. It was an 'open' adoption in the sense that I know where he lives and got a picture once a year. (I am so grateful to know he is at least outwardly in good shape, but he looks so angry in the pictures.) The letter was delivered and not returned, but there is no contact from him and I am coming to believe he wants none. The anger and fear are fresh, and neither my husband nor my long-time friends understand, though they try. I have told my daughter that I had a baby a long time ago but he couldn't come live with me and it is very sad. That's about all she can handle. One of my worst fears was realized - my son doesn't want anything to do with me. Another huge fear of mine is that my daughter will think I think children are expendable because I 'gave' him up for adoption." - Anne.

"My family didn't believe that I could be a good mother, so they took my babies from me. They needed me to sign the papers, so they told me that I would be able to see my children as much as I wanted. So I did what I thought was best. I was so young. Now my kids live with some family far away and I never get to see them and I never get to talk to them. My heart breaks everyday, and I feel like there is nothing I can do. I miss my children so much." - Shannon, Texas

"The adoptive parents PROMISED me phone calls and pics every month. Well, guess what?? Now they have changed thier phone number and i get no more pics. My son is only almost 4 mos. old. They want to forget that I ever existed. My heart breaks over & over again every morning when i have to wake up without my precious son. There are not even words to describe what i am feeling." - Nancy Horton, Virginia

I am not in the middle of an open adoption.

My son is my wife's child and I am his father because his real father is human garbage.

As for the "horror stories" you've so pleasantly posted, don't you dare even try to throw that # in my face.

First off, although you have no idea, my wife had a son when she was 18 and couldn't care for him. She researched parents and even when through a Christian adoption agency.

After the adoption, the couple got mad at the birth father and cut off ties to my wife as well even though she did nothing wrong.

I am the one who has to comfort her when she cries, not you.

Even though all that happened, she is still for adoption and open adoptions, and against abortion.

What's your excuse?

I think your real problem is not with abortion at all, but rather with the justice (or lack thereof) in this country and the human race in general.

I can't blame you there, but that is not a reason for 35 million dead children.

I'll now return you to your sympathetic sobbing

I cry for them............not you or your wife! Although I cut and pasted this.....I could not say it better myself:

ADOPTION IS CHILD ABANDONMENT


Dreaming the care-giving parent remarried and the new step-parent adopted your offspring is shallow. Many an absent parent lulled themselves into believing this happy outcome. Their abandoned child was much easier to forget. It was, and still is, a perfect way to ease your conscience. For countless thousands of little fatherless/motherless children this simply never happened. And to this day, your adult child still suffers.
Children grow up wondering why their daddy/mommy abandoned them. They wonder if they looked like you. Their loss was and is real and very painful and lasts a lifetime. Peers teased them unmercifully. Your absence was acutely felt on parents’ day at school. Their heart has a big hole in it. Be a man and fill it. Be a woman and fill it.

There is a great possibility your abandoned child will subsequently abandon their offspring. It is part of learned behavior. You taught them the other half of parenting skills. Avoid responsibility. Leave. Get out. Your contribution to your child's emotional education is shot full of holes.

Doesn't "your son" ask why she couldn't accept her responsability? I'll bet he wonders why you have other children that you didn't abandon. Maybe you ought to smack her around a little until she tells you what YOU want to hear. I am sure she cries daily for the decision she made..................I DON'T!

One last thing......................Your guilty conscious is showing.......better get a grip

It's just too bad your child won't learn.... hmm, ANYTHING.

It's a good thing you think all adoptions are like that.

What in your life has made you such a bitter wench?

Ah, who knows. Better yet, who cares.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
What in your life has made you such a bitter wench?

ROFL

Idiots like you..........of course! Have a nice day!