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If Revelations is about Rome, what is the Mark of the Beast?

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posted on Mar, 21 2010 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


If you wre correct about the prophecies of Revelation being completed or fulfilled under Nero, then can you please tell me when we sawr a world war where 200 million soldiers marched and fought?

[edit on 21/3/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]




posted on Mar, 21 2010 @ 09:41 PM
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Hi Neo-Mystic--

First of all, the textual mess of the Greek hand copied manuscripts for TheApocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (‘Book of Revelation’) makes reading / translation into modern Prose (including its symbolic numbering systems) difficult at best & the oldest Greek MSS of “Revelation’ don’t match each other letter for letter –what we have is a horribly mangled hotchpotch of really bad non matching Greek texts full of Grammatical HOWLERS, childish spelling, often impossible syntax & meaningless sentence constructions.

SO -- BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT BEING DOGMATIC WITH A TEXT YOU CANNOT RECONSTRUCT, LET ALONE READ IN THE MESSY GREEK TEXTS SUCH AS WE HAVE THEM

The ‘original language’ of the book could hardly be GREEK anyway- but a mixture of late Hebrew & Aramaic Midrashic Dirge Poetry (alla the Scroll of Lamentations of Jeremiah & parts of Daniel) with some rare OT Targum quotes for Midrashic Expansion (his quotes from Daniel use the rare Greek OT LXX of Theodotion, for whatever reason).

Almost every separate Oracle of 12 lines in the Book of Revelation is OUT OF ORDER in the GREEK MSS –and are filled with 60+ ‘MARIGNALIA’ (later scribal insertions, or faked additions in PROSE worked originally into the margins & later copied into the text itself when re-copied -- notice how these INTERRUPT the poetical metre of the under-text—despite the warnings at the end of the book which forbids copyist scribes from doing just this.

In the quote below I have used CAPITALS to show you the marginalia inserts some of which ALTER the meaning of the originalPoems.

Just so you know: Rev 9:16 is ALSO a big MESS as it stands in the text: it does NOT grammatically / logically follow what immediately precedes it (i.e. Rev 9:14-15) but INTRODUCES a whole NEW section.

See the Reconstruction from the Greek back into the 12 lineAramaic stanzas: QUOTE

9:13 And I looked, and behold I saw the 6th Malak (‘Messenger’) approach:
Holding a Ram’s Horn in his Right hand,
And lo, the Malak began to blow upon it.
And turning, I immediately heard a Voice [of Thunder]
And behold, the sound was coming from the Altar
Even out of one of its 4 Golden Horns !

[*in the margin: ‘THAT IS, THE ALTAR OF GOLD STANDING BEFORE THE FACE(S) OF EL’]

And lo, the Voice thundered [a string of] Commands to the 6th Angel

[*in the margin: ‘THAT IS, TO THE ONE HOLDING THE TRUMPET]

Go to, & unbind each of the 4 Malakim
Even they who have been kept bound within the Great River Euphrates !
And I looked, and behold, I saw: The 4 Malakim !
And lo, they were being unbound [from the River]
So that once loosed, they can genocide 1/3 of all mankind.


[*in the margin: ‘THESE ARE THE SAME WHO HAD BEEN WAITING FOR AN HOUR & A DAY & A MONTH & A YEAR’]

After these things, I looked, & behold, I saw: A Great Cavalry !
And lo, the numbers of the Horsemen was Myriads upon Myriads
But I had actually heard some very large obscure number
And in my Vision , I looked [closely] at the Horses [themselves]
And also upon all those who were mounted on each of them,
And behold: they were wearing breastplates of fire, jacinth & brimstone !

And I looked, & behold, I saw the Horses Heads !
And lo, they were as the heads of Lions;
And out of their mouths issued Fire, Smoke & Brimstone !
And lo, The Killing-Power was placed in their Mouths & Tails
And behold: their Tails were like unto Serpents tails,
and their Heads [like scorpions?] that could wound the sons of men.

[in the margin: ‘IT WAS BY THESE 3 THAT 1/3 OF MAN WAS KILLED THAT IS BY FIRE SMOKE & BRIMSSTONE ISSUING FROM THEIR MOUTHS & AS FOR THE REST OF MANKIND WHO DID NOT DIE IN THESE PLAGUES THEY DID NOT REPENT OF THE EVIL WROUGHT BY THEIR HANDS, FOR THEY WORHIPPED DAEMONS & GOLDEN IDOLS & GODS OF SILVER, STONE, WOOD, GOLD & BRASS WHICH ARE DEAF & BLIND & CANNOT WALK NOR DID THESE REPENT OF THEIR KILLING & WITCHCRAFT & ORGIES & RAPINE’] UNQUOTE

The context is the Blowing of the 6th Ram’s Horn & ‘the loosing’ of the 4 Malakim (‘messengers’, ‘angels’ ) bound in the river Euphrates, who were sent out to genocide 1/3 of the world, according to a ‘Divine Timetable’ which Apocalytpically-minded ‘Roman-Occupied’ 1st Century Jews wrote about (e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters at Seccacah/Qumran (‘Spiritually called Damsaq’) where the War of the Sons of Light is fought according to a strict ‘angelic’ Calendar.

The Greek NUMERICAL adjectives used in Rev 9: 16 are NOT LITERAL but meant to be taken as ‘round numbers’ esp as Poetry =meaning ‘a VERY large group something’:

"DISMURIADES-MURIADON’ (Dis=’Twice’ x Myriads-Myriad) = A single MURIAD in Greek =10,000 (taken literally)

So… TWO Myriads = 20,000, i.e. the TOTAL number of the Mounted Roman Cavalry Horsemen (‘Equites Romani’) which existed during the outbreak of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome inAD 66-72 i.e counting all mounted contingents and auxiliaries of ALL the Roman 49 Legions combined: hence a possible reference to NERO's times.

Rev 9:16 (wherever you want to stick this Oracle in the text) doubles that number of horsemen yet again – basically like saying AS MANY AS TWO-ROMAN ARMIES was done purely for POETIC EFFECT would equal(literally) 40,000 - a number you cannot take literally, but we are here dealing with ORACULAR POETRY not literal images.

Literal numbers that some read into Rev. 9:16 (‘200 million’ or some fanciful number) were not practical in ancient counting systems – people then used common images people could picture easily - cf Gen 32:12 – Jacob’s descendants =’as the number of grains of sand on the seashore’ or ‘as the number of stars in heaven’ = a big number, but not literally to be counted 1 grain at at a time.

Reducing this poetic expression to literal arithmetic misses the meaning = (i.e. ‘nearly infinite’)

Modern ‘Christians’ have a habit of making their own sense of the text & take 9:16 as part of 16:12 (when the Euphrates ‘dries up’ following the pouring of the [6th]Vial, followed by another MARGINALIUM [ ‘NOW THIS WAS DONE TO MAKE WAY FOR THE KINGS OF THE EAST’]

There is NO indication that these 2 widely-separated verses Rev 9:15, 9:16 &16:12 are related – despite the efforts of Hal Lindsey (to mean e.g. China’s 200 million man Army as some modern day Eastern Invader !





[edit on 21-3-2010 by Sigismundus]



posted on Mar, 21 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 

Revelations isn't about Rome. It is about the reveal of Christ. The mark of the beast is called karma, that is, a do over if you will. This is why the smoke of them goes up forever. Doomed to repeat. Your soul is weighed in karma. If ones soul is found wanting after trial, you have procured another go round on Mary to be purged. God doesn't play favorites. Your judgment weighs you itself. God judges no one. God gives life.

Peace



posted on Mar, 21 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass (tabacco) of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. (Cancer)
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. (See logo)
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.




Phillip means "Fond of Horses"
Morris means "A Pike" which is a thrusting javelin, the stinger which was in the tail.
The heraldry of the name is it's description.
The horses racing into battle is the Marlbouro man rounding up cattle.

Peace


[edit on 22-3-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]

[edit on 22-3-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]



posted on Mar, 22 2010 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Thanks for your swift reply.
If I can only get my act together I start studying Koine Greek this autumn, and I will start studying the texts first hand on my own to better get an understanding of the texts.

As for the two-ten-thousands times ten-thousand, these days it's actually possible to wage a war counting this amount of soldiers. Allthough I appreciate your knowledge (which is normally way beyond my own in this matter) on behalf of the texts, I will stick with what researchers have agreed upon for now, but I will keep yoour words in mind. Anyway, thanks



posted on Mar, 22 2010 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


you can also find that logo on the tbn channel and pne of the flags of turkey



posted on Mar, 22 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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posted on Mar, 23 2010 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by BreakinThEwaLL
 

Yeah true but you fill find heart disease is the number one killer not a country just something to think about. You will also find that smoking is sorcery as sorcery is taking drugs. Drugs are how spells are cast. Love potion number 9.

Peace



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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There is an end time revelation concerning the beast and the mark of the beast. It is something that i had never heard of before. but GOD revealed it to me in April 2010. You know the number 600 is found in another location in Revelations but yet it does NOT look the same as in Rev. 13!
The same with the number 60 and the number 6. The mark of the beast numbers are NOT just numbers. They are symbols. To find out what these symbols are please read the full article at www.isawthelightministries.com...
Important End Time Revelation!
It's NOT what you think!



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by pastortim
 


The real number of the beast is 616 (666 is a later "correction") and the name of the beast (the Roman name) is Jesus (becomes 616 in Hebrew gematria in that lettering), the mark is Sunday worship and Easter, and the number itself is meaningless unless you wear a wrist watch and don't understand the riddle. The beast itself is the Roman Empire, Babylon is the Vatican, and the false prophet is the Pope.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
the mark is Sunday worship and Easter,

So, in other words, nobody is allowed to "buy or sell" (Revelation ch13 v17) unless they practice Sunday worship and observe Easter? Where is this being enforced?



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
the mark is Sunday worship and Easter,

So, in other words, nobody is allowed to "buy or sell" (Revelation ch13 v17) unless they practice Sunday worship and observe Easter? Where is this being enforced?


Well have you ever tried to buy beer in a shop on a Sunday or during Easter? I don't know about your country and your laws, but over here you'd have to respect this rule unless you're out of business.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Well have you ever tried to buy beer in a shop on a Sunday or during Easter? I don't know about your country and your laws, but over here you'd have to respect this rule unless you're out of business.

In most varieties of Christian faith, practicing Sunday worship and celebrating Easter involves a lot more than "not buying beer".



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Well if we hadn't had Christianity and the Church we could have traded exactly what we wanted on Sunday, banks would be open, the stock exchange, the Senate and so on. Sunday was the "Sabbath" of Rome, and was introduced as a Christian "Sabbath" by Emperor Constantine at Nicea. In the Torah Saturday worship and Passover is to be worn like a mark on your hand and your forehead.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
 

And is anyone, at the present time, preventing people from buying or selling unless they go to church on Sunday and actively celebrate Easter?

"The mark" in revelation, is not just something people are encouraged to do- it is an enforced condition of life.
In fact, there is a clear implication, later in the book, that those who do not take the mark are beheaded. You must admit that the church authorities do not have this power.


[edit on 26-5-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
 

And is anyone, at the present time, preventing people from buying or selling unless they go to church on Sunday and actively celebrate Easter?


Directly? no. Indirectly, yes, indeed as I just pointed out. You must respect the law or you're out of business. Trading is limited to the other days of the week.


"The mark" in revelation, is not just something people are encouraged to do- it is an enforced condition of life.
In fact, there is a clear implication, later in the book, that those who do not take the mark are beheaded. You must admit that the church authorities do not have this power.


As you could've been a few hundred years ago and back to Nicea. Infact, you could be burned at the stake if you owned a bible and wasn't entitled to. So much for love your neighbours. When the Pope ruled Europe for more than a 1000 years, this would indeed be the result if you engaged in commerse on a Sunday or during Easter, and it wouldn't amaze me if there exists a decret still not made invalid where the office of the pope declares how people can be hanged, decapitated, burned at the stake or whatever for such "crimes".

[edit on 26/5/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
 

There is no suggestion, in Revelation, that the power of the Beast and the enforcement of his authority, wanes before the final destruction brought by God in the later chapters of Revelation.

The church powers you mention have waned, and are obviously continuing to wane. Therefore the great power of evil which will survive until the end must be sought elsewhere.

I'm not convinced that either of the Beasts of Revelation ch13 have arrived in the world, or that they will arrive until the "four horsemen" of ch6 have run their course.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Science' Lamp conquered the beast, but didn't fight it. Truth is his name, the rider who conquers all ignorance, with his legs rootet in Africa, the burning furnace, and his head reach the upper parts of the world with hair as snow.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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To add my 2 cents worth--I am inclined to agree with the post by doctorex. I believe that a beast in the Bible is a symbol for a human government or kingdom (e.g. Daniel 7:17). And the fourth beast of Daniel 7 equates with the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Notice that the latter takes on the most notable aspects of the preceding beasts of Daniel 7, which it follows. Hence, the OP is correct to assert that the beast of Revelation is Rome or the Roman Empire, which was prophesied to be resurrected or revived ten times before the Second Coming of Christ. And we see this in various imperial revivals in history since the fall of Rome in 476CE upto modern times with the most recent and most destructive revival having been the Nazi empire in WWII. And now we are witnessing the 10th resurrection with the European Union. It is my own belief that the final make up of the EU will number 10 nations or groups of nations, which will be led by a charismatic leader or dictator (possibly of German descent) who will align himself with the Papacy, which will be headed by the Anti-christ or False Prophet at the time performing "miracles" to deceive people into voting for and following the policies of the Beast. This combine of Church and State will enforce its policies by force--one of which will be the "mark of the beast." I believe this "mark" is Sunday, which the majority of Christendom has agreed upon as the Sabbath, but according to the Bible is a counterfeit to the seventh-day Sabbath (or Saturday) www.scribd.com.... Remember it says that the mark has to do with "buying and selling" or commerce (Revelation 13:17). As support we are already seeing in European countries news of trade unions and others protesting to have Sunday marked as a work-free day throughout the Union sofiaecho.com.... This will undoubtedly make it increasingly difficult for Jews and Sabbath-keeping Christians to keep the true Sabbath holy in obedience to God's commandments. And it's not surprising to see how the current financial crisis (like preWWII led to the rise of Hitler) is leading to calls for a supranational government or greater political and economic union, which no doubt will come out of it and in time conform to Bible prophecy. Looking even further perhaps this, besides other issues (e.g. economic, political, social, etc.) will undoubtedly create friction between it and America, Britain, Israel and their allies, and will lead to the EU later invading Israel to impose "peace" triggering global war and the fall of America and her allies in a shorttime frame. It's possible that like Vichy France the EU will install its own puppet government in whatever's left of America and Britain that will undoubtedly lead to huge loss of life through slave or concentration camps (or the Great Tribulation), which in turn I can imagine will lead to underground resistance groups forming and fighting against the dictatorship right upto the return of Christ.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by cameraobscura]



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by cameraobscura
 


The beast of Revelation has seven heads. In Daniel the four beasts have seven heads in total, and the last one has ten horns. That equals seven heads and ten horns in total.

In Daniel, the first beast has two eagle wings. These two wings are the two preceding world empires Egypt and Assyria, and the beast itself is Babylon. The second beast has three ribs in it's mouth. These three ribs are the three former empires, and the beast itself is Medo-Persia. Then we have Javan who is Greece, with four bird wings which are the four former empires. Then comes Rome with it's ten horns and is different than the others in that it doesn't seem to "carry" the former with it. But the sum of the attributes of the former is 2+3+4=9 and one of the ten horns is pulled out (10-1=9) and three new come out where the horn was plucked which gives a total of 12 horns in the end. In Second Ezra there is a beast with twelve wings and it's obviously Rome. However, in Revelation there are two beasts, one being the beast of Rome with seven heads and ten horns, and another with two horns with a sum of 12 horns and a total of eight heads, with the eighth being the beast itself.

As you see these equations rely on eachother and sums up nicely, and it's obvious, atleast to me, that these books speak of the same things, only using different symbols.



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