Are we Americans now barbarians and savages?

Are we Americans now barbarians and savages?

americanjourney.blogspot.com

I am still reading Military Journal of the American Revolution by James Thacher MD , and came across the following passage on page 67 regarding military engagements between the colonists (our American forefathers) and the British during the Revolutionary War. These battles/skirmishes occurred around White Plains and the River Brunx- Thacher writes about some prisoners taken by the Americans:

"A number of Hessians and Waldeckers have fallen into our hands. The German officers and soldiers by a finesse of the British, to increase their ferocity, had been led to believe that Americans are savages and barbarians, and if taken, would have their bodies stuck full of pieces of dry wood and in that manner burnt to death. But they were very agreeably disappointed, and much pleased, on meeting civil and kind treatment."

(visit the link for the full news article)

"Note to everybody: Things have changed - we may have to torture (click) you if you are captured now because the "War on Terror", whatever the hell that means,requires it - although the revolutionary war didn't- so torture, although ineffective even from a practical standpoint, is now official policy, as is preemptive war.

So I guess the history books now will read: "Our enemy was told we would torture them if they were caught (even if they never had a trial and were not convicted of anything) and found that Americans were savages and barbarians."

Later, following the battle of Trenton (the one where GW crossed the Delaware ) Washington released the captured Hessians "General Washington allowed the Hessians to retain their baggage, and sent them into the interior of Pennsylvania, ordering that they be treated with favor and humanity. This conduct, so contrary to their expectations, excited their gratitude and veneration for their amiable conqueror, whom they styled "a very good rebel." "

Things have definitely changed!!

americanjourney.blogspot.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Things really have changed. Instead of fighting enemies that are in uniform fighting for their countries, we have terrorists hiding among civilians. No codes of conduct, no Geneva Convention concerns, just killing in the name of their vile prophet Mohammed, may God...nevermind. (had to edit myself)

One thing that hasn't changed since the Revolutionary War is our humane treatment of prisoners. That is what made America great then and it continues to this very day.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by RRconservative]

Originally posted by RRconservative
Things really have changed. Instead of fighting enemies that are in uniform fighting for their countries, we have terrorists hiding among civilians. No codes of conduct, no Geneva Convention concerns, just killing in the name of their vile prophet Mohammed, may God...nevermind. (had to edit myself)

One thing that hasn't changed since the Revolutionary War is our humane treatment of prisoners. That is what made America great then and it continues to this very day.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by RRconservative]

Ok so these enemies are fighting not for their countries but because their prophet told them to? Prove it.
And if they wore a uniform then that would be fine?
And what does terrorist mean?
And they hide amongst civilians...maybe they are civilians that want you out of their countries?
And if they kill in the name of their vile prophet why do they protect Christian Palestinians and Christian Lebanese from....YOU?
You think God would even remotely LIKE YOU?
And who did 9/11?
And who financed the terrorists in Europe in the seventies or the terrorists in Iran or even lets see.....who created the Taliban and hailed them as freedom fighters?
Who made millions of Christian and Muslim Palestinians exiles from their own land and how was that achieved?
And what did YOU do to the Vietnamese and why?
And what does the CIA do in its covert operations?

Oh...nearly forgot...who killed 80 million American Indians...maybe they weren't wearing uniforms...I get it..right..you are not serious are you???

reply to post by bubbles75


You got a good point and thank god my relations came over on a boat after way after that time.

reply to post by RRconservative


"RRconservative" can you please answer "bubble75"!!!

We can't change the past. The European invaders that came here from the 17th -19th century basically practiced the Roman style of warfare which was kill the foot-soldiers and ransom the officers. The Continental Army under Washington direction was considered savage by European standards of the time because it targeted and killed officers in battle and humanely treated the foot soldiers when captured. The British officer corps was aghast at this policy as they were largely from nobility and felt their lives were more valuable than their conscripted enlisted men or the Hessian mercenaries. The CA was fighting in a style that they'd been fighting for over 100 years against the Native Americans. The 1st Geneva Convention was written after 1864 and the modern rules established in 1925. Terrorism isn't warfare, it's a criminal activity and should be treated as such. The current US executive administration decided it wanted to treat it as an act of warfare in order to justify its bombing and invasion of foreign countries. No one with a lick of common sense can dismiss the fact that Bush and Cheney had other motivations for their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan besides rooting out terrorism. As far as the torture of detainees/pow's/ enemy combatants, what did you expect from the NAZI trained CIA. The Nazi's weren't the first to use torture against captives but they certainly turned sadism and cruelty into a science. This 'science' was then spread to both sides during the Cold War and used through out the world in the many battlefronts like Korea, Vietnam and now the Middle East. Of course Saddam's,the Shah's of Iran and the Ayatollah's secret police forces had used these same methods long before the current US involvement in the Middle East.

O wait...so the Geneva convention is ONLY applied when the U.S. is in its crosshairs? So blending into local populations, using human shields, attacking civilian centers, threatening families, murdering fathers and sons to decrease the chance of them rising against a gov't, raping and mutilating women,wives,daughters, and little girls is ALL FICTION? This goes BEYOND Iraq. This BS trend of people ASSUMING that the world is stable and NOTHING is going on outside of Iraq, because we are in Iraq ,being cold heartless killers is OVER. Our military men and women are not these cold blooded monsters you guys make them out to be. Where is your outrage at Darfur? Somalia?China?Iran? O wait....It is all a lie that I am perpetuating because I am pro-troops. I don't like Bush...his policies...nor his actions. There...it's out of the way. I am neither republican nor democrat. I want to know WHY ISN'T THE REST OF THE WORLD HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS ?
NKorea-nothing going on here...move along
China-We have the Olympics...nuff said
Iran-I don't wanna destroy Israel...death to Israel! (this is a sarcastic quip)
Darfur-won't even get into this one
Kenya-genocide
The list goes one.

[edit on 20-7-2008 by djvexd]

[edit on 20-7-2008 by djvexd]

reply to post by RRconservative


While I do agree with your first paragraph, I have to question your second...

One thing that hasn't changed since the Revolutionary War is our humane treatment of prisoners. That is what made America great then and it continues to this very day.

Are you freakin' kidding me? What rock are you living under that you can say that with a straight face? Does your definition of HUMANE vary depending on the circumstances?

Originally posted by RRconservative
Things really have changed.

You're right. They have. We went bat-guano crazy (at least some of us did, as you frequently prove) in our lust for blood after 9/11.

Instead of fighting enemies that are in uniform fighting for their countries, we have terrorists hiding among civilians.

I see. So all those CIA agents and undercover US military intelligence guys who run around paying off "friendly native forces" (Terrorists) to overthrow their democratically-elected, pro-worker, populist governments in favor of dictators who allow US companies to build sweatshops run by slave labor so you can buy your Wal-Mart jeans a few dollars cheaper and think you're getting a good deal--you know, those guys don't wear uniforms either, and they hide among civilians... And Special Forces working in-country to train terrorists don't wear Insignia so they can be disavowed... Hmmmmmm......

So what does that make us?

Oh yeah, Terrorists.

No codes of conduct, no Geneva Convention concerns,

Dog attacks, crapping on the Koran, sexual abuse, beatings, starvation, waterboarding--ALL used by US forces.

just killing in the name of their vile God "Money", may God...nevermind. (had to edit myself)

(edited that a bit more for ya)

One thing that hasn't changed since the Revolutionary War is our humane treatment of prisoners.

As long as those prisoners play by the rules you dictate, right?

what made America great then and it continues to this very day.

Our "greatness" becomes less "great" every day Treason Boy Bush sits on his duff in the White House.


[edit on 7/20/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by djvexd
O wait...so the Geneva convention is ONLY applied when the U.S. is in its crosshairs?

Your "Terrorists" aren't a country. Hello? The Geneva Conventions are agreed upon by signatory nations. If you're a civilian yourself, one whose home is being occupied by an invader, and you fight back--are you really going to make sure that what you're doing is "legal", or are you going to get mad, pick up a gun, and kill the nearest soldier you see as punishment for Americans killing your sons or daughters during one of their bombing runs? These so-called "terrorists", most of them at least, are either civilians fed up with the occupation or tribal partisans out to kill members of rival tribes. They have no legal obligation to follow the Geneva Conventions.

However, as a signatory, WE DO. What part of that do people not grasp?

So blending into local populations, using human shields, attacking civilian centers, threatening families, murdering fathers and sons to decrease the chance of them rising against a gov't, raping and mutilating women,wives,daughters, and little girls is ALL FICTION?

Same tactics gangs have used in the US since gangs of various kinds first came to this country. The Mafia. Crips. Countless others. And what do we do about them?

Do we go to freakin' war with them?

Do we arrest members and torture the living Hell out of them so they'll rat out their buddies?

No.

We treat them as a law enforcement problem. We use due process to find the guilty and then we punish them. We don't level whole city blocks to kill one guy with an AK-47. We don't fly Apaches into LA on extermination missions. We do police work, gather evidence, and present our evidence in an open, public trial in order to win convictions against the perpetrators. We put the bad guys in prison.

And we can do the same in regards to "terrorists". If we went that route the international community would gladly help us.

But then we couldn't use our fight against "terror" as a cover story for stealing land and resources from those countries we invade and occupy (sorry, I meant "liberate from their brutal dictatorial governments").

This goes BEYOND Iraq. This BS trend of people ASSUMING that the world is stable and NOTHING is going on outside of Iraq, because we are in Iraq ,being cold heartless killers is OVER. Our military men and women are not these cold blooded monsters you guys make them out to be.

No, they're impressionable young men and women who are trained to follow the chain of command and their orders without question. The orders to torture prisoners came from the top, not from some two-bit non-com on the scene.

Where is your outrage at Darfur? Somalia?China?Iran? O wait....It is all a lie that I am perpetuating because I am pro-troops. I don't like Bush...his policies...nor his actions. There...it's out of the way. I am neither republican nor democrat. I want to know WHY ISN'T THE REST OF THE WORLD HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS ?
NKorea-nothing going on here...move along
China-We have the Olympics...nuff said
Iran-I don't wanna destroy Israel...death to Israel! (this is a sarcastic quip)
Darfur-won't even get into this one
Kenya-genocide
The list goes one.

Actually the list goes on. As for why the rest of the world isn't "held to the same standards", they are.

N. Korea hasn't actually attacked anybody. Its people are very patriotic and from all accounts, they're happy with the regime in power. As long as they don't start lobbing nukes across the 38th Parallel there's nothing to be done.

China gets a pass because the industrialized world uses it like one gigantic cheap consumer crap factory, and because they hold vast amounts of debt. As a matter of practicality nobody wants to tick 'em off too much, lest they wake up tomorrow to find their loans and favors called in and their leaders answering to Beijing. Also, like N. Korea, they haven't actually attacked anybody.

Iran has been so mischaracterised it's almost laughable. Not only have they not attacked anybody, the Iranian population is one of the most open and free in the Middle East. Certainly far more "Western" and "civilized" than our ally and bowlin' buddy Saudi Arabia. You wanna see human rights abuses like all the ones you described? SA's where most of that crap comes from. It's a breeding ground for Wahabbists.

Darfur and Kenya, well, I can't tell you why nothing's being done. I'd guess it's because the African continent has yet to be fully exploited, and keeping the various nations destabilized fits into the plans of the mega-rich elites.

And frankly it doesn't matter what standard the rest of the world is held to.

As Americans our duty is to take care of America, not those other nations.

We are held to a high standard because we helped to set that standard in the first place.

We were the Good Guys, the White Hats, the Cavalry coming to the rescue.

Now... Not so much.

And it's nobody's fault but our own.

And to say "But what about..." is the height of childish incompetence. Most of us wouldn't accept that kind of excuse from our kids if they misbehaved. To use it to try and excuse our own abhorrent behavior abroad proves our lack of maturity and our disingenuous nature.

This is no way for the greatest nation ever to pop up on this Planet Earth to act.

[edit on 7/20/2008 by The Nighthawk]

I'm going to answer the title question specifically.

Are Americans savages and barbarians? No, not for the most part. However there are a few, a very powerful few, whose actions and policies make us appear that way. There is also a general acceptance of the barbaric methods employed by those in power, characterized by the disenfranchised as "The powers that be". It is what it is.

Look, the common person is not warlike, War is NOT something we need in order to exist as a species, survival is NOT the whole of life's purpose. I think if we take a look around, this becomes extremely apparent. Can Americans be barbarians and savages? Yes, and so can the British, whose empirical rule on the Old World was(And in some cases is) a very brutal and barbaric period of world history. How about the Japanese? Can they, what we Americans normally perceive as mild mannered people? Absolutely. The Empire of Nippon killed millions in China during the course of World War 2. The Arab Nations(Barring a few exceptions) engage in barbaric acts tied to antiquated ideals held over by their Mujahedeen forefathers. The Arab world as it truly stands today, is much like the UAE, or even the USA in many respects, but like here in the US, they are ruled by the paranoid relics of the Cold War. Hence the "War on Terror" and the pervasive Islamic Jihad mounted against the western world.

I think the real question is, how long do we allow these Cold War relics to lead the world into the desperation and terror of what they once foresaw as a threat coming from the Soviet Union? How long will we allow these relics to govern with antiquated ideas and ideals that may have been good for that time, yet serve little purpose in a world much more interconnected than it has ever been? How much more war can the peoples of the worlds' many great nations endure?

I assure you barbarism is not an American monopoly, anymore than philanthropy and peace making is to the rest of the world.

Originally posted by v4vendetta
reply to post by RRconservative

 

"RRconservative" can you please answer "bubble75"!!!

Why should I waste my time? I would have to point out why sympathy for terrorists is bad, the failure of communism, the audacity of the 9/11 truth movement. Then I would have to explain about the Al-Queda manuel that states prisoners should claim torture whether they have been or not. Then I would have to defend Christianity, while destoying Islam and it's pedophile prophet leader Mohammed, may God......, and explain why the United States of America is the best country on earth.

Then someone would want some kind of "link" to prove my points. But any link you provide will immediately be countered by another outrageous link, and my answer, however true it might be, will never be good enough for someone who hates America that much.

You know i cant remember them torturing Timothy McVeigh And he seems to meet your requirements . Well except he was white and all.

I hate that this is so short but...nothing is right in america anymore. Time and time again the government has proved thaey don't give a damn about human rights or anything else other than pushing their own agenda. And as alot of people probably already know most "terror suspects" are released without any charges ever having been filed against them(if they get released).


In ancient times it went-"Vanity, Vanity all is Vanity."
Now it goes like this-"Propaganda,Propaganda all is Propaganda."

Yes America is always bad and everyone else is always good.

Just ask Peter Berg about the kind and loving treatment he received. Or Daniel Pearl. These people were blessed to be held by enemies of the US. Not like those poor innocent people who were treated oh so bad by the US in comparison.

Originally posted by US Monitor
Yes America is always bad and everyone else is always good.

Just ask Peter Berg about the kind and loving treatment he received. Or Daniel Pearl. These people were blessed to be held by enemies of the US. Not like those poor innocent people who were treated oh so bad by the US in comparison.

Daniel Pearl? You're taking the worst possible example of how to treat a human being, and holding it up as the standard for most powerful nation state on the face of the earth. Can't you see what a terrible idea that is?

Sun Tzu said, "Build a golden bridge for your enemies to retreat upon".
Another wise man also once wrote, "The strength and glory of a nation can be judged by the way in which it treats its prisoners."

So, even if the "enemies" of the USA are mistreating USA prisoners, the USA is only stooping to their level by acting in kind.

To Nighthawk, who made the remark about signatories to the GC, very good job. You are entirely correct.

You missed the point of my post.

Even with the abuses the US has made against prisoners, it still pales in comparison to what we face when captured by the enemy. So you will just have to excuse me if I don't get teary eyed over the way the US treats those sub-human scum who perpetrate crimes that they do.