Blind and Ill Woman Tased by Ohio Police

You are much more eloquent than I am Sleuth What a lot of you folks fail to realize is that you almost NEVER have contact with the police when everything is peachy. You have contact with the police when things have gone to crap. If the only main contact you have with the police is during a bad time, the connotation is that "I'm having a bad time", police = bad=police. Police do incredible things every day, but the MSM seldom if ever reports that. They also usually don't tell you ALL of the facts or story.
This has a bad tendency to make you think most cops are donut eating moronic thugs, when just the opposite is the case. I have been assaulted, cursed, threatened, spit on and complained on for just doing my job. I NEVER was sent on a call because everything was going great for all concerned. Police use non-violent confrontation de-escalation every day, 99% of the time sucessfully, but there is always that 1% of the people you just can not reason with.

Originally posted by Sleuth
While in the lawful pursuit of their duties, she is obliged not to obstruct their investigation.

As long as the police ask no accusatory questions and she is not under arrest, she does not have to be Mirandized and, therefore, has no right to an attorney.

No one really expects a parent to rat out their kid.

As for giving up and trying another day, you are saying the police should be negligent in their duties. They had a warrant and with that warrant comes a responsibility, particularly once service of the warrant is in motion.

The police cannot just say, "Oh, I don't feel like serving this warrant anymore because this woman is crabby. Let's get coffee and come back later." That gives Mom, et al, time to regroup and plan and further obstruct justice. Junior can get the heck out of Dodge; evidence can be moved or destroyed.

They do. The problem is that citizens often do not understand the laws which they are subject to and, consequently, emotions run out ahead of logic on the track to resolution.

The police are responsible for enforcing the law. They spend a lot of time in classrooms with their noses stuck in statute books so that they interpret and apply it properly on the street. Then citizens, with a basic TV or high school understanding of law, second-guess their every move. It's not an easy job to be pummeled from all sides.

The public should educate itself about the laws that apply to it. Life would be a whole lot easier for everyone if it did. No one ever seems to think about that though.

While she may be obligized not to obstruct their investigation, she is not obligized to inform on her child, or speak to the police.


Obviously those particular officers did expect her to "rat out" her child.



And if she is not mirandized, she should not be treated as a criminal and have police officers attempt to force her to give them information that she is not willing to give them. She has a right not to speak to anyone that she chooses not to.



And we all know that being read your miranda rights doesn't mean squat in this country anymore. Especially when there are officers out there that will handcuff people take them into the station and process them, hold them for 12 hours, and not once tell them they are under arrest and NEVER read them their miranda rights, refuse them their phone call, their right to an attorney, etc, Oh wait a minute i forget they have no rights because they were not read their rights isn't that right, but i suppose you'll say that that's ok too. Fess up the cops have learned all the ways to get around the laws that they are supposed to uphold, but i do understand that it's not solely their fault, let's not forget about the judges that allow them to get away with it.



Reread my post and read what i actually said, not what you think i said. I didn't say try another day, i said try another WAY. Meaning try questioning his friends, nieghbors, other relatives concerning his whereabouts, since his mother obviously wasn't going to give them that information.



You're right they have a responsibility to carry out that warrant, however those responsibilities do NOT include harrassing & bullying innocent people who the warrant was not issued for.



The police need to understand that the ends does not always justfy the means. Unfortunately we now live in a society where a good amount of police officers seem to think that they ARE the law, but they aren't, they are simply supposed to uphold the law.



You're right often the citizens do not understand the laws that they are subject to, unfortunately there are officers that take advantage of that fact. Of course emotion is going to run ahead of logic when a mother knows that her child is in trouble, a fact that any good police officer should be aware of and prepared to deal with, which means diffusing the situatiuon without the use of excessive force.



Most people when confronted by a police officer, even in something as simple as a traffic stop are intimidated by the police which will tend to make them more emotional than logical. again something a good officer is aware of and doesn't take advantage of.



Maybe along with studying the laws the police should also study human nature and be given a little more instruction on how to peacefully diffuse a situation. I have seen plenty of good officers that can and do this. I have also seen plenty of bad officers that can't be bothered to take the time, and could care less, all they seem to care about is the power that comes with the badge, and how dare a citizen question them, or refuse to follow orders like a mindless zombie even if the orders were unjustified.



I have also seen citizens that are very much aware of their rights, but when they try to stand up for there rights a lot of officers can't handle that and they are the ones that escalate the situation.



As far as people educating themselves on the laws, you're right that should be thought about, by the goverment. Maybe people should be taught in high school what the laws in their community are, or hey even issue us a handbook to carry around with us that tells us the laws AND our rights. People are just thrown into society without a clue as to what most laws are, or what they mean.


I am aware that it is not an easy job getting pummelled from all sides, and i am aware that there are many good officers out there that do an outstanding job, and i have much respect for the good ones. You should also be aware that there are many bad officers out there that think that they are above the law, and that they are the law, and unfortunately they are becoming more and more frequent and it is the through the dealings with those officers that the citizens have developed such a distrust for the police force.



I also believe that we are all (police and citizens alike) just a pawn for a corrupt goverment game. What better way to take our country away from us than to put such a rift between the police force and the citizens that when the day comes we have such anomosity between us that the police will see the citizens trying to keep their country and hold on to our beloved constitution as the enemy, instead of seeing the real enemy that is trying to tear this country down and turn the constitution into just another piece of paper

reply to post by Sleuth


You neglected to answer my question. Is there a video that clearly shows that the woman was the one that initiated the violence ? Because if there isn't i don't see how the average citizen is supposed to believe that she did, being that all we seem to see lately is the use of excessive force by the police.

reply to post by Sleuth



What really makes me angry about the way some of these cops act today, is the fact that i raised my sons to have respect for police officers, just like i was raised to have respect for them. I used to hate when i'd see a parent tell a child you see that policeman if you don't behave yourself he's gonna arrest you & put you in jail, instilling fear of the police in a young child just to keep the child in line.



I always told my sons that that wasn't true, that police were here to protect us from bad people and wouldn't bother them unless they broke the law. However as my sons and younger brother grew older i found out that wasn't true.



My brother has been repeatly harrassed simply because of the way he looks, even as an adult walking home from work they would stop him and question him, search him, for what walking down the street ?


Me and my youngest went to pick my oldest up from work one night when he was 17, they both worked at a very well known business and my oldest had his work uniform on. As we crossed through a parking lot a group of gang bangers walked past us and then a patty wagon pulled up and i heard the officers asking someone where they were going. Naturally i assumed they were talking to the gang members, but it turns out they were talking to my sons.


Now they searched my sons not once but TWICE and the whole time i was asking them why they had stopped us and were searching my sons, only to be ignored. They repeatedly asked where my sons were coming from and where they were going, the whole time ignoring me. My sons kept telling them they we were going home, as we had just picked the oldest up from work, who had his uniform on. They gave them our address and the name of his job (even though it was clearly written on his uniform) but they still kept asking why we were walking that way, where were we going. But they never one time stopped or questioned the gang members who were now standing a few feet away watching.


Now you may think that that incident wasn't bad, but it was to us. We had done nothing wrong, just walking my son home from work. They had no reason to stop us let alone search my sons, but they did with no explanation what so ever.


Countless times i have seen my sons be harassed for doing nothing but sitting on the front porch with their friends after work, all of them made to get off the porch, hand over their ID"S, spread eagle on the squad, even the girls. Why because they shaved their head, had a gotee ? Since when did it become a criminal act to sit on your own front porch ?


I even had one of the cops tell me that he didn't want to see them sitting on the porch anymore. I told him that he couldn't tell me who i could have sitting on my property, as long as we weren't doing anything illegal or disturbing the nieghbors that we could do whatever we wanted on private property. He proceeded to tell me that his badge let him do whatever he wanted !


Nieghbors complained about him all over the beat, so they moved him to another beat, only to bring him back again the next year, this went on for three years.


You know if you get harrassed by cops enough, your attitude towards them will change, and that isn't the fault of the citizens, but the fault of the power hungry cops. And since the citizens don't seem to have any power to stop it, since you say you're a good police officer it's up to you and those like you to clean up your police force.

reply to post by chise61
Regarding your post about what happened to your sons, I can't explain what was going on nor will I speculate. I can't speak to the actions of all LEO's. I realize there are bad cops out there, but I'm not responsible for their behavior.

I do what I can to set a good example. If I don't like how something is handled, I say so. That is the best one person can do.

I'm not interested in a p*ssing match here. I'm neither defending nor condemning the people involved in this particular incident. I'm just try to explain the LE perspective.

If you don't like how your sons are handled, file a complaint. I've never had an issue with people filing a complaint on me. If you're a good officer, the truth is your best defense.

Ironically, the one time I thought I would get in trouble, for telling off a reporter, nothing ever came of it. Why? I did it as diplomatically as possible. I didn't want to, but I did.

On the other hand, I've had complaints filed on me for the most petty of grievances, things I never saw coming. Once, during a field interview, I held a hand to my forehead because I had a horrid headache, which was interpreted as disgust.

Sometimes, no matter what you do, no matter how professionally you perform your duties, there will still be someone who thinks you didn't.

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by Sleuth

 

You neglected to answer my question. Is there a video that clearly shows that the woman was the one that initiated the violence ? Because if there isn't i don't see how the average citizen is supposed to believe that she did, being that all we seem to see lately is the use of excessive force by the police.

I don't know if there is video.

The reason that all you see is "the use of excessive force" is because that's the only side of the coin the media generally shows you. Rarely do you see the positive moments in the press.

Here's one that I will never forget. Like many such LE encounters, it never made the paper or TV. A friend of mine responded to an accident scene involving a mother and daughter. The mother was dead on impact, the little girl was near death.

My friend tried to comfort her as they waited for EMS, knowing that she probably wasn't going to make it. She handed him her teddy bear and said, "Sir, will you take care of my bear for me until I'm better?" He said yes and she handed him the bear. Then she died.

That was about ten years ago. He still has that bear in his bedroom. He can't talk about it without becoming very emotional. All he will say about it now is that as long as he has a breath in his body, that bear has a home with him. He takes his promise to that little girl very seriously.

So now a few more people know about this man's private agony over one incident. These are the stories you almost never read about in the newspaper or hear about on TV. They're not sensational. They don't generate the kind of public discourse that negative reporting creates. They don't sell.

As some know I'm not very tolerant of the cops misusing their power, but I also know level-headed informative posting when I see it.

Sleuth is a very good source of info and is quite empathetic to these issues.

We'd do well to read the posts and understand what Sleuth is saying.

There's some good info there.

Starred and seconded, especially the last post. Good to have people like Sleuth on ATS.

Good post Sleuth.

In my line of work I deal directly with Dallas police on a daily basis. I know a lot of them on a friend level. I can honestly say they're good normal guys.

It almost makes me laugh when I see posts that pretty much lump the police force in with the PTB as if they're all part of the same malevolent plans for global domination. They're normal people with a job to do. You're sitting behind a computer whining while they're out there putting up with crap you can't even imagine. Who do you think put all the murderers, theives, rapists, child molestors, etc. in jail? Common sense stuff right?

And before anyone comes up with the "So you think they're justified in tasing a blind woman then?" crap, the answer is no. I understand situations happen where police do bad things. That happens in all lines of work. But you gotta look at the big picture. Once again, I see so many of you badmouthing the MSM, until they report something that furthers your cause. You can't have it both ways.

And you don't like police apologists? I don't like criminal apologists.


[edit on 22-7-2008 by PaceIsTheTrick]

I don't condone this cops behaviour and I think when cops take aggresive action like this they should be reviewed but I am beginning to think that this once strong nation is becoming full of whiny babies that complain way too much, to blow everything up as big and stinky as possible.

I'm not trying to make light of this incident but I say this because when compared to many many countries, we are so very lucky. I live on the border with Mexico, so I hear some real nasty horror stories about corrupt police, I'm talking bribery, kidnapping, murder, drug trafficing. So some cops have gotten tazer happy and now we got the simpletons wishing death upon our cops. We have been sissyfied.

reply to post by Sleuth


As i've stated more than once I know that there are good cops out there, but i believe that the good cops should report the bad ones.


As far as reporting the harrassment i believe that i've already stated that many people reported it and all they did was move him only to bring him back over & over again. Citizens reporting misconduct of officers does no good, they don't believe us, it's not gonna work unless good officers do it also.


And no the reason that i think there is excessive force is not solely because of what the media puts out there. It's because of the tazers, i happen to believe that using a tazer is excessive force. They can be very dangerous.


I know that there are good officers that do good things that go unnoticed and unreported. I believe that the higher ups in the police force should work with the media, try to establish a better relationship with them and see if something can be worked out to promote the media to report on not only the bad cops, but also the good work that good officers do.


I'm not trying to have a p*****g match with you either, i just don't believe that a police officer's word is gold, as there are bad cops out there that can't be trusted.

The point I was trying to make is that it's important to understand the law and understand the kind of powers the law -does- give a law enforcement officer.

That way you don't end up doing things that will clearly get you in trouble during an encounter.

It's also important to understand the LEO's mindset. You don't want to make him fear for his safety because if you go there he will mess you up. I don't blame a LEO in this regard - I know they have a dangerous job.

There's a time for 'resisting' and a time for 'protesting' and few of these times are during an encounter.

In addition, I think LEOs should clearly know the law and not step too far outside that. They should imagine that their actions are being filmed and broadcast up on an (imaginary) IMAX screen for all the world to see and not be doing things they clearly know they should not.

Now many LEOs, even good ones will say that lying, bluffing and distorting are important tools and it's how they make many arrests.

BUT they are tools for dealing with PREDATORS not tools for dealing with the normal lawful CITIZEN.

This is where, imo, the BIG problem comes up.

The LEO stops a law abiding citizen who never had a ticket and uses techniques that he learns for dealing with hardened criminals and dangerous felons and somehow begins to think this is OK.

Thus people get stopped, dragged out of their cars and thrown to the ground and tazed then he realizes that this car, which fits the description of the car that just did a bank robbery is not the criminal. So he jumps in his car, leaving a mess at the roadside, and speeds off on his higher purpose, to put this predator in jail, protecting society. But he forgets he just acted like a predator himself, and damaged society and made a mockery of his credo.

He gets a call that a dangerous drug user is at an address and he calls in SWAT and they bust down the door and shoot and taze the occupant, only to discover the house is the one across the street, or on the other side of town. They leave the law-abiding homeowner with a door smashed open, people bleeding and dying who never did a bad deed in their lives and BY LAW the cops have no obligation to make it right, to apologize or to compensate these nice folks whom they just screwed by MISTAKE. Here again the LEO became the predator he claims to hate. LEOs need to start asking themselves this question frequently. "Am I being a predator here and if so can I stop it and can I make things right". LEOs don't be afraid to say you made a mistake and have some compassion and fix the mistakes and make things right and learn a lesson. Not all street lessons are about perps. Some street lessons are about being a force for the good and a citizen advocate and protector. (duh).

A LEO gets mad due to something, maybe a lawyer didn't let him use his Predator techniques on the lawyer's client, a citizen, so the next 19 year old that he pulls over gets the full treatment due to a LEO's temper tantrum. Fortunately, the 19 yo has a video feed in his car and the whole thing is caught on tape and the LEO, who isn't such a bad cop, loses his job and ends up a bitter alcoholic and blames society.

The point is, people need to be informed, LEOS need to stop using the wrong stuff on the wrong people and everyone needs to have a little empathy. The LEO's superiors should give them ample training and empower them and not crap on the LEO either. Stuff runs downhill.

Anyway, Sleuth gives good information on what people need to know about the LEO]s actions and this is always a good thing to know. That way you're not out there fighting and resisting and being a dumbazz then moaning when you get tazed.

Likewise, if LEOs had more training and psychological help and support from their superiors this would also help them do a difficult job properly and more professionally.

I think the average LEO -wants- to be a professional, WANTS to know the law and wants to follow correct procedure. But for a variety of reasons which we should respect and of which we citizens should be aware, there is some risk and things can go awry.

2 cents.








[edit on 23-7-2008 by Badge01]

While I agree that the police severely overstepped their bounds and violated this woman, at least she lived.

This man was not so lucky.

Now I don't want this to sound like I'm saying these deaths are their own fault because I'm not, but the lesson here is to not fight or resist with the police. Honestly, what do you expect to happen?

You can sit there and try to say that cops just tase people for not doing anything, but I highly doubt that's the case. At least 99% of the time it's not anyway.

Maybe if some people would allow common sense to prevail over their "screw authority" mentality then they wouldn't get tased and run the risk of being killed.

I'm not arguing the safety of tasers, I'm arguing the stupidity of the people that get tased.

Originally posted by Badge01

Now many LEOs, even good ones will say that lying, bluffing and distorting are important tools and it's how they make many arrests.

BUT they are tools for dealing with PREDATORS not tools for dealing with the normal lawful CITIZEN.

This is where, imo, the BIG problem comes up.

The LEO stops a law abiding citizen who never had a ticket and uses techniques that he learns for dealing with hardened criminals and dangerous felons and somehow begins to think this is OK.

Thus people get stopped, dragged out of their cars and thrown to the ground and tazed then he realizes that this car, which fits the description of the car that just did a bank robbery is not the criminal. So he jumps in his car, leaving a mess at the roadside, and speeds off on his higher purpose, to put this predator in jail, protecting society. But he forgets he just acted like a predator himself, and damaged society and made a mockery of his credo.

He gets a call that a dangerous drug user is at an address and he calls in SWAT and they bust down the door and shoot and taze the occupant, only to discover the house is the one across the street, or on the other side of town. They leave the law-abiding homeowner with a door smashed open, people bleeding and dying who never did a bad deed in their lives and BY LAW the cops have no obligation to make it right, to apologize or to compensate these nice folks whom they just screwed by MISTAKE. Here again the LEO became the predator he claims to hate. LEOs need to start asking themselves this question frequently. "Am I being a predator here and if so can I stop it and can I make things right". LEOs don't be afraid to say you made a mistake and have some compassion and fix the mistakes and make things right and learn a lesson. Not all street lessons are about perps. Some street lessons are about being a force for the good and a citizen advocate and protector. (duh).

Really good post, i gave it a star. This is exactly what i was talking about, you however said it much better !!!


I just want the police to realize that not everyone that they encounter is a criminal, or someone that wishes them harm, and treat us appropriately. If i'm pulled over because i was distracted and missed a stop sign, i know i'm going to be issued a ticket and have no problem with that. But i don't want to be yelled at, bullied, and treated like a hard core criminal because i made a mistake, there's no need for 4 squad cars to show up to issue me one ticket.


I think it should be a mandatory policy that every officer should have at least two sessions a month with a psychologist, they see and deal with a lot of crap and need to be able to talk about it without being ridiculed and mandatory counceling would allow that.


Again good post

Why didn't they just appologise and leave after they realised they had the wrong place.
And if a blind old woman gets angry because of the mistake and gets combative, then tuck tail between legs and leave quickly.
Strange, I wonder what was going through their heads..?

reply to post by chise61


Try to find just ONE department that is prepared to pay for the shrink, as well as the Officers time. I'm not saying some cops wouldn't benefit from it, but departments generally won't pay for such things. I worked in a major city department, and while I won't say cops don't have a bad day now and then, It is my experience that most Policemen(and women) are pretty businesslike. We DO get awfully tired of being societies Daddy, but that's the job. Most folks look at cops through a lens of: the cops were mean or rude to me, so must be most cops are like that. If 1,000,000 police /citizen interactions don't make the news, and 5 or 6 do, well " Obviously the cops are out of control".

reply to post by oldcop911



The city should have to pay for it, just like if you work for a company that has madatory random drug testing the company pays for it. Buy the way does anybody know if the police are tested for drugs ?


Every police officer would benefit from it. Police see a lot of crap day in & day out and it has to effect them. They sometimes have to deal with things that some people couldn't even imagine. Ther's a big difference between a citizen reading about a small child that was raped and murdered and an officer being on the scene and actually seeing it. There's no way that something like that doesn't effect them, and they should all be given time in counseling as part of the job.

reply to post by chise61

I agree that the city should pay for it, and they do provide you the option of going to a city shrink on an "off-duty" basis unless you are involved in a shooting (in which it is on-duty mandantory). Cops tend to develop a VERY hard exterior from what theyt are exposed to. If they don't, they don't survive. I noticed when I was dealing with dead bodies, that part of my mind would tell me that what I was looking at was ANYTHING other than what it actually was ie: a doll, a manikin(spel?), a bundle of rags.. Police develop a very sick type of humor over it all, but if you don't learn to laugh about it (at least in Private) then you Will be crying about it.
Police are tested for drugs on a random basis(at least in the Dept. I retired from). I might go for a couple of years with no test, then get tested 3 times in 6 months.
The biggest point that I wanted to make though was that even though some cases make the news, the very vast majority of Police/citizen interactions are Not out of the ordinary.
I have to tell you though, if for whatever reason a 300 Lb woman was coming at me, or swung at me, I would have tazed her before I put my hands on her. Not only does it save me from getting hurt, but it is pretty safe for her. The vast majority of tazer deployments have no lasting physical effects. Nothing is perfect. I guarntee that if the cops had really had to grapple with this woman, the headline would have been, "Police beat up helpless, sick woman".

reply to post by oldcop911


Providing the option of psychogical care off the clock is not good enough. It should on the clock and mandatory, it would help to avoid ridicule of the officers that seek it and maybe help officers that normally wouldn't. I as a tax payer would not have a problem with officers being paid for a couple hours a month with a psychologist as i feel it would benefit everyone.


I understand and agree with what you said about if they had been pysical with the woman it would have been reported as them beating her up. I also understand that nobody is going to just stand there and let somebody attack them without defending themselves, i know i wouldn't do it no matter what there size. I just don't believe that tazers should be in use as in some cases they can be deadly. I'm sure the officers in question had no intentions on killing this woman, or she'd be dead, but what if she had a heart or other condition and she would have been killed ? Wouldn't spraying her with mace have enabled them to get the situation under control ?


My problem is with the use of tazers, i just don't believe that they should be used in any circumstances. If they feel the need to continue their use than they should be used with the same caution as a firearm, as in some cases they can be just as deadly. Being that you're retired from the force i'm guessing that you were in the force for quite a few years before they issued tazers, and you seem to have been able to do your job without using them.

reply to post by chise61

Pre-Tazer, there were a lot more suspects injured being arrested. Tazers are deployed to avoid that wrestling match that occurs when I have to arrest you, and you don't want to be arrested. Most cops don't have Steven Segal's fighting skills, and the result is you and the perp getting injured (minor most of the time). If I was crook, I would much rather get tazed, than get my nose broken when I got slammed (deservedly) to the ground when a Police Officer had to fight me to get me into custody. Regardless of what you may have read or heard, tasers are not used at the drop of a hat, and an investigation always occured when one was used in my Dept.

In addition, when you shoot a taser, a chip records the date/time/duration of deployment, and identifying little pieces of plastic are released(which have to be collected and tagged into evidence).

Cops mostly do not WANT to have to put their hands on people, because someone almost always gets hurt. Sometimes the crook, sometimes the cop, sometimes both. I can say, at least in my experience, the there are fewer injuries with the taser, that pre-taser.