You are much more eloquent than I am Sleuth What a lot of you folks fail to realize is that you almost NEVER have contact with the police when everything is peachy. You have contact with the police when things have gone to crap. If the only main contact you have with the police is during a bad time, the connotation is that "I'm having a bad time", police = bad=police. Police do incredible things every day, but the MSM seldom if ever reports that. They also usually don't tell you ALL of the facts or story.
This has a bad tendency to make you think most cops are donut eating moronic thugs, when just the opposite is the case. I have been assaulted, cursed, threatened, spit on and complained on for just doing my job. I NEVER was sent on a call because everything was going great for all concerned. Police use non-violent confrontation de-escalation every day, 99% of the time sucessfully, but there is always that 1% of the people you just can not reason with.

Originally posted by Sleuth
While in the lawful pursuit of their duties, she is obliged not to obstruct their investigation.

As long as the police ask no accusatory questions and she is not under arrest, she does not have to be Mirandized and, therefore, has no right to an attorney.

No one really expects a parent to rat out their kid.

As for giving up and trying another day, you are saying the police should be negligent in their duties. They had a warrant and with that warrant comes a responsibility, particularly once service of the warrant is in motion.

The police cannot just say, "Oh, I don't feel like serving this warrant anymore because this woman is crabby. Let's get coffee and come back later." That gives Mom, et al, time to regroup and plan and further obstruct justice. Junior can get the heck out of Dodge; evidence can be moved or destroyed.

They do. The problem is that citizens often do not understand the laws which they are subject to and, consequently, emotions run out ahead of logic on the track to resolution.

The police are responsible for enforcing the law. They spend a lot of time in classrooms with their noses stuck in statute books so that they interpret and apply it properly on the street. Then citizens, with a basic TV or high school understanding of law, second-guess their every move. It's not an easy job to be pummeled from all sides.

The public should educate itself about the laws that apply to it. Life would be a whole lot easier for everyone if it did. No one ever seems to think about that though.

While she may be obligized not to obstruct their investigation, she is not obligized to inform on her child, or speak to the police.


Obviously those particular officers did expect her to "rat out" her child.



And if she is not mirandized, she should not be treated as a criminal and have police officers attempt to force her to give them information that she is not willing to give them. She has a right not to speak to anyone that she chooses not to.



And we all know that being read your miranda rights doesn't mean squat in this country anymore. Especially when there are officers out there that will handcuff people take them into the station and process them, hold them for 12 hours, and not once tell them they are under arrest and NEVER read them their miranda rights, refuse them their phone call, their right to an attorney, etc, Oh wait a minute i forget they have no rights because they were not read their rights isn't that right, but i suppose you'll say that that's ok too. Fess up the cops have learned all the ways to get around the laws that they are supposed to uphold, but i do understand that it's not solely their fault, let's not forget about the judges that allow them to get away with it.



Reread my post and read what i actually said, not what you think i said. I didn't say try another day, i said try another WAY. Meaning try questioning his friends, nieghbors, other relatives concerning his whereabouts, since his mother obviously wasn't going to give them that information.



You're right they have a responsibility to carry out that warrant, however those responsibilities do NOT include harrassing & bullying innocent people who the warrant was not issued for.



The police need to understand that the ends does not always justfy the means. Unfortunately we now live in a society where a good amount of police officers seem to think that they ARE the law, but they aren't, they are simply supposed to uphold the law.



You're right often the citizens do not understand the laws that they are subject to, unfortunately there are officers that take advantage of that fact. Of course emotion is going to run ahead of logic when a mother knows that her child is in trouble, a fact that any good police officer should be aware of and prepared to deal with, which means diffusing the situatiuon without the use of excessive force.



Most people when confronted by a police officer, even in something as simple as a traffic stop are intimidated by the police which will tend to make them more emotional than logical. again something a good officer is aware of and doesn't take advantage of.



Maybe along with studying the laws the police should also study human nature and be given a little more instruction on how to peacefully diffuse a situation. I have seen plenty of good officers that can and do this. I have also seen plenty of bad officers that can't be bothered to take the time, and could care less, all they seem to care about is the power that comes with the badge, and how dare a citizen question them, or refuse to follow orders like a mindless zombie even if the orders were unjustified.



I have also seen citizens that are very much aware of their rights, but when they try to stand up for there rights a lot of officers can't handle that and they are the ones that escalate the situation.



As far as people educating themselves on the laws, you're right that should be thought about, by the goverment. Maybe people should be taught in high school what the laws in their community are, or hey even issue us a handbook to carry around with us that tells us the laws AND our rights. People are just thrown into society without a clue as to what most laws are, or what they mean.


I am aware that it is not an easy job getting pummelled from all sides, and i am aware that there are many good officers out there that do an outstanding job, and i have much respect for the good ones. You should also be aware that there are many bad officers out there that think that they are above the law, and that they are the law, and unfortunately they are becoming more and more frequent and it is the through the dealings with those officers that the citizens have developed such a distrust for the police force.



I also believe that we are all (police and citizens alike) just a pawn for a corrupt goverment game. What better way to take our country away from us than to put such a rift between the police force and the citizens that when the day comes we have such anomosity between us that the police will see the citizens trying to keep their country and hold on to our beloved constitution as the enemy, instead of seeing the real enemy that is trying to tear this country down and turn the constitution into just another piece of paper

As some know I'm not very tolerant of the cops misusing their power, but I also know level-headed informative posting when I see it.

Sleuth is a very good source of info and is quite empathetic to these issues.

We'd do well to read the posts and understand what Sleuth is saying.

There's some good info there.

Starred and seconded, especially the last post. Good to have people like Sleuth on ATS.

Good post Sleuth.

In my line of work I deal directly with Dallas police on a daily basis. I know a lot of them on a friend level. I can honestly say they're good normal guys.

It almost makes me laugh when I see posts that pretty much lump the police force in with the PTB as if they're all part of the same malevolent plans for global domination. They're normal people with a job to do. You're sitting behind a computer whining while they're out there putting up with crap you can't even imagine. Who do you think put all the murderers, theives, rapists, child molestors, etc. in jail? Common sense stuff right?

And before anyone comes up with the "So you think they're justified in tasing a blind woman then?" crap, the answer is no. I understand situations happen where police do bad things. That happens in all lines of work. But you gotta look at the big picture. Once again, I see so many of you badmouthing the MSM, until they report something that furthers your cause. You can't have it both ways.

And you don't like police apologists? I don't like criminal apologists.


[edit on 22-7-2008 by PaceIsTheTrick]

I don't condone this cops behaviour and I think when cops take aggresive action like this they should be reviewed but I am beginning to think that this once strong nation is becoming full of whiny babies that complain way too much, to blow everything up as big and stinky as possible.

I'm not trying to make light of this incident but I say this because when compared to many many countries, we are so very lucky. I live on the border with Mexico, so I hear some real nasty horror stories about corrupt police, I'm talking bribery, kidnapping, murder, drug trafficing. So some cops have gotten tazer happy and now we got the simpletons wishing death upon our cops. We have been sissyfied.

The point I was trying to make is that it's important to understand the law and understand the kind of powers the law -does- give a law enforcement officer.

That way you don't end up doing things that will clearly get you in trouble during an encounter.

It's also important to understand the LEO's mindset. You don't want to make him fear for his safety because if you go there he will mess you up. I don't blame a LEO in this regard - I know they have a dangerous job.

There's a time for 'resisting' and a time for 'protesting' and few of these times are during an encounter.

In addition, I think LEOs should clearly know the law and not step too far outside that. They should imagine that their actions are being filmed and broadcast up on an (imaginary) IMAX screen for all the world to see and not be doing things they clearly know they should not.

Now many LEOs, even good ones will say that lying, bluffing and distorting are important tools and it's how they make many arrests.

BUT they are tools for dealing with PREDATORS not tools for dealing with the normal lawful CITIZEN.

This is where, imo, the BIG problem comes up.

The LEO stops a law abiding citizen who never had a ticket and uses techniques that he learns for dealing with hardened criminals and dangerous felons and somehow begins to think this is OK.

Thus people get stopped, dragged out of their cars and thrown to the ground and tazed then he realizes that this car, which fits the description of the car that just did a bank robbery is not the criminal. So he jumps in his car, leaving a mess at the roadside, and speeds off on his higher purpose, to put this predator in jail, protecting society. But he forgets he just acted like a predator himself, and damaged society and made a mockery of his credo.

He gets a call that a dangerous drug user is at an address and he calls in SWAT and they bust down the door and shoot and taze the occupant, only to discover the house is the one across the street, or on the other side of town. They leave the law-abiding homeowner with a door smashed open, people bleeding and dying who never did a bad deed in their lives and BY LAW the cops have no obligation to make it right, to apologize or to compensate these nice folks whom they just screwed by MISTAKE. Here again the LEO became the predator he claims to hate. LEOs need to start asking themselves this question frequently. "Am I being a predator here and if so can I stop it and can I make things right". LEOs don't be afraid to say you made a mistake and have some compassion and fix the mistakes and make things right and learn a lesson. Not all street lessons are about perps. Some street lessons are about being a force for the good and a citizen advocate and protector. (duh).

A LEO gets mad due to something, maybe a lawyer didn't let him use his Predator techniques on the lawyer's client, a citizen, so the next 19 year old that he pulls over gets the full treatment due to a LEO's temper tantrum. Fortunately, the 19 yo has a video feed in his car and the whole thing is caught on tape and the LEO, who isn't such a bad cop, loses his job and ends up a bitter alcoholic and blames society.

The point is, people need to be informed, LEOS need to stop using the wrong stuff on the wrong people and everyone needs to have a little empathy. The LEO's superiors should give them ample training and empower them and not crap on the LEO either. Stuff runs downhill.

Anyway, Sleuth gives good information on what people need to know about the LEO]s actions and this is always a good thing to know. That way you're not out there fighting and resisting and being a dumbazz then moaning when you get tazed.

Likewise, if LEOs had more training and psychological help and support from their superiors this would also help them do a difficult job properly and more professionally.

I think the average LEO -wants- to be a professional, WANTS to know the law and wants to follow correct procedure. But for a variety of reasons which we should respect and of which we citizens should be aware, there is some risk and things can go awry.

2 cents.








[edit on 23-7-2008 by Badge01]

Now I don't want this to sound like I'm saying these deaths are their own fault because I'm not, but the lesson here is to not fight or resist with the police. Honestly, what do you expect to happen?

You can sit there and try to say that cops just tase people for not doing anything, but I highly doubt that's the case. At least 99% of the time it's not anyway.

Maybe if some people would allow common sense to prevail over their "screw authority" mentality then they wouldn't get tased and run the risk of being killed.

I'm not arguing the safety of tasers, I'm arguing the stupidity of the people that get tased.

Originally posted by Badge01

Now many LEOs, even good ones will say that lying, bluffing and distorting are important tools and it's how they make many arrests.

BUT they are tools for dealing with PREDATORS not tools for dealing with the normal lawful CITIZEN.

This is where, imo, the BIG problem comes up.

The LEO stops a law abiding citizen who never had a ticket and uses techniques that he learns for dealing with hardened criminals and dangerous felons and somehow begins to think this is OK.

Thus people get stopped, dragged out of their cars and thrown to the ground and tazed then he realizes that this car, which fits the description of the car that just did a bank robbery is not the criminal. So he jumps in his car, leaving a mess at the roadside, and speeds off on his higher purpose, to put this predator in jail, protecting society. But he forgets he just acted like a predator himself, and damaged society and made a mockery of his credo.

He gets a call that a dangerous drug user is at an address and he calls in SWAT and they bust down the door and shoot and taze the occupant, only to discover the house is the one across the street, or on the other side of town. They leave the law-abiding homeowner with a door smashed open, people bleeding and dying who never did a bad deed in their lives and BY LAW the cops have no obligation to make it right, to apologize or to compensate these nice folks whom they just screwed by MISTAKE. Here again the LEO became the predator he claims to hate. LEOs need to start asking themselves this question frequently. "Am I being a predator here and if so can I stop it and can I make things right". LEOs don't be afraid to say you made a mistake and have some compassion and fix the mistakes and make things right and learn a lesson. Not all street lessons are about perps. Some street lessons are about being a force for the good and a citizen advocate and protector. (duh).

Really good post, i gave it a star. This is exactly what i was talking about, you however said it much better !!!


I just want the police to realize that not everyone that they encounter is a criminal, or someone that wishes them harm, and treat us appropriately. If i'm pulled over because i was distracted and missed a stop sign, i know i'm going to be issued a ticket and have no problem with that. But i don't want to be yelled at, bullied, and treated like a hard core criminal because i made a mistake, there's no need for 4 squad cars to show up to issue me one ticket.


I think it should be a mandatory policy that every officer should have at least two sessions a month with a psychologist, they see and deal with a lot of crap and need to be able to talk about it without being ridiculed and mandatory counceling would allow that.


Again good post

Why didn't they just appologise and leave after they realised they had the wrong place.
And if a blind old woman gets angry because of the mistake and gets combative, then tuck tail between legs and leave quickly.
Strange, I wonder what was going through their heads..?