Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride.

Do you really think you enjoy:

Lust more than love?

Gluttony more than variety?

Greed more than generosity?

Sloth more than satisfaction?

Wrath more than compassion?

Envy more than being-happy-for-someone?

Pride more than confidence?

I find it very hard to believe. I think you need to look a little deeper inside yourself. And no, I'm not talking about finding god. I'm an atheist.

The God that we read about and grew up with is a figment of Mankind's inventions. The God that created everything is not the entity that your read about in the books. I highly doubt somebody with such powers would fail in the same ways as man. An all-powerful being needing praise? Needing worship? Or you're done for?

How many people do good and not bad because they are afraid of consequence? Because they are afraid of what will happen? This is the way that the God in religions work? Even the notion of a god and where they stand in the heirarchy are all man-made concepts. Worship, damnation, heaven, hell... all man-made.

With that said, I don't know anything so it's just my opinion

And I cannot deny the good that religion has done in many, many lives when compared to how their lives would have been without it.

Is this a serious thread, or more a series of rants? If it's a serious thread, I don't mind engaging it, as I consider myself something of a seasoned spiritual practitioner and could offer answers to at least basic issues. But you would need to systematically break your argument down into a series of questions one at a time, and I can't guarantee you'll like the answers I have.

Ok, well i am in no way trying to impose my beliefs on anyone, but it seems to me that many have a skewed idea about God and Religion.

God is Love. God is Truth. God is Reason.

Religion itself is very flawed. So flawed to the point that people will kill, pillage, massacre, and work every sort of evil ALL in the name of serving God. That is not God's religion. that is Man's religion, their view of God. But it is not so. God is such pure love that here on earth we are allowed to have the luxuries of existance, such as free will.

And all because of that Free Will we humans can work such atrocities as murder, rape, annihilation of races and species. and yes, as Evil is all that is, we have no idea what life would be like without God. Life without God would be hell. Hell is, as the OP states, "The Complete Absence of God."

The Evil in this world is only as much as God allows it. As horrible as that sounds, it's true. God allows evil so that we can learn. God allows evil so that if we keep true to him, if we keep true to love, then all of this life will mean something after it. Remember that God is PURE LOVE. Without love in the world, what would it be? HELL.

If you know love, you know God. Would you want to be in a state of being COMPLETELY devoid of love, only never being able to escape it? Living for an eternity without feeling any love at all? Would you want that? Do you think you could handle it? You, who declare it would be better to live in hell than in heaven?? What kind of nonsensical talk is that?

Everyone believes that to believe in God, you have to do this, you have to do that, blah blah blah, go to church and get scared to salvation, or blah blahblah, if you're not this religion then you're going to hell, it's a load of B.S. God loves you no matter who you are, no matter what you do. He even sent Jesus Christ into the world to tell everyone that God is love, that you can be the worst sinner and still go to heaven.

If you LOVE love, then you love God. If you love the feeling of being happy, of being loved by anyone in general, if you enjoy the GOOD things in life, then you know the love of God. Then imagine, if our finite human minds can, that all of that is taken away. No love. NO LOVE of any way, shape, form at all in existance. Ever. For Eternity.

That, fellow ATS'ers, is Hell.

Do you want to spend eternity there? I know I don't.




Praise be to God in Heaven!

reply to post by CallMeMaury

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Good one.
Not to be a one liner, keep in mind that it is probably not true.
If you suddenly find yourslf in a place that you think must be Hell, do not believe it.
Realize it could not be true.
But also realize you can not get out on your own.
Do not ask for help from anyone you might find there.
Only the Invisible One can get you out.
Just thought I would throw that out because it happened to me and I would hate to think that any of you would decide to stay there.
Not a good idea, in my opinion.

If there truly is a heaven and a hell, you are guessing wildly by thinking you will be lavished with the "good life" if in hell. If you are at all religious, I'd not gamble on an eternity of a miserable existance.

You may be thinking of it in dogmatic and physical terms.

All of those 'sins' are hedonistic. You eat, or rest or covet because you have a physical body.

If you think in terms of chemistry and hormones and only a mind and not a physical body, and don't think in terms of religion or dogma, then you have the origin of 'God' and heaven.

Heaven or nirvana would be an endless feeling of bliss, in which anything else would be a bummer, even sex, eating, or any bodily function.

You wouldn't want to turn away from the 'face of God', which would be a combination of endorphins and serotonin and dopamine, times 1000. (or more). You'd never get bored, you'd never think a thought, you'd only be experience and a never ending satori.

This is how I experienced 'God' in a dream. It was me singing a perfect song, experiencing an endless nirvana, and flying through orange-amber ever-changing clouds. It was great.

Without the limits of a body, you don't have a sense of time (thus no boredom) and you don't need to think a variety of semi-stimulating thoughts. Sex is irrelevant, etc.

Now in comparison, Hell would be the absence of this nirvana. Even if you were just turned away from the 'face of God'/Satori/Nirvana, you'd still be in Hell by comparison, because then you'd be remembering physical needs, boredom, impatience, even the normal physical pleasures would be unpleasant by comparison.

Does that make sense?

I think the Ancients, or the old religious leaders had a good 'trip' and a bad 'trip', and thus, chemically, designated one Heaven and one Hell. IOW, it was an experience, not a 'place'.

It's been assigned a physical place and virtues and vices because it strayed way from the original transcendent experience, and people forgot about that chemical or dream state.

So, don't think in terms of the physical body and I think the paradox will be less of a puzzle.

HTH.


[edit on 17-7-2008 by Badge01]

that's an interesting way of putting it. how would you know if someone was scared or not? i bet i've been through more scary stuff than you'll probably ever see in your life. and where's the filthy part come from? are you challenging me kid? i have knees and know how to use them. you want some special attention from the angels?

reply to post by pause4thought

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You'd be surprised at the sheer creative power of the human brain when it is unduly stressed. When your subconscious takes control, you can begin to see and hear all manner of things...

You ever have a dream that was directly related to something you had done or experienced or thought of the day preceding it? Or perhaps your dreams are haunted by something that worries you?

You see where I'm going with this?

reply to post by EverythingYouDespise

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in The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis depicts hell as a place not so dissimilar to earth. The people in hell actually think they're still alive. Most of them have the opportunity to ascend to heaven; but they don't because they refuse to acknowledge its existence. If you've seen the movie "What dreams may come". The house that the woman is in at the end of the movie reminds me of this; but that's a lot worse than Lewis envisions it.


[edit on 7/17/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by pause4thought

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If anyone here knows what is Conscience he/she does not need some book who tells what is sin and what isn't. Are we really dumbed down so much that we can not differ good from evil? If somebody has not got a CONSCIENCE and is being told what is sin and then fear is planted in him so he does not do certain things - it would mean that the only reason person is not committing a SIN is because they are afraid of punishment. So here is my point:

How come you can simultaneously Love GOD and Fear GOD?

Answer me!

Ask a starving child in a third world country if they believe in Heaven or Hell. The answer will come in the form of their question for you: "Can you feed me?"

OK OK!

Which to me; seems to imply that everyone should know what the difference is between right and wrong. I agree.


There are very few people on this earth, (if any at all) that do not have some form of a conscience.


I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. You’ll need to elucidate.


I loved my grandfather, but also feared him. It’s possible.

Maybe this world is Hell already, maybe we have all be judged and found unworthy.

I used to have faith that good deeds on this earth would be rewarded at some point, not that that was the reason I did good deeds, I did them because I thought this is the way I want other people to treat me.

But as my life goes on and on, I have come to think that nothing matters, this world sucks. Evil people seem to be rewarded by wealth and power, good at heart people seem to get the crap kicked out of them.

We are all selfish at heart, we all search for something to make us happy that could be the good book, it could be watching your child play in the park, it could be the drug of your choice.

But this world seems to be more about pain and suffering than about the good things. I am sure Hell is more a state of mind (or state of soul) but can it be much worse than this ?

Maybe I just want more in my life, maybe I am searching for something some meaning something to hold on too.

reply to post by JPhish

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Think about it with open hart (perhaps you have NOT experienced love - then it would be explainable why you argue with me) this an extraordinary claim - you can Love and Fear simultaneously.

If there is a smallest bit of Fear in you hart Love is replaced with admiration, respect...

How LOVE works is - it is demanding equality - both individuals are seeing each other at a same level of senses - love can not be one way (just a side note - that is what I call blind-foolness or selfish love). Love simply does not exist when someone sees him/herself higher or lower then the other individual/party.

Fear brings in this disbalance in Love relationships and replaces/pushes love out leaving all the rest but love - faith, respect, amazement, obedience and so on.

Love and Fear can not coexist.

Your example with grandfather is a good example:

- you possibly could not have same level relationships because he saw/sees you through feelings of proud, admiration and being strict with you when you do something foolish (thats why you feared him) - his "love" (it is not love obviously, but people call it love regardless) is looking down on you
- your grandfather could not have same level relationships with you because you saw him through feelings of respect, amazement, trust and fear (if you do something "wrong"). You are/were looking up on him.

Love can be called LOVE only when unforced equality is observable and felt by both(all) parties.

Regards


[edit on 17-7-2008 by FIFIGI]

For me heaven is a place where all the "good" spirits and people go. A place of harmony, love and peace.
Hell is where all the sinners and evildoers go. Where chaos, pain and anarchy reign. Evil spirits do not care for each other, if you go there you will never rest.

It now depends on you, where do you want to go in the afterlife?

reply to post by TheOracle

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Hell is nothing more but inability to LOVE truly - no fears, no admirations, no amazements, NO FAITH (that is blindness!!), no obedience, no trust or belief...

This is not to say that the listed feelings and emotions are not to be experienced - it is that LOVE comes first and belief, trust, admirations, amazements....will be and are experienced as "side effects".