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An Atlantean puzzle: No inhabitants of the Azores

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posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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In many of the presentation made for the existence of Atlantis a common site argued for are the Azores.



Yet the Azores have no confirmed inhabitents until the Portuguese showed up in the 15th century?




posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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I think the current thinking is if there was an Atlantis, it was most likely Minoan or Crete. There was a catastrophic volcanic eruption over 3500 years ago in that area. The societies they have found were very sophisticated and quite wealthy. This could be the Atlantis referred to by the ancients, although he added a lot of stuff to his description. He was just wrong about its location.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:50 AM
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Hmm... you'd think that someone would have fled to the nearest island. My uneducated opinion is that Atlantis is probably the Olmec Civilization of Mexico. They are beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and were wiped out mysteriously...

Nah. Crete sounds better.

[edit on 2008.7.16 by cannonfodder]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Did the Catalan's discover it first, while searching for whales and fish?



A Medici map of 1351 contained seven islands off the Portuguese
coast which were arranged in groups of three. There was the
southern group or the Goat Islands (Cabreras); there was the middle
group or the Wind or Dove Islands (De Ventura Sive de Columbis);
and there was the western island or the Brazil Island (De Brazil). On a
Catalan map of 1375, there were three Islands with the names of
Corvo, Flores, and Sao Jorge. It was thought that maybe the Genoese
may have discovered the Azores at that time and gave those names.7
These speculative sightings indicate that there was some ocean
exploration occurring, or at least, there was interest in what lay
beyond confines of continental Europe.




The link

(an island named) Raca appeared in an Arab manuscript designating an island, or islands, in the same location as the Azores.

source; August Mark Vaz, The Portuguese in California (Oakland, CA: I.D.E.S. Supreme, page 14

The Azores enter the knowledge of all men

A letter written by Alfonso V, King of Portugal, dated July 2, 1439 is
the first known document with a reference to the Azores. Its content
reveals that there were seven islands and that Henry was given the
right to settle them.26 The next known document is a Majorcan map
of the same year which had seven islands and the date of discovery
was recorded as 1432.


In the early 1500's, that Damiao de Goes, under the employment of King
Dom Manoel of Portugal, wrote of a statue of a man on horseback
pointing to the west which was clinging to a rocky ledge. The king
asked for a drawing of it, and after seeing the drawing, he sent
someone to bring it back. As the story goes, it was shattered in a
storm en route, but the king received the parts. There too was an
inscription in the rock below the statue, and an impression was taken
of it. But neither the shattered parts of the statue, nor the impression
of the inscription were ever found. Was it a hoax? Scholars are still
unsure.

Coins too were
found on Corvo, and their images were published in a journal of the
Society of Gothenberg. They were considered to be of Carthagenian or
Cyrenean origin by the society. A twentieth century Portuguese
scholar, made a serious effort to locate the coins. He went to the
convent to which they were first supposedly taken. He also visited
museums where he thought information could be found. But his
investigation turned up nothing.

Sources: Samuel Eliot Morison, Portuguese Voyages to America in the
Fifteenth Century (New York: Octagon Books, 1965), 13. and Guill, History, 56.

At some point, following the discovery of Santa Maria, sheep were let
loose on the island before settlement actually took place. This was
done to supply the future settlers with food because there were no
animals (or crops) on the island.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by kidflash2008
I think the current thinking is if there was an Atlantis, it was most likely Minoan or Crete. There was a catastrophic volcanic eruption over 3500 years ago in that area. The societies they have found were very sophisticated and quite wealthy. This could be the Atlantis referred to by the ancients, although he added a lot of stuff to his description. He was just wrong about its location.


I personally hold the idea that its is a composite concept based on Thera, destruction of Minoan civilization and a few other disasters thrown in.

Plato "pimped it up" a bit, adding in the Egyptian connection to make it seem more mysterious.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 04:34 PM
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I just read the dialogues last week again, and I dont see how anyone can deny the Minoa/atlantis connection.
And the dialogues really say very little about atlantis actually, where people get all the crazy ideas about atlantis I have no idea, crystal, lasers flying machines?.

Firstly it does not say that atlantis is beyond the pillars of hercules,
it says that the island is IN THE DIRECTION OF the pillars of hercules.

It also states that the names are greek translations of egyptian translations of the originals.

In minoan culture the bull was held in high regard, and the atlanteans had a festival dedicated to the bull.

The atlanteans had hot and cold water piped into their houses, the inhabitants of thera had hot and cold water piped into their houses.

The capital of atlantis was on a circular island surounded by canals.
The main city of the minoan culture on thera was on a circular island surrounded by canals.

I think that the portions of the story involving the atlanteans invading greece and going to war with athens, which didnt exsist yet as a city state, were the sexed up part.
In all of the diggings in minoan territory there is one thing missing, there are no fortifications, and there has been no art work found depicting battles and warfare like in all of the other cultures surrounding them.


I believe that the tale that made it to the dialogues was an egyptian story remembering their lost trading partners.

I find it very difficult to believe that the azores were uninhabited before the 15th century, people had been sailing out there for thousands of years.


OH, and atlantis was certainly not the OLMECS, too primative and too late.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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I find it very difficult to believe that the azores were uninhabited before the 15th century, people had been sailing out there for thousands of years.


Not in that area it would seem.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:57 PM
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I think we need to focus on the part about the horse races in the Critias. The statue of a man on a horse pointing west in the Azores may have a connection with the horse races of Atlantis.

What civilization was famous for their horses?

Arabian horses come to mind.


And another thing. What translation of the Critias are you using?

The translation by Benjamin Jowett clearly states that Atlantis was outside the Pillars Heracles. The passage reads this way.

"Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them."

www.sacred-texts.com...


[edit on 17-7-2008 by lostinspace]



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by lostinspace
 


It might make an interesting but better separate thread. I put this thread up to point to a anomalist point. That one of the most common places to place Atlantis has zero indication that anyone ever lived there before the Portuguese showed up.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 04:06 AM
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I have a problem with the whole horseman statue story.

For one thing there were never horses in azores and you would have to go thousands of miles to the east to find wild horses to capture.


And all of the horse centric cultures were in the east, ie. central asia, the first recorded domestication of horses was in the ukraine, 4000bce.

It is very clear in the historic and fossil record that horses came to the old world from the new world via the east.

And the translation of the dialogues i was reading is a modern one. I have been trying to find the site that I found it on, it was a university hosted site.
A whole lot has been learned about the ancient greek langauge since Jowett's translation.(1871).
One of the key differences was how the word that was taken to mean beyond is now agreed to mean in the direction of, or towards.
In fact Jowett himself uses an ambigous meaning of the word, as he uses "beyond" and "in the direction of" in place of the same word.
If I can find the site again I'll post a link.
It was a very good presentation, they compared their translation with the previous ones and explained the differences and how they came to their conclusions.

Another thing is that a war between the atlanteans and the greeks would not have been possible from the azores.
Sure you could sail an army across the med to fight, but to sail all of the way to greece to go to war, from the azores, would be highly un likely.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 11:02 AM
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I'm not sure which translation of C & T I read, if you find that site again I'd be interested in reading it.

The statue story sounds like it may be a myth and may not have any basis in fact.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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The whole Atlantis in Azores is sooo silly. I have ancestors and relatives in Azores.

Seems like this Azores nonsense is to take away from the fact that the Atlantis story is most likely an over sensationalized story of the Aztec, mayan, peruvian etc civilizations of the Americas.

Besides the name atlantis is a name given to the city or the people of a greater city and was most likely not shared by the actual inhabitants. Plato said he got his info from Egypt and his descriptions of Atlantis as the opposite continent the size of asia and africa can only mean the pre columbus americas.

I understand some of you old timers have a hard time believing that the ancient indians of the americas were thriving as the europeans lived in the dark ages and that non whites built the pyramids in egypt and the americas.

So all the evidence points to the country of Atlantis being the americas.

I know hansulane you will disagree. but thats ok, thats what you do.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by IvanZana]



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 11:38 AM
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Howdy Ivanzana



So all the evidence points to the country of Atlantis being the americas.


All the evidence Ivanzana? All the evidence LOL

Okay, please show evidence of a T & C type civilization in the Americas in 11,000 years from present?



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 


They discovered the Minoans had flush toilets. If that isn't an advanced civilization, I don't know what is!
I also believe the ancients traveled back and forth from the Americas to Egypt and other areas in Europe (on ships, not flying saucers).



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Howdy Kid

Yes some Minoan palaces had three pipe systems, water collection, cold water disperal and waste transfer. I should note that only palaces had these.

No evidence as of yet for trans-Atlantic travel in ancient times. We do have evidence of trans-Pacific travel in the last 800 years.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 07:23 PM
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So how did Atlantis get defeated by Athens if they were so advanced?



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:15 PM
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More info on the Azores with thanks to the folks at the Hall of Ma'at for providing indepth answers, Paul H and Peter Clarke

No land animal life was able to get there until the Portuguese showed up.

The area has always been popular with whales

da whales

Less known to the general public is
the occurrence of Late Neogene fossils
of whales in Santa Maria, the
only island in this predominantly
volcanic archipelago with a significant
sedimentary record. These fossils,
nevertheless, are long known
by the local population, which commonly
refers to them as “ossos de
gigantes” (bones of giants). The
present work reviews the scarce
fossil record of cetaceans from
Santa Maria, including both the historical
occurrences long cited in the
literature and some recent ones that
were yet unpublished. All originate
from the Touril Complex, an essentially
marine sedimentary unit,
with some submarine lava flows
intercalated, that has been dated, as
a whole, from the Messinian-
Zanclean (approximately 6.0-4.8
Ma).

The temperate forests of the Azores




The Azores are lush, green islands situated in an isolated spot of the Atlantic Ocean, where temperatures are mild and change little from season to season. Famed for their thermal springs, crater lakes, caverns, and grottoes that result from ongoing volcanic activity, these islands hold many visual attractions. Like other isolated islands, the Azores have functioned as a natural evolutionary laboratory - most of the native plant species are living fossils, phylogenetically primitive, and related to, though divergent from, the preglacial flora of Europe.






posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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I was looking at the place, shape and size of "The Azores Plateau" on that map you posted. It coincides with the place, shape and size of what was proposed to be the location of Atlantis on some medieval map. Unfortunately Im operating from memory here and dont recall the name or source of the map.

This is interesting because I dont think medieval scholars had the means to know the place, shape and size of the "Azores Plataeu" or see it underwater.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by punkinworks
 


If the minoans were so much like Atlantis, they might have been influenced by Atlantis. If Atlantis were so advanced, they likely traveled to places like Crete and Egypt. The Azores seems likely to have been Atlantis, imo. They probably sailed to America too.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Howdy Sky

Yep I've seen some maps like that which had ?mythical? islands in that general area.

St Brendan's Isle?
Isle of Demons and Mayda?
Bresil?






William H. Babcock. Legendary Islands of the Atlantic: A Study in Medieval Geography. New York, 1922.

Oswald Dreyer-Eimbcke. "The Mythical Island of Frisland." From The Map Collector. No. 26; March 1984. Pp. 48f.

Robert H. Fuson. Legendary Islands Of The Ocean Sea. Sarasota, Florida, 1995.

William Herbert Hobbs. "Zeno and the Cartography of Greenland." From Imago Mundi. Vol. VI. 1949. Pp. 15ff.

Donald S. Johnson. Phantom Islands of the Atlantic. The Legends of Seven Lands that Never Were. New York, 1994.

F.J. Manasek. "Frisland. Phantom Island of the North Atlantic." In Mercator's World. Vol. 2; No. 1. Jan/Feb. 1997. Pp. 14-18.

E.H. Sigurdsson. Kortasaga Islands fra ondverdu til Loka 16. aldar. Reykjavik, 1971. English summary pp. 257-59, translated by Johann S. Hannesson




[edit on 18/7/08 by Hanslune]



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