I apologize to all Christians and the Religious

Originally posted by saint4God
Okay, well, what started off as a nice gesture thread has turned into yet another pointless melee and Christian-bashing. While we have those who tank up on Haterade :w: and make baseless judgements and accusations about Christians, I shall slip off quitely in search of meaningful exchange.

Thank you Thread Originator for your kind sincerity.

Pray, train, study, play,
God bless.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by saint4God]

I feel the same way... these kind of discussions are pointless. None of my statements have been baseless. It's just a matter of how aligned you really are with history and world events and how aligned you are with just feeling comfortable because you've been "saved."

Wow, I was afraid this would happen. I was going to abandon this thread, in fear of what may take place. But I'll keep at it, for the sake of keeping peace and empathy alive.

Let me just ask the true Christian believers in here something. I'm not going to condescend or belittle in any way, and this may come off as me being that way, but it is merely a series of questions.

How many Christians here have had a mystic God experience, where they saw the light that "God" was composed of, and saw that that light was emanating from everyone and everything, including yourself? How many who claim to be true of the Christian Faith know EXACTLY what God is composed of? How many of you are actually experiencing God, as opposed to having been taught about God, and thinking that the information presented to you is enough?

Isn't the Devil a part of God, too? Can we not learn from evil?

I personally don't think defining what is "demonic" and what is "of God" is doinq any good, really. I see this happening now, with people coming here and claiming what is God and what isn't God. I think that all things should be able to teach us something... and even evil has that which is good (God) about it, because how would you know what God is without knowing the Devil. Lucifer is, for good reason, called "the light bringer". He's the dark face of creation.

So.... my main question becomes "What ISN'T God?"

Do Christians, in general, not believe that we all are one? If we all are one, then there can't truly be any distinction between right and wrong, God or the Devil, humans or animals, Jesus or average Joe. It would have to all have the same potential or else it couldn't hold form.

Saint4God, I want you to stay here... and I think everyone here should keep a cool head. We're not dealing with thermonukes here. We'll all be fine. Let's just genuinely and openly discuss possibilities... because if the word ends with just one book, or just one person, or just one view, then the universe has gotten too small for anyone to be comfortable.

I see some Christians in here believing that they are exactly right, and the word ends there... but where does that leave room for evolution of the soul and of ideas and of the very things that God created? Would God not want his creations to evolve into higher and higher forms of thought? Would God create one book, stating all the laws of what man should think and believe, and then simply be done?

Have you ever considered that God himself may be evolving right along with us, and that a lot of what was said way back in the first three centuries AD might not be what is needed now?

If you don't believe in evolution, then I don't see any way that any arguments could ever be resolved. We might as well not exist if we are to be condemned, if not for one book and one book only. What good is knowledge and learning, in that case?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Many articles have been written about the post-Christian era. There's a reason it exists. People are smart enough to see the incongruencies of the Christian faith -- if not all religious faiths.

Holding onto outdated theological constructs is not going to save Christianity. Its decline is going to continue. It's inevitable. Yes, we are entering a new age. The old age is phasing itself out. Do I need to "qualify" myself in order for me to be proven right? Or do you just need to open your eyes and begin investigating the subject on your own?

www.youtube.com...





[edit on 7/18/2008 by Matrix1111]

reply to post by dunwichwitch

...How many Christians here have had a mystic God experience, where they saw the light that "God" was composed of, and saw that that light was emanating from everyone and everything, including yourself? How many who claim to be true of the Christian Faith know EXACTLY what God is composed of? How many of you are actually experiencing God...

You might want to see a doctor about that.
I think there is a medication for that.

I think that all things should be able to teach us something... and even evil has that which is good (God) about it, because how would you know what God is without knowing the Devil.

You can do that (learn from any spirit or devil that comes around) if you want.
I am told not to, by the Bible, that tells us to discern between spirits, to reject the bad ones.

"What ISN'T God?"

What is not of God will soon be thrown into the lake of fire, including the devil.

Do Christians, in general, not believe that we all are one? If we all are one, then there can't truly be any distinction between right and wrong, God or the Devil, humans or animals, Jesus or average Joe.

No, Jesus will come and separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the weeds.
If you can not tell between yourself and Jesus, you have a problem.
You might think you can somehow attain a state as high as Jesus' but you will never be able to expunge the guilt of your past.

It would have to all have the same potential or else it couldn't hold form.

God did not set things up in order to satisfy your sense of logic.
You may be suffering from some kind of denial, concerning limitations that have been put on the world.

reply to post by Matrix1111

Many articles have been written about the post-Christian era.

I do not read that kind of propaganda.

There's a reason it exists.

A lot of people hate Christianity.

People are smart enough to see the incongruencies of the Christian faith --

There is a variation in opinions on some subjects of religion.
Or do you see things that cause you to think Christianity is fundamentally flawed to the point of being disfunctional?

Holding onto outdated theological constructs is not going to save Christianity.

I do not think I do, and what will save Christianity has to do with holding the good constructs.

Do I need to "qualify" myself in order for me to be proven right?

Whether or not your beliefs are right, for you, is not my concern.
Keeping the integrity of the church, is.
My personal opinion is that what you believe is not recognizable as Christianity.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
I see some Christians in here believing that they are exactly right, and the word ends there... but where does that leave room for evolution of the soul and of ideas and of the very things that God created? Would God not want his creations to evolve into higher and higher forms of thought? Would God create one book, stating all the laws of what man should think and believe, and then simply be done?

God does not evolve. His very name El Shaddai indicates that He is God Amighty, the Creator. And He neither changes nor adapts. His is the creation, He is the creator. All creation reacts and changes and adapts to HIM...or it will be corruptible and destroyed.

Have you ever considered that God himself may be evolving right along with us, and that a lot of what was said way back in the first three centuries AD might not be what is needed now?

see above. What was "said" back in the first three centuries AD is irrelevant. What the WORD of God says is what it is...the Holy, Inspired, Infallible, Innerrant, Word of God. Only by believing it, and obeying it can we now 'anything' about God.

If you don't believe in evolution, then I don't see any way that any arguments could ever be resolved. We might as well not exist if we are to be condemned, if not for one book and one book only. What good is knowledge and learning, in that case?

Evolution? more like De-volution. Man has increasingly devolved from the original creation. He is sinful and if not repentant (which means he hears the Word, and the Holy Spirit opens his heart that he may KNOW he is sinful and turn away from that sinful like) then he will be condemned. By his own actions of rejecting God.
So, why would God do that, why 'exist' at all as you asked? 2 Peter 3:1-14 says this:

I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Peace my friend.

Originally posted by Matrix1111

And the arrogance of Christians continues to upset two thirds of the world that isn't Christian. Why? Because the true teachings of Jesus have never come off the stainglass windows of church chapels. Christians are just happy in their assumed superiority and figure Jesus will fix the problems of the world. Christians can just continue to reap their blessings at the expense of the underprivileged. Indigenous peoples of the world love the way Christian missionaries were used to colonize the world and enslave the masses into servitude. Muslims love the way Christians have marginalized their cultural value and installed corrupt dictators that have exploited the Muslim people and kept them impoverished. The list of injustices goes on and on. And why? Because Christians reject James' "works not faith alone" teaching. So they just rest on their laurels thinking the world should love them. How narrowminded and arrogant is that?

Well, before I actually start insulting you, I better go.

:-)

Well I gotta tell ya,, I'm with jmdewey60 all the way on this one and nothing I can't stand more than a guy bearing false witness on a babe in Christ. Don't even give me your thou shalt not judge because you can bet yer blind side I am going to do just that. If you are going to say the Bible is full of contradictions, I suggest you consider it is YOUR inadequate understanding and NOT the Bible that is in error.

The Bible is literally true. The Bible has proven itself to be an authority far superior to the vagaries of the various scientific methods that are out there. God is no more impressed with my opinions than He is with your opinions. God can reveal something to someone, but a revelation will never conflict with Scripture.

The revelation that comes from Jesus Christ is different from human reasoning. It is higher. God says, in Isaiah 55:8, " my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways . . ." You may have given your heart to Jesus, but you may have kept your mind, or at least some parts of your mind, to yourself as your own domain. Part of salvation is to also give your mind to Jesus, to let Him direct in all things.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes: fear (hold in great awe and respect) the LORD, and depart from evil. God hides things and those things belong to God. He also reveals things to us, and those things are precious.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. The sign of spiritual immaturity is to try to rationalize answers to that which God has hidden, and to then become dogmatic about our rationalizations is one of the main causes of strife in the Church.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar

Well, before I actually start insulting you, I better go.

Yeah that sounds like a good idea maybe you should just do that but before you decide,, you have heard of the Scietific method Christian?

It is a protocol (rarely used if used at all or properly) that ensures a logical perspective for the veracity testing any experiments getting the most accurate and objective results.

Their is one for the Bible also it goes like this

Let's agree to follow the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,"

even though those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God have no reason to follow such a rule.

If someone were to say to you, "If I can misinterpret any one of your statements, then you are lying or in error," then, what would your hope of communicating with that person be? This is exactly the attitude of the liberal toward the Word of God as found in the Bible.

No wonder liberals cannot make a connection with the God of the Bible.

Every single argument that has ever claimed Biblical error has followed the deceptive pattern just mentioned. All of those arguments have been shown to be bogus, but the Bible stands.

An error or conflict in Scripture would need to be absolute. It would need to involve no assumptions. A situation would have to exist where there was no set of assumptions that could possibly show that there was no error or conflict. Some would say that this would eliminate all possible errors, but this is not true. If there were real errors in the Bible, then it would be very easy to find them using these rules. Science books, by this rule, should be and are replaced often because of the errors that exist in them.

From a Naturalistic or Materialistic world-view:

The correct way to interpret a statement, in the natural or material, is to say, "I don't know about that about that particular point," whenever a statement has any possibility of being interpreted in many ways. If there is any way or if there are any assumptions that could make the statement a non-error, then the naturalist, if he or she is honest, would not claim that there was an error. If the Naturalist or Materialist were actually honest, they would further admit that there may be scenarios of which they are not aware.

Virtually every Naturalistic/Materialistic claim of biblical error involves a Naturalist/Materialist who is claiming that his/her interpretation is the only possible interpretation and they always are making assumptions. Without these assumptions, the supposed error disappears.

From a rationalized Christian world-view:

The correct way to interpret a statement, from a rationalized Christian world-view, is to say, "I don't know about that particular point, but the Bible says of itself that it is without error," whenever a statement has any possibility of being interpreted in many ways. If there is any way or if there are any assumptions that could make the statement a non-error, then the rationalistic Christian, if he or she is honest, would not claim that there was an error.

The problem is that the rationalizing Christians tend to add the suppositions that are products of their own minds to the Bible. Then, they find that God is not like their suppositions, and they foall into doubt. Without these assumptions, supposed errors always disappear.

The second part of the answer has to do with the very necessary safe guards that God built into the Scriptural church order, the Scriptural church order that most of the church chooses not to follow.

Every Christian is aware of the deceptiveness of the human mind and how It is very easy to interpret Scripture by the human mind and think that a revelation from God is taking place. When revelation is given, it is natural for the human mind to try to fill in that which has not been revealed.

Whether they rationalize their speculation or spiritualize their speculation, they fill in from the human mind and blunt God's Sword. This is one of the main causes for doctrinal debates between Christians and it is actually a sign of spiritual immaturity.

The order of God, which is clearly given in the Bible, shows the wisdom of God in creating an order that, among many other benefits, provides the benefit of guarding against division because of speculative doctrine.

I congratulate the OP and even though he and I have had our quarels, all is forgiven and forgot.

I would like to add something however I am with Big Whammy on the choice of Christianity you've taken but it is good to see the lord working through you and you can be assured Christianity is a religion like NO OTHER it is the ONLY choice, the RIGHT Choice and the Lord Jesus Christ is the truth and the life and NO ONE can get to the father but through Jesus. For if anyone has any doubts or may try to confuse you,, consider seriously the following:

Evidence

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Christian faith.    The apostle Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain" (1 Cor. 15:17).

Our belief in this great teaching is not based upon some religious feeling or upon an unfounded idea about what may have happened in the past.  Nor are we talking about an isolated rumor, but about a historical fact with solid evidence to support it.

Many have tried to disparage the very existence of Jesus Christ with the most recent being the You Tube renown video, "The God That Wasn't There" which had used many of the same tactics mentioned here on ATS and this place has been the forum for many spiritual battles of every kind from matching wits with Atheists to rebuking the many false prophets posing as angels incarnate to the many cults and false religions such as Scientology.

Of those that have tried to disprove our lord Jesus Christ, the OP can be assured that THIS one is, to borrow a jingle from Coca Cola,,

THE REAL THING!

None can erase this God from our existence and though many have tried, All of them and I mean every one of them but paled in comparison to the trial of Jesus Resurrection, the trial of this century, was convened by an elite group of top lawyers who met in England to discuss the biblical accounts of Jesus' resurrection.

They wanted to see if sufficient information was available to make a case that would hold up in an English court of law.  

They researched volumes of recorded data for and against the Biblical account. Going in, many of them thought the case for Jesus would forever be destroyed under cross examination and legalese. When their study was completed, they published the results of their investigation.  

They concluded that Christ's resurrection was NOT ONLY PROVEN, beyond any reasonable doubt but beyond ALL doubt. In fact, it was the unanimous conclusion, Christ's Resurrection is one of the most well established facts of history!

While cynics like to impart debunking suppositions to invalidate the Christian God comparing pagan Gods or suggesting that Christ significance devalued as a mere copycat of so many other Gods born of a virgin and alleged to have risen from the grave, I submit that NO religion, NONE, have what Christianity has, none are even close,

Christianity is the ONLY religion that can prove itself.

Jesus Christ has copied NO ONE and NO ONE has been able to do what Jesus did, proving he was God by suffering, arguably one of the most excruciating and slow deaths, the very word "excruciating" comes from the Roman method of Capital Punishment "Crucifixion" and was dead buried and resurrected.

The others?

Confucius' tomb = occupied.
 
Buddha's tomb = occupied.

Mohammed's tomb = occupied

Jesus' tomb? VACANT!  Empty!


No comparison, No Copy Cat, He is the Lamb of God, the lion of Judah, The truth and the life everlasting, the master teacher, the son of man, the alpha and omega, the messiah, the lord, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords IE; GOD and you will come to know him atheist or not, you will come to know and believe, if you don't now, you will later where it is appointed unto man a time to die,
Then comes Judgment

All knees will bend, all heads will bow

May the lord God bless you and

keep you dunwichwitch

in Jesus name

- Con








[edit on 19-7-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by dunwichwitch

Let me just ask the true Christian believers in here something. I'm not going to condescend or belittle in any way, and this may come off as me being that way, but it is merely a series of questions.

How many Christians here have had a mystic God experience, where they saw the light that "God" was composed of, and saw that that light was emanating from everyone and everything, including yourself? How many who claim to be true of the Christian Faith know EXACTLY what God is composed of? How many of you are actually experiencing God, as opposed to having been taught about God, and thinking that the information presented to you is enough?

Good questions. Apparently the "true Christians" here haven't had such experiences. And if you admit to having us spiritual experiences, "true Christians" will think you're of the devil.

Just what is a true Christian? A fundamentalist who accepts the bible as the infallible word of God? That doesn't leave much room to true enlghtenment or global harmony, though.

Sorry I ruined your thread. It was inevitable though. You just can't talk Jesus if you color outside the lines of the bible. At least that's the case with fundamentalists. You should start another thread just for openminded people.

reply to post by Matrix1111


Yes, on '___'.
I could see that everything was part of God.
So, I have had that experience.
So, I understand that there is a connection between everything in the universe.
But understanding that God holds together the universe does not mean that you understand God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111

 

But understanding that God holds together the universe does not mean that you understand God.

Bingo! We should not presume to be able to understand, explain, or prove God's existence. If I claimed such things, and/or was able to, then He would not be El Shaddai, God Almighty that the Bible says He is, and that He claimed for Himself when he told Moses to identify Him to the people as "I am".

[edit on 20-7-2008 by TrailGator]

reply to post by dunwichwitch

I'm not talking about Orthodox Christianity.

Then you aren't talking about Christianity:
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

2 Tim 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have seen too much to take the Bible literally.

In verses 16-17 above:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If I am left to my own 'devices' so that I decide what is good or evil, I fall into a trap:

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right (good...correct...the RIGHT way) unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I don't get to define what is 'sin' and what is NOT 'sin'.

I'm talking about the path of Gnostic Christian Mysticism.

Here is Gnosticism at its root/base/beginning (level):

Isa 14:13-14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

...and the result:

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Jesus did not come to call the righteous:
Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The (by definition) esoteric teachings of Gnosticism preclude my daughters (8, 5 and 15-months old) from being enlightened (by Gnosticism) until they are old enough to 'understand'.

Yet Jesus said:

Matt 18:2-4 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"Little children" don't need to understand quantum physics because they have no USE for quantum physics.

The little girl, who is crying, doesn't need a lecture on "string-theory", she needs mommy (or daddy) to pick her up and ask what is wrong and to provide some comfort.

Gnosticism also presumes that what the Bible says (for them) is incomplete, at best, or CORRUPT at worst It presumes a god (small 'g') who gave a few hints, here and there...but left us, individually, to figure it out

But the Bible says:

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Gnosticism lays burdens at men's feet that we were never required to carry. Jesus said His yoke was easy...His burden: light.

Gnosticism, also, requires a never-ending search...never complete...never satiated...never (really) at peace with God, but competing WITH (THEIR idea of what SHOULD be) God. It presumes that unless one BECOMES (their idea of being) god-like, one is failing in becoming the very god they desire to be. This is the error. This is no different than what Lucifer did.

They, also, compare themselves with others around them and are constantly looking down in disdain (or pity) at the other's lack of (secret...not OPEN) knowledge, err, rather "Gnosticism". OH yes they ARE! "You aren't as much of a god as I am!" BUT...they are too much of a COWARD to say it outright. They THINK this, but they don't dare SAY it to you. Is this their way of "charity"?

Please note that the Greek word "Gnosis" is also where we get our word English word, "KNOWLEDGE". This is also where we get the term "Agnostic". This means, they are "without knowledge" (of God). I suppose one could say that, "Agnostic means without the knowledge of ANY god"? For if an agnostic knew of any god, one wouldn't BE an A-Gnostic (without knowledge of any god.)

May I further suggest that since the Agnostic knows of no god, the Agnostic, by definition, must BE his/her own god? This must be true, is it not?

The deer in the woods doesn't fear a "God", it only fears what will hurt it.

The deer, in it's mind, knows only of it's own instinct. The deer in the woods, being shot at, doesn't even for a moment, CARE who or what it hurts while RUNNING in fear. The deer in the woods has no CARE but for its own welfare. This deer is it's own god.

The beasts of the field are Agnostic. They CERTAINLY aren't atheists...they can, at best, be Agnostic, because they are without knowledge of (ANY) god that would ever step in and save them from CERTAIN destruction...death.

The beasts of the field are their own god, and Gnosticism fails because it makes men out to be no more than beasts...who are their own god.

2 Peter 2:10-12 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The whole chapter of 2 Peter 2 (for context) IS a good description of some of these "gnostics", as well as others who bring in "DAMNABLE heresies".

Jude says it in a similar way.

I don't like Gnosticism. The Bible speaks against it.

reply to post by Matrix1111

Good questions. Apparently the "true Christians" here haven't had such experiences.

How can my, or other's PERSONAL (non-verifiable) experiences 'prove or disprove' anything they are saying?

In other words, if I (or others) claim a personal experience that proves 'x', how does it make 'x' true? Is my (or other's) testimony to this...make it true?

The Christian doesn't walk by sight, but by faith:

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Unto Thomas, Jesus said:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

If "proof" of being somewhat more "spiritual" came from seeing/experiencing (SOME sort of) the supernatural, then why the admonition from our Lord God above?

Matrix1111 also said:

Many articles have been written about the post-Christian era. There's a reason it exists. People are smart enough to see the incongruencies of the Christian faith -- if not all religious faiths.

Holding onto outdated theological constructs is not going to save Christianity. Its decline is going to continue. It's inevitable. Yes, we are entering a new age. The old age is phasing itself out. Do I need to "qualify" myself in order for me to be proven right? Or do you just need to open your eyes and begin investigating the subject on your own?

Are you saying that christianity (small 'c') ultimately ends up apostate?

It is (was) predicted:
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again, I quote you:

Holding onto outdated theological constructs is not going to save Christianity.

This, above, is the very essence of apostasy. This statement implies that what WAS important as Biblical doctrine, in the past, doesn't mean ANYTHING anymore.

This...is the essence of apostasy.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Saint4God, I want you to stay here... and I think everyone here should keep a cool head.

Thanks. I'm quietly watching at the moment because I'm seeing two things I like - Emotion and Scripture. During those times I tend to zip my lip as both sides are being represented. I usually chime in when there's an unfair inbalance and believe the person I'm speaking to will consider and respond. I'm also available by U2U if you like.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
If you don't believe in evolution, then I don't see any way that any arguments could ever be resolved.

Part of visiting ATS is encouraging an open mind. Although we're not charged to agree with one another, we are at least asked to change our paradigm.

Regarding evolution, there's a plethora of different ideas and beliefs a Christian could have while still being Biblical. If by 'evolve' you mean 'change' then of course there is change in the universe. If you mean trans-speciation, that's where the territory gets sketchy. As one with a Bachelor's in Biology, I do not support trans-speciation at this time. There's a lack of mechanisms that describe 'how' it occurs and for me, science is all about the proof on 'how'.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by saint4God]

I apologize to anyone who feels they were flamed by me on this thread.
Some of these people involved are relatively new to this forum and I did not know them.
I have grown to appreciate better some of these people and value their contributions, in general, to the forum as a whole.
I get a little touchy when people try to bring in philosophies that are not in origin Judeo/Christian.
I feel it necessary to differentiate our traditional form of Christianity from religion that is outside that tradition.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Unless you are a spiteful pessimist, you cannot deny the beauty and truth in much of what Jesus taught. You could say it was all made up, and that Jesus never existed... but then you're missing the message, and instead shooting the messenger, and that is the definition of ignorance, my friends.

Thank you and peace.

I personally think this thread is wonderful for the OP for we all require an initial rooting for growth.

It was taught to me, to " Water each tree according to its need ".

And so it is with all of us from the lord, each receiving whether we know it or not, the nurturing and care we need.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
you cannot deny the beauty and truth in much of what Jesus taught.

Love one another.

Peace