I apologize to all Christians and the Religious, page 3
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reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 12:01 PM by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111


There is indeed scripture that supports our divine potential:....

Here is scripture that supports our human potential:
Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I was not kidding when I said that if you promote Lucifer, expect resistance.
The serpent said, Ye shall be gods.
God says you will be adopted as sons into my Kingdom and shall serve me.
Rebel if you must, but your leader is Lucifer, and not Jesus.

You can follow Lucifer or Satan or the demon of your choice.
That does not bother me.
It is still a nominally free country, as far as freedom of religion goes.
I do not go on Satan threads and bother anyone.
I just do not like the teachings of our enemy being presented as if it comes from Jesus.



[edit on 17-7-2008 by jmdewey60]


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 12:29 PM by saint4God
jm is totally black-coffee...no cream, no sugar. Hopefully this is taken as a compliment as intended, but also in a light request to take it easy on our fellow ATS persons.

If I may paint a the picture with another paradigm. I appreciate Matrix1111's quotes, they are the Bible and certainly stand on their own...just as my Biblical quotes do. Keeping in mind that the Bible does not contradict itself and we are to take the whole book into consideration, there is a "on the one hand" this and "yet on the other hand" that. I'll explain.

1.) On one hand, per my quotes, only God is god. We are not God, nor are we gods. This has been made clear in both the Old Testament and New.

2.) On the other hand, there will become a day when we are Christ-like. This means we will be more than the mere humans we know ourselves to be. We will not be God, we will not be Jesus, we will not be angels, but a unique breed that God calls his own children:

"I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead." - Philippians 3:10-11

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." - Ephesians 1:4-6

Yes, we have spiritual potential but no, we are not gods.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by saint4God]


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 01:08 PM by Matrix1111
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111


There is indeed scripture that supports our divine potential:....

Here is scripture that supports our human potential:
Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I was not kidding when I said that if you promote Lucifer, expect resistance.
The serpent said, Ye shall be gods.
God says you will be adopted as sons into my Kingdom and shall serve me.
Rebel if you must, but your leader is Lucifer, and not Jesus.

You can follow Lucifer or Satan or the demon of your choice.
That does not bother me.
It is still a nominally free country, as far as freedom of religion goes.
I do not go on Satan threads and bother anyone.
I just do not like the teachings of our enemy being presented as if it comes from Jesus.



[edit on 17-7-2008 by jmdewey60]


We all have elements of satan within us. If you claim to be without sin, then you make Jesus a liar. How then can you say your view of the matter is more accurate (holy?) than mine? And what do you base your position on? The bible? But is the bible the final truth? If not, then watch your step. People also thought Jesus was speaking words that conflicted with the bible and, likewised accused him of being of the devil. But he was the embodiment of truth. Not much has changed in 2,000 years.

Today, Christians claim they hold a superior knowledge of God based on a bible that is incomplete and full of contradictions. In Jesus' lifetime, his own disciples couldn't understand him. Many left him because his teachings were too hard. (John 6:60-66) In the end Jesus had to tell his disciples that they would have to wait for another time to gain all the truth.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." John 16:12-15

The question that remains is did the Spirit of truth come and lead Christians into "all the truth?" If he/she/what came, then when did it happen? If so, why are so many Christian denominations in disagreement?

The ironic thing in Jesus' life was that even his disciples rejected his teachings and found that following him was too hard. With this kind of confusion surrounding Jesus while he lived, and the inability for his own disciples to comprehend his teachings, and almost 2,000 years of theological infighting, who can be sure what is what?

I think I Corinthians 13 give the best analysis of the matter and what we need to do in order to be pure enough to recognize the truth when it stares us in the face:

www.biblegateway.com...

Yep, for we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.



reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 01:20 PM by Matrix1111
reply to post by saint4God


I thought I was clear in saying we have the potential to be like gods. (emphasis on potential) Obviously we are not gods yet. Look at how ego and self gets in the way of truly understanding. Our perceptions are clouded by sin. That is undeniable.


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 01:26 PM by saint4God
Originally posted by Matrix1111
We all have elements of satan within us. If you claim to be without sin, then you make Jesus a liar.


Well, this is true.

Originally posted by Matrix1111
How then can you say your view of the matter is more accurate (holy?) than mine? And what do you base your position on? The bible?


I'm not a peacemaker merely for the sake of peace, but I would like to ask you both to recognize that each other has made some very good and valid points.

Originally posted by Matrix1111
But is the bible the final truth?


Yes, though surely jm can speak for her/himself.

Originally posted by Matrix1111
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." John 16:12-15


This already happened in Acts. It isn't still a mystery.

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." -Acts 2:1-4

And, it happens to believers when they are saved:

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." - Acts 2:38

Originally posted by Matrix1111
The question that remains is did the Spirit of truth come and lead Christians into "all the truth?"


Better to re-phrase what is known about God and salvation through Christ is true. If we knew everything, we'd be God (which we are not) and life would be pretty boring.

Originally posted by Matrix1111
If he/she/what came, then when did it happen?


Acts 2

Originally posted by Matrix1111
If so, why are so many Christian denominations in disagreement?


There aren't as many disagreements as you may think. Disagreements usually fall into one of two catagories:

1.) Administration: The Baptist church appoints a Pastor who runs the show. The Presbyterian Church of American has the church body elect a Pastor who can also elect to remove him. Presbyterians has a structure of deacons and elders for a large church whereas Baptists believe in a more missionary approach of having a lot of small churches in many communities.

2.) Quibble-points: These are things not in the Bible (or clearly spelled out) that the church must decide upon as to where they stand.

In either case, division is not the way it should be:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" - 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Personally I'd rather have a division than one church that mandates 'this is what you must believe about whatever we say or else no church for you'. So...weigh accordingly, but I'd prefer a unified church that gives its believers encouragement and not mandates. The good news is, most of these 'divisions' do not have mandates. Finally, keep in mind The Church is not a building, or a pastor, or a national organization, it is all believers. In that sense, the Church is not divided at all.

Originally posted by Matrix1111
www.biblegateway.com...


Biblegateway is a great resource and am glad you use it as well

By no means am I trying to answer for jm, just wanted to raise these points for consideration.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by saint4God]


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 02:53 PM by TrailGator
reply to post by saint4God


very well laid out and articulated. Star for you for an excellent post!


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 03:55 PM by Matrix1111
reply to post by saint4God


Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was written sometime between 53 to 57 AD. The events reported in Acts by Luke happened 40 days after the resurrection of Jesus. When Paul is explaining the imperfection of Christian knowledge will exist until Christ returns, he is doing so well after your supposed Spirit of Truth brought all the truth. (Acts 2) Hence, there's a contradiction between what you say and what Pauls says.

The bible and salvation is incomplete until Christ returns. Paul explained this clearly when he spoke of his inner battle between his carnal desires and his Christian ideals. (Romans 7:23-25) This moral battle within man did not go away with the level of salvation brought by the Holy Spirit of Acts 2. We still count on a return of Christ finishing the job of being made whole again.

The division within the body of Christ is a reflection of this imperfect state of man. Perfect man would not have this inner conflict and contradiction with his "members," as Paul put it. If "all truth" had come at the time of the pentacost, then we would all be enlightened beings living with the consciousness that we were the temples of God and had the power to do what Jesus could do: heal, forgive sins, walk on water, appear and disappear... We would know the truth and not question it. There would be no disagreement in doctrine. This isn't the case. So Acts 2 wasn't the coming of the Spirit of Truth. The infallibility of man and the church remains.



[edit on 7/17/2008 by Matrix1111]


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 04:02 PM by Misfit
I see some things never change.


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 05:04 PM by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111


originally posted by Matrix1111
watch your step. People also thought Jesus was speaking words that conflicted with the bible and, likewised accused him of being of the devil. But he was the embodiment of truth. Not much has changed in 2,000 years.

I am happy with the Messiah that God provided for me.
I am satisfied with my Bible.
I am satisfied with the Holy Spirit that God has sent to me.
I am satisfied that God has not led me astray.
I think all prophesy is fulfilled in Jesus.
I do not think God would send me a new teacher to guide me into another path.
I feel pretty confident in rejecting your teachings.
These have always been around and they are nothing new.
These false teachings have been rejected by the Church, for as long as there has been a Church.
I do not see any reason for everything to be overturned.
We live in a time where Satan has a lot more tools to put to use.
We have the previously condemned books uncovered and brought to light.
Our understanding of history and languages have advanced.
The authoritarian power of a State Religion has been crippled to crush heresy.
The internet gives us the ability to distribute information.
If there is an increase in these variant beliefs, it is not because of a special dispensation of Spirit.
It comes from the work of man. (and man's enemy)



[edit on 17-7-2008 by jmdewey60]


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 05:40 PM by Anonymous ATS
I just wanted to say 1 thing to dunwichwitch and to the quote unquote "Christians" calling Mysticism and Gnosticism a path to the devil.

Dunwichwitch,
What happens when somebody chooses to follow Jesus is that pretty much the whole world including many self professed Christians themselves will turn on you. Your own friends, family, peers, and even other Christians if they find out your not part of their denomination (more on that part later)

The thing is that Jesus mentions this as the cost for following him:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34)

So basically he pre-warns what will happen as the cost of following him. I've seen friends and other people who became Christians kicked out of there families houses, uninvited to wedding/christmas dinners/bar-b-ques. AFter that comes judgement by them that your a weirdo and they ask if you belong to a cult because the norm is to avoid church and these subjects alltogether or just go for easter and Christmas if that...and thats just to sit there for the pretty decorations most of the time.
____________
Why would other self professed Christians condemn you??? Well that's because it shows where they are spiritually. Somebody such as that still lives in the ego and became a Christian based on fear, pressure, community, and so forth. That is a person who still lives in seperation of us versus you and only "I" know the truth.

Mysticism and Gnosticsm work in this way. If you come to Christ and it's genuine, you enter an inner/outer Spiritual path where Jesus personally guides you. But in the west, there no longer is any meditation, contemplation, inner work because the west is so focused on outer things.....so most Western Christians still remain ego and almost none are experience based Christians....that way many of them judge. The atrocities done in Jesus name are/were done by people that claimed to be Christians but never experienced Christ, instead seem like Charlatans all going by ego's recommendations.

When you do experience Christ and him guiding you into Union with God.....your whole reality and all your experiences become Mystical in nature...because they transcend words, transcend this world, transcend these other people who call them selves Christian and condemn mysticism and gnosticism not because they ever experienced it, but because they put ther complete trust in their pastor who tells them these things and who himself never experienced these realites...instead this pastor is running at the mouth concepts that he learned from a book in theology school.

Somebody who is telling you this or that and its only based on what someone else told them or because they read it has no weight. Whereas someone who is telling you of a concept who themselves have experienced it and know it as a truth...it comes off as having more substance/truth to it then from the former.

Yes, comming to Christ and being guided by him....is a pretty simple path much like being a child, much like just "being" while the master guides. However, this guidance will bring you into spiritual realities, ego death, indwelling of the Spirit, illumination, Dark Night of the Soul and Union.....all of these things which are excepted not only by mystics but also by catholics, orthodox, and most denominations and famous theologians and these are things that have a mystic nature to them, and they get u to a place of Divine Love...wheres the devil in that????


reply posted on 17-7-2008 @ 06:27 PM by jmdewey60
reply to post by Anonymous ATS


If you come to Christ and it's genuine, you enter an inner/outer Spiritual path where Jesus personally guides you.

Do you think that in all my years of being a Christian, I never let my guard down, for one second, to let in Jesus?
Sorry, but you let yourself be open to wandering spirits, looking for a mind to dwell in and work mischief with.


reply posted on 18-7-2008 @ 02:05 AM by iesus_freak
reply to post by dunwichwitch
thank you for saying sory but uh thats not christianity... christianity is exactly what the bible teaches and means and judaism is exactly what judaism teaches and means you can not add or amend any of it if you do its turned into another religion... you can use the bible for your religion and not be a christian look at the mormons


reply posted on 18-7-2008 @ 09:56 AM by Matrix1111
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111


originally posted by Matrix1111
watch your step. People also thought Jesus was speaking words that conflicted with the bible and, likewised accused him of being of the devil. But he was the embodiment of truth. Not much has changed in 2,000 years.

I am happy with the Messiah that God provided for me.
I am satisfied with my Bible.
I am satisfied with the Holy Spirit that God has sent to me.
I am satisfied that God has not led me astray.
I think all prophesy is fulfilled in Jesus.
I do not think God would send me a new teacher to guide me into another path.
I feel pretty confident in rejecting your teachings.
These have always been around and they are nothing new.
These false teachings have been rejected by the Church, for as long as there has been a Church.
I do not see any reason for everything to be overturned.
We live in a time where Satan has a lot more tools to put to use.
We have the previously condemned books uncovered and brought to light.
Our understanding of history and languages have advanced.
The authoritarian power of a State Religion has been crippled to crush heresy.
The internet gives us the ability to distribute information.
If there is an increase in these variant beliefs, it is not because of a special dispensation of Spirit.
It comes from the work of man. (and man's enemy)



[edit on 17-7-2008 by jmdewey60]


And the arrogance of Christians continues to upset two thirds of the world that isn't Christian. Why? Because the true teachings of Jesus have never come off the stainglass windows of church chapels. Christians are just happy in their assumed superiority and figure Jesus will fix the problems of the world. Christians can just continue to reap their blessings at the expense of the underprivileged. Indigenous peoples of the world love the way Christian missionaries were used to colonize the world and enslave the masses into servitude. Muslims love the way Christians have marginalized their cultural value and installed corrupt dictators that have exploited the Muslim people and kept them impoverished. The list of injustices goes on and on. And why? Because Christians reject James' "works not faith alone" teaching. So they just rest on their laurels thinking the world should love them. How narrowminded and arrogant is that?

Well, before I actually start insulting you, I better go.

:-)


reply posted on 18-7-2008 @ 10:25 AM by TrailGator
reply to post by Matrix1111


no real Christian would ever reject the idea of 'doing works'. That is at the very core of what Jesus did. But He didn't do them - nor should we - as a way of 'earning' ourselves into heaven. Talk about ego? That's ego, that thinks that anything we can do - anything - earns us any respect from a perfect and Holy God. No, the bible says that a broken and contrite heart is what moves God into action. Not ego like "look at how many I fed, unlike you Christians"

However, faith is the essence of coming to a saving knowledge of Christ. But like James teaches, you cannot have faith without doing the works that Christ wanted, which is to take care of widows and orphans, and to "give a cup of water in my name" or share what you have....all must be done, but Ephesians makes it clear in chapter 2, v 8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Faith to believe, actions (works) to show the evidence of that faith. This is "the Way". The only way.





[edit on 18-7-2008 by TrailGator]



reply posted on 18-7-2008 @ 11:19 AM by Matrix1111
Originally posted by TrailGator
reply to post by Matrix1111


no real Christian would ever reject the idea of 'doing works'.



Agreed, a true Christian does good works. But the reality is, there are few true Christians. That's the problem. That's why the body of Christ is powerless to fix the world and why the world says "Yankee go home."

Christians believe this world isn't worth the effort, that it will all be dealt with at the time of Christ's second coming, that it's not their responsibility, it's all going to blow up in the Apocalypse, therefore, just live for yourself. Will that kind of faith get Christians into heaven? I don't think so.


reply posted on 18-7-2008 @ 01:29 PM by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111


Christians believe this world isn't worth the effort, that it will all be dealt with at the time of Christ's second coming, that it's not their responsibility, it's all going to blow up in the Apocalypse, therefore, just live for yourself. Will that kind of faith get Christians into heaven? I don't think so.

I know that one of the early to accept the-eminent-second-coming-of-Christ denominations has been at the fore front of bringing relief and assistance and teaching to the third world.
I can give you a few examples, but I will give you one, for now.
The woman who was the department head where I worked, left a very nice job to go to Haiti.
Her relief center was the only one that was not damaged, while all the other humanitarian centers were wrecked in the riots.
She came back to visit, here, and I asked her how things were going.
She looked very happy and was smiling and told me "Fine" as if everything was normal.
Anyway it is not the people who believe the end is coming, who are the problem.
In my opinion, the problem is the relatively new idea of a pre-tribulation rapture.
People who know we are going to have to go through it, along with everyone else, want to work to mitigate the situation.
I think that the people who believe that they are going to be air-lifted before the worse happens, could care less.
Originally posted by Matrix1111
Well, before I actually start insulting you, I better go.

Don't worry about me.
I know I am being harsh.
You are fine with what you believe, as far as I am concerned.
I guess my problem is that I think you should qualify what you believe, if you want to promote it, as NEW AGE.
Christians are happy with what Christianity is.
If you do not like it, do not call yourself a Christian.


[edit on 18-7-2008 by jmdewey60]
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