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I apologize to all Christians and the Religious

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posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


I ran into Gnosticism years ago while studying early Christian heresies.
I got interested in it and bought what books were available, as far as serious historical analysis.
I tend to think that it has nothing to do with Jesus, other than to borrow a bunch of names found in the Gospels.




posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


The OP is one of the most astoundingly humble things I have read on ATS. May the prayers of my ancestors aid you on your journey.

As you are interested in a sort of "re-appraised" Gnostic Christianity, there are some books I have read that may help you. Christian O'Brien the Sumerian scholar made a fresh translation of the document known as Pistis Sophia. I believe it is published now as "The Path of Christ" though at one time I thought he was to entitle it "The Dao of Christ". In any case it is good to read it in comparison to the other translations of the Pistis Sophia.

And while it is a challenge -- and at times a great slog -- get to know the scholar Margaret Barker's work. She is an amazing Methodist lay preacher and professor of hebrew scriptures, who works for an Anglican Diocese in England, and writes astounding reinterpretations of everything from the origin of the Hebrew religion, the goddess in the Temple, and the ministry and teaching of Jesus the Nazarene. Here is a link to her personal little website Very recently the current Archbishop of Canterbury (who is very much hated by Bible-conservatives and is derisively called the ArchDruid -- which I think is a wonderful title to be worn with pride) Dr. Rowan Williams has awarded her a Doctor of Divinity. Just FYI.

Blessings!



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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Thanks for all the replies!

As for Gnosticism not being the true word of Christ, I think that is probablyc as much true as it is for the straight ahead Holy Bible. I'm not saying that there are not truths in each of these paths and more, but being an independent thinker, I take a little from here and from there... and I couldn't stop doing that even now. There are hidden meanings in almost everything, as well as there is beauty and truth in the obvious, so I think it would be dangerous to your own independent spirit to take something strictly literally or strictly metaphorically or strictly cryptically. Trying to balance it all out. That's what I'm trying to do. It is a lot to ingest, and there's not much support from friends and family.

Some say "What are you, joining a cult or something?". Others begin to ignore you just because you aren't talking about the latest band or someone else's relationship or some new gadget or the news or a movie or a tv show or money or just all the absoutely inane things people go on and on about ceaselessly. I've already been condemned as a "weirdo" for just being me, and now all of this on top of it... it's a heavy heavy thing to deal with.
I'm not strong enough yet to handle this all by my lonesome. Nobody should have to go through life on the defense and all alone. I have found atheism and people who rebel against the unseen to be mostly quite pessimistic and negative people, and is it maybe because they are constantly on guard trying to keep their image in this physical world intact? No wonder so many people give up their power. They just don't wanna go through life all alone, and that is really what atheism feels like. I'm not the most well understood guy on Earth, and if I was all alone here, there would be absolutely no reason for me to live anymore. No reason for any of us to live. Luckily, I know that's not true. Now that I know, I wish to know more.

If the Holy Bible and Jesus alone is your salvation, that is perfectly okay. I can handle a world where everyone walks in Jesus' footsteps. Such a great way to live by, in my opinion.... whether it be true or not (some of us know it has to be largely true, though). The thing I truly believe, though, is that Jesus didn't want people to just follow and believe. He wanted them to be and to know. You'll find quotes in the official Bible that allude to this.
From what I understand about Gnosticism (believe me, I don't walk into any situation blind. I walked into that situation because I can read between lines, and because I have a certain knowing... which even many of the faithful do not exactly know yet, which is okay. I sometimes wish I just had belief in something, instead of knowing.) it is right in line with what I logically, from what I know, would have said myself if I had been that very guy from Galilee all of those years ago. You can't just come out and say it because people would pretty much damn you on the spot, so he spoke in parables. Poetic imagery which was to be contemplated on during meditation and such... because it would be cheating to just say "Hey, you are I and I am you, and we're all Gods experiencing this world we created. Have fun with that bit of information!"

Blah. I think I'm rambling now... but everyone finds their own path, be it a religion, be it a philosophy, be it whatever. They may not find the ultimate answer in this lifetime, but at least it gave them hope enough to get to that next step, wherever it leads. I just think that the bashing of beliefs needs to stop. Unless it is truly dangerous to the mind and body of the person and others here and now in this lifetime, just leave people's beliefs alone.

There are definitely a few beliefs that truly are dangerous to all of us right here and now. We can discuss those later, possibly... but believing that Jesus had something good to teach humanity is not harmful at all. i!t is those who completely ignore or distort those simple truths, and instead focus on dogma and policy and Authoritarian Law, that are a TRUE danger to the future of mankind.

I've got a lot of reading to do, by the way!

[edit on 16-7-2008 by dunwichwitch]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


Yeah, great video.

I think we're on the same page about Jesus. There's a good reason intuitive people like ourselves can't accept Christian orthodoxy. It's based on questionable claims of authenticity that go all the way back to Paul's conflict with the heads of the Jerusalem church, Peter and James.

Check this out:

www.jesuswordsonly.com...

It's based on the most current theological assessments being made by today's scholars. I don't know which denomination or cult this source represents, but its bibliography/footnote source is reputable.

Much of what Christians believe is based on Paul's version of Jesus' teachings. Unfortunately, Paul missed out on ever being educated by Jesus. Paul was in conflict with what the 12 apostles version of Jesus' teachings. Consequently, what became known as Christianity is really not what Jesus or the apostles were teaching. Unfortunately it's hard to figure out what Jesus really taught because all the writings of the Jerusalem church (Ebionites) were burned.

From above source: (Why No Other Ebionite Writings Survived section)

~ We do not know the Ebionites’ true views because we
cannot find the Ebionite works preserved in any library anywhere.
Imperial Rome beginning with Theodosius’ reign
(379-395) outlawed any religion but that of the “bishops of
Rome” (Codex Theod. XVI, I, 2). This was enforced by the
destruction of both public and private libraries in Roman territories.
If any heretical material was found, the owner suffered
the death penalty. This suppression of historical works
was interpreted broadly. For example, in 371, Emperor
Valens ordered troops to remove from private homes at Antioch
(Syria) works on liberal arts and the law, not just heretical
works. “Discouraged and terrorized people all over the eastern
provinces of the Empire, wishing to avoid any possible
suspicion, began to burn their own libraries.” This grew worse under Theodosius. Then in 435 and 438, the emperors of Rome again commanded the public burning of unorthodox books throughout the empire. So effective were these decrees, that there is not one single record written by an Ebionite that we can find preserved anywhere in any library. ~

It is only through the Dead Sea Scrolls and first and second century writings critical of the Ebionites that any records of their beliefs exist. Theologians know this stuff but the Christian status quo are not going to volunteer this information to the common person. So it remains controversial.

If you continue a sincere search for "Christ Consciousness" (I like that terminology too) through prayer with humility, and follow your heart and conscience, you'll come to the truth that's right for you. After all, as according to quantum metaphysics, you attract the level of knowledge (reality) that resonants with your state of mind. Just keep going.

Best wishes.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 



I just think that the bashing of beliefs needs to stop.

Just stop talking about it and you do not have to worry about being bashed.
If you just get in your room and perform some dark arts, or whatever, no one will bother you.
If you want to promote Lucifer, them you may have some problems.
The occult is a deep dark hole that leads to hell, not heaven.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 



Hi dunwichwitch,

I think your gesture is so admirable and interesting, it would be a great thing is any person that for any reason had injured other with so offensive words, or insults of any kind do the same you are doing now.

Pardon is the a very important Law, an a universal one, the nature pardon us when it allow to grow new plants and to flower them on an old battle field.

If you feel better I can receive the part of your excuses that correspond to the Catholics, specially on these dramatic days in which so many people here in ATS are posting terrible insults to such a very important Christian community, even saying that they are pagans and their temples a site of Idolatric practice.

Thanks for your atention,

The Angel of lightness



[edit on 7/16/2008 by The angel of light]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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I feel like I had to apologize to you all because even if I didn't fully speak my mind, I used to feel extreme hatred and prejudice towards Christians, or maybe more so towards myself because I had no solid foundations.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


I do not feel offended, personally by anything you may have written in the past.
I hope you are not offended by what I write.
Lucky for us, we still live in a relatively free country.
Words can be hurtful and I do not mean to hurt you personally.
It is that there is a bigger picture.
The forces of evil are at work in a speeded up way, the further we progress towards a world crisis.
The devil has laid snares, everywhere for the unwary.
Just be careful out there.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 06:31 PM
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Hello everyone.
First off it is very nice to see a thread where everyone is in somewhat agreement and hospitable to one another.
Personally Organized spirituality (religion) isn't for me, but if it is good for another person and helps them, knock your self out. It is pure opinion.

Whatever works for you.

Always remember right and wrong are totally based on the individuals perception of a given situation and their learned behaviors and concepts. Knowing this and always remembering this will allow one to stand taller and embrace people of all faiths and ideas and open themselves to true feelings of understanding and compassion for another, whether or not you truly agree with that person's stance, on a given issue or principle.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


Congrats and hopefully you are feeling a very relieved feeling that comes as you give all to God. I was not at church Sunday because i went to a Catholic wedding Saturday and told my wife i was all god up for the week. I say that so you realize i am in no way a scholar on the bible but i have always recommended people be careful with realigions that only use part of the bible not all of it. I say that because while scanning the posts it sounded as if this branch is implying that we ourself are all God. If thats acurate you may want to read over the ten commandments.

And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I may have misinturpreted this branchs theory, nor am i trying to rain on any parade.

Congrats and may god be with you.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by anotherdad
reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


Congrats and hopefully you are feeling a very relieved feeling that comes as you give all to God. I was not at church Sunday because i went to a Catholic wedding Saturday and told my wife i was all god up for the week. I say that so you realize i am in no way a scholar on the bible but i have always recommended people be careful with realigions that only use part of the bible not all of it. I say that because while scanning the posts it sounded as if this branch is implying that we ourself are all God. If thats acurate you may want to read over the ten commandments.

And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I may have misinturpreted this branchs theory, nor am i trying to rain on any parade.

Congrats and may god be with you.


I am aware of the commandments... but I am also aware that there are many many things that are questionable within the Bible. I would recommend that every religion be met with careful analysis of what is being said, because for every word that Jesus/Mohammad/Buddha/Vishnu/God spoke, there are 100 words that man has spoke in a futile effort to understand without knowing, but with only belief and the interpretation of belief and ego.

This is where we will reach a stalemate in the issue of religion. Religion wants you to submit your responsibility, while untainted spiritual teachings want you to regain responsibility.

This is what I am looking for. If I heard one thing in the word commandment, it is the root word "command", and I do not feel that man must be commanded to submit to anything, but to be allowed to learn morality on his own accord.

I apologize to all religions if I have insulted them, but I still question those who have committed themselves to a set of rules by which to live. The ten commandments, I feel, are rules... where as much of what Jesus is supposed to have said is common sense. The only one who rules over your life is you. You are the God of your own doing... and if you search deep enough, it is much more than just a metaphorical statement.

People would rather submit, and if it helps you become a better person in this life, I support your choice. Sometimes, however, the realization must come. If you submit to a God more powerful then yourself, how many other things will you submit to? How much of your true self have you given away?

I believe Jesus said "Be ye not Gods?"

I could be wrong, but in that case, Jesus has just contradicted the first commandment.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


i dont see that you have anything to apologise for disenting views are always good because it challenges people to think about what they truely believe, as a catholic i am more amused by the cristian/catholic bashing if i can refute their claims i do if i cant i reserch what they are talking about to better understand what they perceive as inconsistancies of my faith.

in actuality im probably more an unorthadox catholic



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


First off i apolagize is i made you feel as if you must defend anything, you do not need to, to me. I ment with my ignorance to your branch of religion being new to it throw up a flag not speak down to. If it came across that way i apologize.

I will say there is nothing in my religion that wants me to submit my "personall "responsability" much the opposite to take on greater personal responsabilty. The better i do for myself the better i can do for other. Learning morality on its own accord is acurate thats why jesus died for our sins, because God knew we could not live up to his image.

You may be missing one key aspect and that is Jesus is god in the flesh. His words are the word of god.

"be ye not gods" is the first commandment.

I got off track and apolagize, to me the great thing about religion is it is a consience decision to make oneself better and do the best to do the same for those around you.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 



I believe Jesus said "Be ye not Gods?"

Notice the question mark.
Jesus was quoting from the old testament to back up an argument he was having with the Jews, concerning his claim of being the son of God.
As for submission, Jesus submitted himself to his higher Authority, to the point of death.
That was how he was able to emerge from death, victorious.
His Father raised him to show His approval of His son.


[edit on 16-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by anotherdad
 



You may be missing one key aspect and that is Jesus is god in the flesh. His words are the word of god.

The second sentence explains the first sentence.
Being in the flesh means he is not God.
The authority of God is in the words of Jesus.
If we do not believe what Jesus says, we do not believe God.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by dunwichwitch
 


As a born-again member of the Christian family, I forgive you freely. Although you did not personally disparage my character in any way, as a Christian, I can speak for all of us, in that, we are all of one mind....Christs. There are those who may read what I write here and suggest that if I were really a Christian that I wouldn't have certain traits or certain behavior problems that I undoubtedly have, to them I would ask for the same forgiveness that i would so freely give to all others, as Jesus did so for me. I have many faults myself, (I can walk on water..........but it has to be frozen, you see) In summation, I feel compelled to remind you that Paul (one of the 12 apostles) was LITERALLY a Christian basher before he became a follower of Jesus. Indeed he was a murderer and persecutor of Christians before he was born-again. His title before his conversion was 'Saul of Tarsus'. I know if Jesus forgave him, he's probably got my back too. He was not only forgiven, but made an example of the true nature and reason that Christ even came, not to save the haughty, not to save the hubris infected "know it all's" but to save the sinners.......or rather colloquially the rest of us who have faults that are seemingly seedy to all of those who judge us without knowing the (as Paul Harvey would say) "the rest of the story".
He even forgave those who were mocking him on the cross stating "Forgive them father for they know not what they do. So you are forgiven in my book, which incidently is THE BOOK. Nice to see someone actually get past their own ego and learn a truth of mankind as opposed to just another point of view. Good Job.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Phenomium]



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by jmdewey60

As for people's beliefs, well, if you want to put them out, you have to expect some questioning.


Maybe so. However, do you honestly believe that any of us are qualified to know what is ultimately true and what's not? I don't.


wait, didn't you post this 2 posts above that question?


Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I tend to agree that Gnostic Christianity is the true faith.. I also feel that people should leave other people's beliefs alone.


so which is it then? either none are qualified and your earlier claim of truth is false, or your latter claim that none are qualified is false...

I know this sounds like I am being mean, but really, these 2 posts contradict each other, and this is one reason that the Bible-believing Christian sometimes seems "exclusionary" (as someone called us earlier)...because Christ said in John 14:6 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Me'.

If one truly believes in Christ, he must truly be THE Truth that He claims for himself. If not, why bother with something so watered down sanitized that it is most likely 'not' truth? Better to just be an agnostic or atheist.

Again, not trying to sound harsh, just a juxtapositional question...

Peace

[edit on 16-7-2008 by TrailGator]



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by dunwichwitch
I feel like I had to apologize to you all because even if I didn't fully speak my mind, I used to feel extreme hatred and prejudice towards Christians, or maybe more so towards myself because I had no solid foundations.


Thanks a whole lot for your honesty. I don't think I ever read your old posts but there plenty more here still at it. The Bible even tells us to expect it. The spirit of the world is too hate spiritual truth. You have really confirmed my suspicions about so much of the bashing and hate that gets posted toward Christianity: "maybe more so towards myself because I had no solid foundations" I was the same way years ago.

Consider getting a good basic foundation on the Bible itself as a starting point before adding a lot of esoteric teaching. While I don't agree with gnosticism, I can see you have made a very real and genuine first step toward truth. The evidence you are genuine is in your humility in making this post. It took courage and a denial of your own ego to do so. It honors you and God.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
The second sentence explains the first sentence.
Being in the flesh means he is not God.
The authority of God is in the words of Jesus.
If we do not believe what Jesus says, we do not believe God.


Yep. I just wanted to add to that. Jesus did not say we were gods. He said "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" Not Jesus' law. Not God's law, but your Law. He was tripping up those who accused him of blasphemy of being hypocritical.

If we were gods, we would not have been thrown out of Eden. Nor would we have been tempted by the serpent to be 'like gods' as promised.

God is not man: "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19

"But I tell you, in this you are not right, for God is greater than man." - Job 33:12



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The second sentence explains the first sentence.
Being in the flesh means he is not God.
The authority of God is in the words of Jesus.
If we do not believe what Jesus says, we do not believe God.


Yep. I just wanted to add to that. Jesus did not say we were gods. He said "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" Not Jesus' law. Not God's law, but your Law. He was tripping up those who accused him of blasphemy of being hypocritical.

If we were gods, we would not have been thrown out of Eden. Nor would we have been tempted by the serpent to be 'like gods' as promised.

God is not man: "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19

"But I tell you, in this you are not right, for God is greater than man." - Job 33:12


As God's "children" we have the potential to be like Him. We were created in his image. We were thrown out of Eden because of Adam's mismanagement of his potential before becoming fully mature (perfect).

There is indeed scripture that supports our divine potential:

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." ~Matt. 5:48

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." ~I John 3:2

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." ~John 14:12

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?" ~I Cor. 3:16

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." ~John 14:20

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons (and daughters) of God to be revealed." ~Rom. 8:19

"Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" ~I Cor. 6:3



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