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First Guantanamo video released

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posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by budski
It may have escaped your notice, but our troops are subject to he geneva convention and other international treaties prohobiting the use of torture.

The geneva convention does not apply to terrorists or anyone who has not signed the geneva conventions. Why is this so hard to understand?




posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:57 PM
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Okay while I do not doubt there are some forms of torture going on there I am not sure I see the “evil” in this video.

I mean seriously what in this video is considered torture? I have seen job interviews that were more torturous than that. The interviewer raising his voice? What video was that in? I did not hear the interviewer raising his voice. I have heard bosses raise their voices more than this guy. Even my wife raises her voice on occasion more than that. Seriously where is the “evil torture” in this video?

As I said I do not doubt many including this kid might have been tortured. But I am certainly not seeing any in this video. In the video I see is a kid who realizes he really screwed up and things are not fun and games anymore and that he is in very serious trouble. I see a kid that is freaking out because he knows life is not some huge game that one can change the rules to anytime things are not going their way.

I wonder why the kid’s shirt was pulled forward over his chest, but I do not see any torture. Anyone claiming they are seeing torture in this video must have had parents who never disciplined them or they are watching another video. If this is the common practice there (which I doubt it is) all this cry of torture is far, far over stated. But I suspect his video is so G rated because it was to be released to the public.

Raist



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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I wonder about the sort of treatment these guys got:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Yeah, not too many people here on ATS weeping over them. I can pretty much guarentee you that they got treated a lot worse before they were executed.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


like that would matter, seeing how the US treats POWs aswell

hopefully one day people who condone these actions will have the liberty to have the same treatment with their families



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Raist
 


Fair comment, but I think that because this is the first snippet of video coming out of gitmo, it has merit - I also don't doubt that there has been a much greater degree of violence meted out to other prisoners.

The other issue for me, is that this is A CHILD who is being "vigorously" questioned.

We're the guys who are supposed to have the moral high ground - anything less than absolute transparency damages our countries.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by bodrul
reply to post by WhatTheory
 


like that would matter, seeing how the US treats POWs aswell

hopefully one day people who condone these actions will have the liberty to have the same treatment with their families


I certainly hope you are not implying that you hope that people who fail to see the torture in this video should later be subjected to (or have their families subjected to) imprisonment? and for what crimes, exactly? the moment you start saying things like "the people who don't demand his release should be thrown in solitary confinement just for a taste of their own medicine", you lose the moral high ground.

if you did not mean that, then I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

also we should all note that children are by no means innocent simply by virtue of their age. at 15, a person is perfectly capable of murder, rape, armed robbery, and almost any other crime known to man. hell, kids much younger have killed people. This kid is being held for a very serious crime, so everyone needs to be very serious with him. he can't be treated like a kid because he's being accused of a crime that is usually involving adults.

this isn't petty theft or vandalism. he is being accused of murder.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by FinalSonicX
 


its more of a sarcastic and real reply mixed.
these people are locked up without a fair trial and most were just handed over by tribal leaders and so on for a quick Buck.

i just find it disgusting that people support detention without a proper trial for pre-longed period of time.

i know i lose the morol high ground but people who support this should feal what its like to be locked up for comiting nothing wrong.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Again I do not doubt there has been torture. Also it is likely this kid might have been subjected to said torture. But I am not seeing “vigorously” questioned anywhere. I see an interrogator who is getting somewhat bored and uninterested in a crying kid. This might be because he is used to vigorously interrogating people and is not able to do so now because the video is intended for release.

If this video is intended for release this is the worst of it I would wager. They are not going to release video that would make them look bad that is for sure. But this kid is getting off way easy even for the charges against him in this interview. A good parent will be more of an interrogator if their child has done something they should not have been doing and the parent is trying to get to the bottom of it. I at this kid’s age would not have been answering someone if I could get in trouble and they were using this guys tone with me. I would not have felt threatened enough to answer the questions.

I am not arguing about that there may or may not be torture used there. I do have a problem with anyone saying there is anything being done wrong in the video. Even if a kid is crying you still ask them the question. Their tears may be nothing more than that they know they are caught and have no way out of the situation, tears of sorrow that they were caught.

This video does not even have the interviewer raising his voice. If anything he changes the pitch and tone to inflect a “what are you babbling about” sort of thing but he is not raising his voice. As for this being just a child, well I already stated that if you ask super nice most kids will never admit to their wrong doings. From what I can see this kid is being treated pretty good, at least in this video. Anything after or before this video I know nothing about so I cannot comment on. But this video speaks a thousand words of the kind treatment the kid is getting. If everyone asking me about the stuff I did wrong at his age spoke to me like this I would never have gotten into trouble. It would have been easy to lie my way out of people with such weak voiced directed toward me. Torture being done that might be, but this most certainly is not torture.

Do you remember being a kid at this age and how you would respond to someone asking you questions about your wrong doings like this interviewer? How would you respond to them? In my opinion this interviewer does an excellent job of maintaining his composer in this interview. This again might be because the video is meant for release.

Raist



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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you're spot on Raist. there are probably instances of torture in every prison, and especially in places like Gitmo. but Gitmo is such a mystery that we can't make any solid claims or hold any trials for the torturers without some sort of evidence, and this "evidence" shows nothing but a kid crying and a rather calm and collected person asking him some questions and offering him something to eat (and giving him some time to relax).

and I most certainly do not support prolonged imprisonment without a trial for anyone except prisoners of war. we don't know the whole story, but it's entirely possible that this kid is indeed a prisoner of war (he is certainly accused of a crime that would make him an enemy combatant). I find the circumstances highly suspicious. what was such a young Canadian kid doing in Afghanistan without his parents? why was he accused of throwing a grenade that killed a soldier? I honestly have no idea but the circumstances certainly make him a suspect.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by FinalSonicX
you're spot on Raist. there are probably instances of torture in every prison, and especially in places like Gitmo. but Gitmo is such a mystery that we can't make any solid claims or hold any trials for the torturers without some sort of evidence, and this "evidence" shows nothing but a kid crying and a rather calm and collected person asking him some questions and offering him something to eat (and giving him some time to relax).

and I most certainly do not support prolonged imprisonment without a trial for anyone except prisoners of war. we don't know the whole story, but it's entirely possible that this kid is indeed a prisoner of war (he is certainly accused of a crime that would make him an enemy combatant). I find the circumstances highly suspicious. what was such a young Canadian kid doing in Afghanistan without his parents? why was he accused of throwing a grenade that killed a soldier? I honestly have no idea but the circumstances certainly make him a suspect.
exactly my point he is a prisoner of war ..just like in world war 2 where p.o.w's where kept in camps or forced labour camps for up to 6 yrs....only the worst of the p.o.w's where brought to trial for war crimes....



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory
Well with that attitude I am not going to read it. I'm sure it just more dribble. You call my questions ignorant yet you have to link to a different thread to supposedly answer them. We are talking about this current article in this current thread so take your faux outrage elsewhere please.


Woah there. That quite literally IS the definition of ignorance.
Careful man.


Apart from that.

Yes, the video hardly shows any wrong doing. But in the article, it does state the reason he is emotionally breaking down is because they intentionally deprived him of sleep for quite some time.

Now, of course that isn't torture, but it's hardly due process either.
Is it worthy of persocution? Mmm, no not really. It is however, an issue to be repaired, and measures installed to ensure it doesn't continue.

Now, the video is from the angle of the rather friendly talks they have with detainees. It's a rather ancient method, we call it "good cop bad cop". The bad cop roughs you up a bit, and then the bad cop plays nice and tells you if you tell him what he wants to know, you don't have to go back to bad cop.

Well, this is clearly from the "good cop" side of the interrogation.

The torture isn't being conducted during the interrogations, it's conducted while they are in their cells, and what happens outside of questioning.

It's all done to make the prisoner feel that they like the interrogators. Cause they're treated much better in interrogation than they are anywhere else.
Hence, they are more likely to open up to the interrogators.

The downside to this, is the prisoner is more likely to lie, just to tell the interrogator what he wants to hear, to avoid having to leave interrogation again, and return to his cell where he will be tortured.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by johnsky]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by budski

Laughably, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, some US officials in this report still insist that all prisoners are treated humanely.

I guess it depends on the persons definition of humane really...

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)


For reference, you can look at how the communist government in China publicly denies or evades scrutiny for torture, slave labor, live organ snatching, and political execution. I've been involved in this type of human rights work in years past, and this "treated humanely" comment looks remarkably similar. When they start claiming that G'tmo is a "re-education through labor" facility rather than a prison, you'll know their pr is in full spin.

I should mention though, that China enslaves its own innocent people in labor camps, far more than suspected prisoners of war, a different situation entirely.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by HaveYouConsidered?]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by budski


OK, some will argue that if he's old enough to throw a grenade, then he's old enough to come in for a little rough treatment - but let's not forget that this is a 15 year old kid at the time of his arrest, and that if ALL video's were released, this would seem like a walk in the park in comparison to some of the treatment meted out.

Laughably, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, some US officials in this report still insist that all prisoners are treated humanely.

I guess it depends on the persons definition of humane really...

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)


I cant believe that you are sympathetic to these terrorist dirt bags. They blow up innocent women and children daily all over the world. This kid obviously was seen throwing a grenade at a U.S. soldier and he should be locked up for life for doing so. I don't care one dam bit if he is crying.

Over there in the hell called the mid-east they are teaching babies 3 years old and on to hate the U.S., Shoot AK's and RPG's and I don't see you saying one thing about that.

This kid was a brainwashed fool who in there world is old enough to fight and die like a man so we should treat them the same way. Its because the U.S. troops had hearts that he is even alive so what is your point.

Your sick and I hope you end up in a terrorist prison soon for being on the wrong side pal.

These terrorist are the farthest from Humane and they do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us alone getting a day in court.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by rcwj75
 


How about you people that think this kid is already guilty, without a trial, tell me why it has taken 6 YEARS to give him a trial?

Come on this is the almight america where truth and justice is suppose to be top priority.

This kid was found in the rubble of a bombed out building. He was NOT see throwing the grenade.

So what is the justification for holding the people in the Cuban prison for YEARS without even charges being brought?

Has the all powerful usa become so scared that the lock up people for just suspicions now?
The usa's greed and fear is what is bringing their own country down.
I'm sitting back and loving every minute of the usa's FALL.
Jobs being lost, homes being lost. I love it!!

You lock up teenagers without charges and without a trial.
Your own millitary is guilty of torture, rape and brutal murders.

How can the usa say they are better than any terrorist country when you are now doing the EXACT SAME THING AS THE TERRORIST COUNTRIES!?!?!?!?!

Ah but that kid wasn't a white christian american was he? Therefore he must be guilty after all the US would never ever torture, render, abduct, abuse, hold without trial anybody would they. Ooops sorry I forgot. The US will do anything to a slimy horrible terrorist brown muslim cos they deserve it don't they?

The ignorant racist hatred shown here is why the US is despised around the world.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


He was in Afghanistan because his father brought him there when he was 9.


In the interrogation room, Omar's interviewer grew displeased with his level of cooperation. He summoned several MPs, who chained Omar tightly to an eye bolt in the center of the floor. Omar's hands and feet were shackled together; the eye bolt held him at the point where his hands and feet met. Fetally positioned, he was left alone for half an hour.



Upon their return, the MPs uncuffed Omar's arms, pulled them behind his back and recuffed them to his legs, straining them badly at their sockets. At the junction of his arms and legs he was again bolted to the floor and left alone.



the MPs returned, forced Omar onto his knees, and cuffed his wrists and ankles together behind his back. This made his body into a kind of bow, his torso convex and rigid, right at the limit of its flexibility. The force of his cuffed wrists straining upward against his cuffed ankles drove his kneecaps into the concrete floor.



An hour or two later they came back, checked the tautness of his chains and pushed him over on his stomach.



The MPs returned, mocked him for a while and then poured pine-oil solvent all over his body. Without altering his chains, they began dragging him by his feet through the mixture of urine and pine oil. Because his body had been so tightened, the new motion racked it. The MPs swung him around and around, the piss and solvent washing up into his face. The idea was to use him as a human mop. When the MPs felt they'd successfully pretended to soak up the liquid with his body, they uncuffed him and carried him back to his cell. He was not allowed a change of clothes for two days.



Would you consider that torture or just enhanced interrogation techniques. Keep in mind that the people asking the questions in the video are Canadian CSIS agents not Americans. They aren't there to torture the kid. It's also only ten minute clip from a seven and a half hour video but you knew that right? The entire video is being released this week.

Oh and as for the claim that he threw the grenade.


The defence made public two documents in a U.S. military war crimes court showing that the on-scene commander altered official documents recounting the events of July 27, 2002, when Khadr was arrested in Afghanistan following a firefight with U.S. forces.



The tribunal heard that in one official report dated July 28, 2002, the commander "Lieut. Col. W" wrote that the person who threw the grenade at Sgt. Christopher Speer had died, which would rule out Khadr as the suspect.

Yet, in a near-identical report written two months later, but also dated July 28, the commander changed a single line to read the grenade thrower did not die.


Oh and to skywatcher, had a heart eh?


When the witness stopped and ducked at one corner of the alley, he heard a man moaning near the back of the compound. When the dust cleared, he saw the man lying near him — he was still moving, and an AK-47 rifle lay beside him. OC-1 shot the man in the head, killing him.



When the dust rose from that shot, the witness saw another person sitting up against the brush, facing away from him. It was Mr. Khadr.

OC-1 shot Mr. Khadr twice in the back.


Heart eh? Whatever.



[edit on 15-7-2008 by GAOTU789]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Wait a sec... killing an enemy soldier in a firefight in a war now qualifies, by our definition, as a war crime?

Eh?

No wonder nobody takes us seriously



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Raist
 


...this is A CHILD who is being "vigorously" questioned.



He's lucky his throat wasn't vigorously cut right there in the street instead of packed up and shipped out.

It doesn't surprise me he's Canadian, just like it wouldn't surprise me to hear some of the people here at ATS are worried this could happen to them...feeling nervous?



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by Sky watcher
 


Take a look back on page one, read the links I provided.

This sort of behaviour from the coalition does nothing except breed more "terrorists"

Perhaps if we in the west hadn't been interfering in their countries and trying to steal their resources for so long, there wouldn't BE any "terrorists"

As for your remark that I am sick, I'd suggest a look at the bigger picture here, instead of listening only to the false accusations made by shrub&co.

In the meantime, I'd suggest an apology might be in order - I didn't insult you, and I see no reason why you should insult me merely for discussing something the shrub administration has already admitted to.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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originally posted by skywatcher

This kid obviously was seen throwing a grenade at a U.S. soldier and he should be locked up for life for doing so.


Got anything to back that up son. I have defence reports that say he wasn't seen throwing the grenade, it was assumed it was him. Want to prove that wrong. The prosecution would be happy to have your evidence if you could.


These terrorist are the farthest from Humane and they do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us alone getting a day in court.



Thats a pretty twisted worldview. I'm so glad that that mentality is in the minority amongst your countrymen.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by GAOTU789
 


can I get a source for that information?



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