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So because I dont believe this guys story with no evidence, that makes me a CIA , NSA, FBI operative

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posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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I would like to make a quote here. The truth sometimes is the one that is hardest to believe. "

"Truth is Stranger Than Fiction-"

The Closer you get to what the hidden truth is, the less believable it is, and you risk you credibility. So it's a catch 22." - Hidden Truth, Forbidden Knowledge, Page 240 -Steven Greer




posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by NightVision

Originally posted by jritzmann

If it's regarding the Meier case? It's nothing but comedy to begin with...it definitely ain't UFOlogy.


Comedy or not, it kinda makes you and Vaeni look like amateurish kids toying around in a garage giggling about with your wigs and rayguns, rather than the educated UFOlogists you present yourselves to be. It helps to keep the UFOlogy pot nice and muddied.(Which is why I am suggesting a forum split in the 1st place) I'm not turning this into a Billy Meier thread. Your time is probably better spent on more current UFO analysis. Just my 2 cents.


Oh gimme a break. If you don't have a sense of humor in this crapfest from time to time you lose your mind. I'm human, the Meier case is a joke, and I've every right to laugh. (The film project is not mine, it's Jeremy's. I did however help with the Photoshop work on the Poster.)

I work my collective fingers to the bone in this field, so you'll pardon me if I take offense at your ignorance.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by danx
 



Regardless of the software implications or the workload for the mods, you don't agree it would be a good idea?


I have wanted a new forum for a while, despite any extra work. But I don't think you could then split the UFO forum again after that, into videos and reported data or something. You reach a point where further splitting is useless, that's what threads are for.

And as has been mentioned, every new forum means more out of place threads that have to be moved. And every thread moved means a mod has to deal with another three or four U2Us explaing it, or calming angry members. Not to mention that for every new forum there's an increase in complaints telling us a thread is in the wrong forum, over half of which are not true but still have to be investigated.

Yeah, a new forum is a big deal, but even so, like I said earlier, Reptilians are never wrong.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann
[
Oh gimme a break. If you don't have a sense of humor in this crapfest from time to time you lose your mind. I'm human, the Meier case is a joke, and I've every right to laugh. (The film project is not mine, it's Jeremy's. I did however help with the Photoshop work on the Poster.)

I work my collective fingers to the bone in this field, so you'll pardon me if I take offense at your ignorance.


Thats interesting. When anyone has a laugh at your expense, you take offense and shout "Ignorance!". In fact, I'm laughing right now. I hope you don't take offense. If you don't have a sense of humor in this crapfest from time to time you lose your mind.


"Vaeni:

Stuff I Don't Like
People further muddying the already muddy waters of ufology/esoteric issues with...uuuuuh....mud."




[edit on 15-7-2008 by NightVision]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by NightVision
 


Nice. You wanted to give me grief, ya get called on it and now it's a joke.

Another reason I don't partake on message boards anymore. Another on ignore.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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Actually you do partake in message boards. You're doing it right now. You've been doing it just like me for a while now. My posts could hardly be considered greif worthy. Do you have to take offense to everything? I have to be honest, its a little unsettling. Most people respond well to positive criticism. But if you want to derail this thread further, be my guest.





[edit on 15-7-2008 by NightVision]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:02 PM
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and now a word from our sponsors.



there will be no more personal insults or bickering. the topic is "so because I don't believe this guy's story with no evidence, that makes me a CIA, NSA, FBI operative"

Let's stick to that topic and not resort to childish attacks. Attack the topic, not the poster.

and now back to our regularly scheduled programming.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by autowrench
The real problem is that for a true skeptic, no proof is enough, and for someone who has experienced a UFO first hand, no more proof is necessary. I have seen many threads derailed because the skeptics attacted it like it was poison. This effect happens in most all conspiracy type forums.


Quote for truth. I gave you a star, I can't believe you haven't received more.

[edit on 7/15/2008 by Spoodily]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by NightVision
 


I'll tell you whats "unsettling"

"Comedy or not, it kinda makes you and Vaeni look like amateurish kids toying around in a garage giggling about with your wigs and rayguns, rather than the educated UFOlogists you present yourselves to be. It helps to keep the UFOlogy pot nice and muddied."

The above being put forth and then called a joke. Thats unsettling. Derail of a thread or not, I don't tolerate that kind of nonsense.

Btw, this member I believe has recently been banned from my site, hence his b-line to me in this thread to chuck his insults.

Sorry for the off topic shenanigans.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by jritzmann


The above being put forth and then called a joke. Thats unsettling. Derail of a thread or not, I don't tolerate that kind of nonsense.

Btw, this member I believe has recently been banned from my site, hence his b-line to me in this thread to chuck his insults.

Sorry for the off topic shenanigans.



You have a website? I honestly didn't know you had one.

And please...do not label me as having insulted you. Its simply a false and unnecessary accusation.


JRitz: I highly recommend taking Crackeurs suggestion and just letting it go.



[edit on 15-7-2008 by NightVision]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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As I have said on here before, just because someone is accused of being a disinfo agent does not mean they are being accused of being a "secret gov't" agent.
Truth is, there are millions of disinfo agents in this country. The majority do so unknowingly, which makes them much more affective. Think about it. If enough citizens pass false information that they heard on FOX news, does that not mean they are passing disinfo? And if you hear something over and over from friends, family and co-workers, are you not much more likely to believe it than if George W. says it?
It's just another angle.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by SaviorComplex
With some people, it does not matter how well-reasoned or respectful your response is. They will not accept it, and attack you personally, in the guise of exposing you as a "disinfo agent" or "pseudoskeptic." Instead of debating your point, they want to to discuss who you are or your motivation. In essence, shouting you down so they can shut down debate.


Well that is an interesting observation... I wonder if I look through a few threads if I can find skeptics using those exact tactics? I bet it would only take a few minutes to find a lot


This works both ways... I lost count of how many 'skeptics' have resorted to name calling... so I wonder why it comes as a surprise to you to be called names? Seems to me "disinfo agent" or "pseudoskeptic." is not as bad as "moron" "idiot" "Learite" or worse..

Fortunately the Mods do try to keep a lid on that but seems some 'slips through'

I would definitely say its tactics... People like ArMaP amd Internos use documentation and hard evidence to 'debunk' things... these I call 'fair skeptics' but there are so many 'skeptics' that do exactly what you complain against shout you down, call names and constantly use that "burden of proof' thing...

A few other tactics (not counting the Trolls bringing in their friends) is hounding someone by harassing them in every thread, posting pages of BS just to bury a post etc...

I never understood the need of these types to enter into a thread that they obviously hate... just never made sense to me...

The ones that get me are the ones who have the "Saviour Complex" the "Defenders of Truth" but more likely than not the only "truth" they defend is their own version



[edit on 15-7-2008 by zorgon]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by JH80



I was labeled a "disinfo agent" for suggesting that the Lake Erie "UFOs" were planes. I provided photographs showing planes in the distance that looked remarkably like the "UFOs" filmed over Lake Erie.



Just for the record anyone who has been around fighter jets would be able to tell you in an instant that the lights filmed over Lake Erie were just afterburners from an F-16

and what I want to know is. why is working for the government always a bad thing? I personally am in the military (USAF none the less, hence the sn) and sorry to say, I have never kidnapped eyewitnesses to UFOs, I have never collected dead alien bodies, or covered up an alien spacecraft. These people who thinking we are all bad guys need to sit down with a service member or government entity and have a chit-chat, communication is key here folks.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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I think you make a good point here. If an alien were to sit next to a skeptic, they would still not believe it.


LOL, see that is the problem some people on here would believe it is an alien even if it was a guy dressed in an alien suit. I would ask it if I could test it. Take some video. If it had DNA I would find out how it was different. I would ask it for some info about the solar system/universe that could be proved but we currently dont know. I WOULD ASK IT FOR SOME PROOF NOT JUST BELIEVE BLINDLY.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by Sandals24
Investigations need to be un bias otherwise they hold no weight, just because someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt mean they are working for the Government..


So which branch DO YOU work for? I mean there are so many these days and now we even have Space Spooks
Now can you prove to me that you are NOT a "Disinfo Agent"? All we have is YOUR WORD that you are not...



And therein lies the problem...

In a court of law, if a single person says he saw you kill someone... and swears its the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... chances are good that along with other circumstantial evidence...

YOU ARE GUILTY... I mean why would that citizen lie?

Yet here someone comes and swears on his mothers grave that he saw a UFO, or a Black Ops plane while on duty, or was abducted by an Alien...

How long does it take before the ridicule and the attacks and demands for 'proof' start?

Lets take an hypothetical example...

Some "Joe" worked at Lockheed Martin and saw an anti gravity drive unit inside a plane made by us...

He quits or is fired and now wants to tell someone...

However...
IF he tells someone and gives his name rank and serial number he is violating federal law and CAN go to prison for treason...

IF he took a photo of it with his cell phone or took a paper out of the trash... same thing... he can expect a one way ticket to that nice vacation village at Gitmo...

Now he hears about ATS... he is under the impression that here of all places he will find people that will listen to him...

But does that happen? NO He is automatically branded a hoaxer by many that make it their 'mission' to debunk everyone that walks in the door... heck its almost like a pack of vultures at the entry to Death Valley...

IF that person shows credential... they are hounded and dragged over the coals... not stone unturned tearing apart those credential... the amount of effort expended in this is quite astounding to me...

People here cry "Deny Ignorance"...

Most of the time that translates to "If you don't belief main stream you ARE ignorant" Funny how it is mostly skeptics that use this rally cry... but in a recent thread where I presented a NOVA program interviewing those "Secret Astronauts" that we have been talking about with much ridicule... all of a sudden the skeptics were silent... Not one 'man' enough to say "Oh you were right..." Nice way to "Deny Ignorance" slink out the door hope no one sees you


People here call out for disclosure "Why do those on the 'inside' not speak up?" Well any TRUE insider only needs to spend a few weeks here to see the reactions to a story...

Ask yourself this... IF YOU had a story to tell... would YOU feel comfortable putting it on the table here knowing that since the holes they drilled in your head have healed you have no proof?

So what you get is the hoaxers, the attention seekers and others who pray on the gullible and once in a while a genuine story comes along... and like the boy who cried wolf... it is lost in the noise

I do find it amazing though how many flags and pages some threads get on nothing

Bottom line is there is no disclosure here... only debate about it
There is no proof here... because if there WAS proof the person holding that proof would be calling CNN or selling it to the highest bidder... so all we can hope for is circumstantial evidence and a good story

As far as UFO's go... I have my own 'data' which I use to compare stories... I would rather listen to a good eyewitness than waste hours pouring over photos and videos that even the dumbest kid with a good computer can create these days... and if I provided them with my 'list' :LOL: they would make some dandy ones

So all we have here is debate... more debate and when that wears down the tempers flare and the insults fly

I come here because once in a while there is a good story... and I can follow a trail... and that has led to many doors...

But this also comes at a price... sometimes you are told things you cannot repeat... and believe me that sucks big time



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by NGC2736
Here's my personal perspective.



And debunking is an art form here. A person comes to ATS with a crazy story because he can't go public/mainstream. And the reason he can't is because the skeptics out there will label him nuts the minute he opens his mouth. So we provide a sanctuary where he can safely tell his story, no matter how odd, and feel reasonably safe from labels and gang tactics. You can still debunk his story, but you can't do it by calling the person crazy, or verbally attacking him. What's so difficult about being civil? What's so hard about reading the OP, deciding it's not for you, and moving on to something more interesting?

But some here have made it a lifes work to build their ego base on how many times they can be first to yell "hoax" on something. Others "attack post" like a starved German Shepherd going after a tasty postman. And still others, a minority, express their opinion calmly and go about their business. Guess who is seen as the smartest and best adjusted and most mature out of these different styles?

The ego "trippers" feel good about themselves for being first in a race only they percieve, which makes it a Special Olympics event, only they don't know it. The "mad dogs" get to bask in their macho image, but never realize they look like a '50s teenager with greased back hair and a tough expression. And the "educated" poster gets to choose whats worth looking at, what isn't, and doesn't waste his time on trivia, while looking cool and urbane.

The choice is yours. But just like every crowd, it doesn't take long to sort out the people worth being around from those you write off as blowhards.


very well put, ngc; too often it is the language and the manner of the reply/question/demand that is out of context and tends to rub the wrong way; the sharing of a personal experience should be taken as just that, and be studied and decided upon individually, not vehemently and accompanied by insults and name calling; sure, some people make fantastic claims just to stir everyone up, and those are not difficult to weed out and ignore; but constant demands for proof of an event from the past or making statements about delusional tendecies/ behaviors are not necessary, and if you cannot debate without mud-slinging then that thread or post is not worthy of debate or my time, and occasional use of the ignore feature makes the insults diminish rapidly.

just my 2 cents



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 

as usual good work and thoughts, Zorgon; everyone yammering for disclosure seems to miss the concept that revealing anything deemed classified is an act of treason and carries some hefty penalties; but then again it's not their tail feathers singeing over the flames......





posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 07:15 PM
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i think most people who say these kind of things , get frustrated when the op doesn't absorb any of the points being made, or vice versa. or if there is certain evidence that is very clear to someone , and makes sense completely but then the op doesn't see it . The person then gets pissed at the op questioning his intelligence, saying somehting like " how could you not realize what is going on , you must be truly stupid , or work for the government." when it is simply individual opinions, if you truly believe in something , and i truly believe in something it is very unlikely that convincing you is a waste of time , unless i have factual evidence that cannot be denied. Otherwise let the people have their own opinions.though it is hard when your in the heat of an argument, and lose it based on someone's ignorance , or not accepting what you have to say.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by NGC2736
 


A most intelligent post, thank you. I have problems with people who follow me from thread to thread attacking me even when i post a comment on someone else's thread. I post tons of evidence, mostly pictures, but i also post comments made by scientists and philosophers. These people disrupt the threads with their bad attitudes and take the fun out of communicating with others. As the OP i have to suffer through their snide comments and insults and am penalized if i respond in a comeback. I think people should have to be the OP on at least two successful threads before they are allowed to comment on others work. Your truth's do not outweigh "my truth's, nor your facts, mine." Just because someone post's what they consider definitive proof that the OP is wrong does not mean the OP has to accept it. That is what the debate is for. I post images that 95% of the people can't see, but i post for the 5 % who can. Most respond on u2u because they don't want to be harassed, that is wrong. It is censorship at its worst I do think moderators who monitor the threads should issue private warnings to these people who never ask questions and generally have no concept what the thread is about. I really like that "stick to the topic" and "off topic deleted"



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by azzllin
Perhaps it is the manner in which you disagree?


With some people, it does not matter how well-reasoned or respectful your response is. They will not accept it, and attack you personally, in the guise of exposing you as a "disinfo agent" or "pseudoskeptic." Instead of debating your point, they want to to discuss who you are or your motivation. In essence, shouting you down so they can shut down debate.


the only time I get suspicious is when folks try to pry personal info out of a poster...thats not cool...debate and inquiry is constructive and should take place - the last time I brought this point up on a recent thread the offending person made the most disgusting comments in response - all he had to do was say - "sorry - didn't mean anything by asking" but instead tried to derail the thread and went after me like a house on fire...

Also it seems that some folk prefer sarcasm and personal attack to debate...so that can be seen as less than polite inquiry....




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