So because I dont believe this guys story with no evidence, that makes me a CIA , NSA, FBI operative

It seems nowadays on ATS whenever somebody doesnt belive something or are sceptical they must be working for the government or secret government!! That is complete B/S No wonder people think 911, Aliens etc is a Joke!!!!

You can't try and prove something to be true if you act like a child and cry "they must be working for the government" everytime somebody cites a lack of evidence!!

Im open minded I would love Aliens to be Real.

Doesnt mean im gonna listen to some guy telling me he has seen a living engine with absoultly no proof????

Investigations need to be un bias otherwise they hold no weight, just because someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt mean they are working for the Government..

Grow up...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

vent over.....

anyone agree or disagree?

I agree... that you are a disinfo propagandist!!!!!

Just kidding, I hear where you are coming from.

I think in general, there is a lack of real debate here.

Someone posts a topic and some people already know about it and agree. And if you attempt to start a debate, you get labeled as anyone of the names people call each other here: "Ignorant" "Close minded" "Government Agent" Or people say, "You don't believe in this so why are you here? If you don't agree why don't you go to another thread? You're determined not to believe this? Etc."

Think twice before you post stuff like that, people.

The dissenting opinions are important.

Originally posted by Sandals24
It seems nowadays on ATS whenever somebody doesnt belive something or are sceptical they must be working for the government or secret government!! That is complete B/S No wonder people think 911, Aliens etc is a Joke!!!!

You can't try and prove something to be true if you act like a child and cry "they must be working for the government" everytime somebody cites a lack of evidence!!

Im open minded I would love Aliens to be Real.

Doesnt mean im gonna listen to some guy telling me he has seen a living engine with absoultly no proof????

Investigations need to be un bias otherwise they hold no weight, just because someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt mean they are working for the Government..

Grow up...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

vent over.....

anyone agree or disagree?

IF you debunk something providing FACTS, then no one can call you "dis-info", because the facts speak by themselves.
OF course if someone comes here and claims to have been "channelled" by some pleyadeans, well, i can't help. IN all honesty, in my humble opinion, all that stuff should be trashed one minute after the OP, but i can't decide and ATS ALLOWS them: i disagree, but this stuff is allowed so we have to choose between to FACE it or to IGNORE it and carry on.
So the only way that we have is to fight with the strenght of reason, logic and common sense. And facts.While to call someone retarded or attention seeker is offensive, to call someone "disinfo-agent" is NOT; so this is basically a match that we start playing with an handicap, like some Golf Pro players.
Are you scared by this heat? I am not so far... well, im getting tired, but i still don't want to give UP. Even ATS has been blamed to be controlled by some mysterious government agency, it has happened because a guy made an april fool and someone else did NOT check the mushroomsh that she was putting in her pizza.


[edit on 15/7/2008 by internos]

The real problem is that for a true skeptic, no proof is enough, and for someone who has experienced a UFO first hand, no more proof is necessary. I have seen many threads derailed because the skeptics attacted it like it was poison. This effect happens in most all conspiracy type forums.

Originally posted by autowrench
The real problem is that for a true skeptic, no proof is enough, and for someone who has experienced a UFO first hand, no more proof is necessary. I have seen many threads derailed because the skeptics attacted it like it was poison. This effect happens in most all conspiracy type forums.

Conversely, I feel as though I am not even allowed to ask one question or make one dissenting point. Without people attacking me as though the burden of proof were on anyone but the person who stated the thread. I feel like this derails threads.

I am not a skeptic really. I don't demand proof. Just good testimony at the very least. Its a burden of credibility really, not proof. But remember the burden is on the person making claims. It is not up to others to disprove anything, it is up to the original poster to weather the critics and skeptics and be a good sport. If he answers questions and responds forthrightly to criticism, then his testimony will be much more believable.

Originally posted by Sandals24
It seems nowadays on ATS whenever somebody doesnt belive something or are sceptical they must be working for the government or secret government!! That is complete B/S No wonder people think 911, Aliens etc is a Joke!!!!

Oh, and don't forget that you are a pseudoskeptic, debunker, etc and are only allowed to debate in a certain way (ie; not at all).

Its funny no-one appears to disagree yet, thanks for the responses...

Be warned though...... you have all fallen for my Pseudosceptic trap!!, Because you agree with me I have now exposed all of you as the true disinfo agents that you really are!!!!!!!!!!!!

HA HA HA HA

But seriously I bet I still get accused of it everytime I disagree with something!!

Perhaps it is the manner in which you disagree? you said that you where accused of being a disinfo agent , because someone said they had seen a living engine? and you cant accept that?

Yet is not your body a living engine? is not all life a kind of living engine of some kind? you exist, if your body is not a living engine what is it?

You can't try and prove something to be true if you act like a child and cry "they must be working for the government" everytime somebody cites a lack of evidence!!

I agree. It's a very bad practice.

I was labeled a "disinfo agent" for suggesting that the Lake Erie "UFOs" were planes. I provided photographs showing planes in the distance that looked remarkably like the "UFOs" filmed over Lake Erie.

Some suggested there was a likeness because I had filmed real UFOs without knowing it... "UFOs" that happened to be landing at an airport? No way.

Can't attack the claim? Attack the person making the claim. Solved.

Response to AZZLLIN



this is exactly what I mean, perhaps its just a language thing?

I didn't believe the story i was refering to was true. If there is some kind of evidence other than some guy saying

"I saw this in area 51 when i was younger in a hanger.. blah blah"

then fair enough....

as there wasnt I reserve the right to say that i dont believe it....

Its not about me.. not accepting it??!

to "not accept it" would imply that it is true and im just being stubborn ,arguing for the sake of it etc...

However with no evidence it could just be someone lying!

Show me some evidence then i would accept it, with out that I am just going to not believe this particular persons story.

I am not saying living engines cant exist, (good point about the body) i just dont believe this guys story.

I hope you understand waht i mean and that doesnt sound to jumbled..........


[edit on 15-7-2008 by Sandals24]

[edit on 15-7-2008 by Sandals24]

Originally posted by azzllin
Perhaps it is the manner in which you disagree?

With some people, it does not matter how well-reasoned or respectful your response is. They will not accept it, and attack you personally, in the guise of exposing you as a "disinfo agent" or "pseudoskeptic." Instead of debating your point, they want to to discuss who you are or your motivation. In essence, shouting you down so they can shut down debate.

Originally posted by internos
IF you debunk something providing FACTS, then no one can call you "dis-info", because the facts speak by themselves.

I agree thats the way it *should* be, but more often then not it won't matter. I've had dozens accuse me of being a Govt. planted debunker over the past 20 years.

Remember what I said about evidence? No matter how good it is, 1/2 the people will believe it and 1/2 won't. Same goes the other way around, no matter how good your evidence of prosaic explanations are - 1/2 will get it and 1/2 won't (for those interested in a particular case).

Again, as I've written here and elsewhere, too many people are married to their own "evidence" and theory. It's time to divorce it. We don't KNOW anything about what we're dealing with. Everyone is guessing. Odds are no one is right.

The sooner everyone gets that, the better we can move forward in other directions.

Regardless of what you are called here on ATS it is a great site for intellectual (sometimes)debate amongst peers.

Originally posted by Sandals24
It seems nowadays on ATS whenever somebody doesnt belive something or are sceptical they must be working for the government or secret government!! That is complete B/S No wonder people think 911, Aliens etc is a Joke!!!!

You can't try and prove something to be true if you act like a child and cry "they must be working for the government" everytime somebody cites a lack of evidence!!

What you all have failed to observe is that Sandals24 works for the NRO. Notice he cleverly left that agency out of his thread title. Classic disinfo. reverse psychology.

Don't be fooled!

Originally posted by Sandals24
Grow up...

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

vent over.....

anyone agree or disagree?

i agree and disagree.

i agree insomuch that i concur that there are ppl that get a bit carried away.

i disagree that this is such a norm on here that it is something to be this upset over.

i have found that a little honey works best when dealing w/ those who otherwise seem unreasonable.

everyone wants to be listened to and heard. there are quite a few on here who will at first seem to be unreasonable, but mostly that is because they have been pushed into a corner of defensiveness and don't realize at first that an opposing position is not always meant to be taken as someone trying to make them feel ashamed.

anyway........ my opinion, for what it's worth

Here's my personal perspective.

internos my friend, we both know that a lot of these threads are pure crap. But if we have a board of "deciders", people that choose which threads should stay, and which should go, then where are we any more open than the alphabet agencies with all their secrets? If mods start trashing threads based on their own opinions, then what does that do to you having the freedom to decide for yourself? Do any of you want someone else to decide for you? Do you really trust a small group to weed out only the garbage?

And debunking is an art form here. A person comes to ATS with a crazy story because he can't go public/mainstream. And the reason he can't is because the skeptics out there will label him nuts the minute he opens his mouth. So we provide a sanctuary where he can safely tell his story, no matter how odd, and feel reasonably safe from labels and gang tactics. You can still debunk his story, but you can't do it by calling the person crazy, or verbally attacking him. What's so difficult about being civil? What's so hard about reading the OP, deciding it's not for you, and moving on to something more interesting?

But some here have made it a lifes work to build their ego base on how many times they can be first to yell "hoax" on something. Others "attack post" like a starved German Shepherd going after a tasty postman. And still others, a minority, express their opinion calmly and go about their business. Guess who is seen as the smartest and best adjusted and most mature out of these different styles?

The ego "trippers" feel good about themselves for being first in a race only they percieve, which makes it a Special Olympics event, only they don't know it. The "mad dogs" get to bask in their macho image, but never realize they look like a '50s teenager with greased back hair and a tough expression. And the "educated" poster gets to choose whats worth looking at, what isn't, and doesn't waste his time on trivia, while looking cool and urbane.

The choice is yours. But just like every crowd, it doesn't take long to sort out the people worth being around from those you write off as blowhards.

I was actually called someone who worked for THEM! I forget what post it was, but I asked a question (relating to proof and/or evidence). I wrote a response to the Walton case because the people who believe it kept stating the 6 friends witnessed the whole thing. They had only seen a light, and when Travis fell down, they drove away, not witnessing the actual abduction. I was ignored until the regular skeptic brought up the same point.
On the other hand I experienced an OBE which I cannot physically prove. I accept that people will not believe it and welcome their questions/thoughts. In other words, ask the questions, ask for evidence and proof. It does not diminish the case when asking for it. Doesn't everyone want an answer from believer to skeptic?

(Reply to NGC2736's post)

Could we have it set up in a way where it is put to a vote of peers as to whether or not a "crap/bogus tread gets deleted. That way the forum moderators and site owners are free from persecution from members thinking that they are wielding too much power and the "who decides" part is left to the general/regular members.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by QBSneak000]

[edit on 15-7-2008 by QBSneak000]

Originally posted by QBSneak000
(Reply to NGC2736's post)

Could we have it set up in a way where it is put to a vote of peers as to whether or not a "crap/bogus tread gets deleted. That way the forum moderators and site owners are free from persecution from members thinking that they are wielding too much power and the "who decides" part is left to the general/regular members.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by QBSneak000]

[edit on 15-7-2008 by QBSneak000]

this seems kind of unfair. to some ppl, they really have reason for believing and although proof may not always be there, it is something more a revealing to them. even if it isn't, why go and make someone feel even more isolated?

why not, if you don't agree and they won't see reason, just stay out of the thread? it will only be up so long as ppl keep replying to it?

who is to decide who's personal revelations are more important than anothers?