How would the U.S. military perform in an NBC environment? It's been well-publicized that the U.S. military is largely unprepared for such situations, unlike their former Soviet counterparts, China, and North Korea.

NBC environment? Whats that stand for?

Originally posted by Cutwolf
NBC environment? Whats that stand for?

Nuclear-Biological-Chemical

I think that depends on the service. The different services have different capabilities when it comes to working in that kind of enviroment.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I think that depends on the service. The different services have different capabilities when it comes to working in that kind of enviroment.

Let's assume it's the U.S. Army. They are most likely to encounter an NBC situation anyway.

I have been in the Army reserves for 8 years now and am curently inactive, as far as putting on my chemcal mask in 9 seconds it's no problem here. I can do it in 5 seconds only because I have practiced extensively.

I can, however, say that the majority of my fellow soldiers and I would say about 60-70% cannot perform this simple task in the time that they say it should be done which is 9 seconds.

There is just one major flaw with the whole concept behind chemical masks and suits as well as the shots that are provided for you. See the thing is that if there is a real biological or chemical attack by the time that the soldiers realize it they are already exposed to the toxin.

This is where the shots come into play first you inject the Atropene to speed up your heart then you shoot up with the 2pam chloride to counteract the Atropene so your heart doesn't explode. Now by injecting yourself and putting on your suit and mask you have only done one thing.

That is only to keep yourself alive long enough to complete your mission if you're lucky.

Performing tasks once suited up and protected would seem to depend alot on the enviromental conditions at the time.
Maybe Incognitoghostman can elaborate on this some.
Also how does one repair a tank engine or prep a fighter plane in the field when wearing a suit?

Originally posted by Phoenix
Performing tasks once suited up and protected would seem to depend alot on the enviromental conditions at the time.
Maybe Incognitoghostman can elaborate on this some.
Also how does one repair a tank engine or prep a fighter plane in the field when wearing a suit?

Let me tell you that no matter what environment you are in when fully suited up it is damn hot in there...lol.

You can move around pretty freely in this suit as it is a fabric of some kind not too sure exactly what it is though. It is lined with charcoal so as to act as a filter for NBC contaminants. It's a lot like wearing a snowsuit yet not as bulky.

As far as performing your normal duties repairing a tank or prepping a fighter plane for battle it would be a little different than usual but can be done. We train quite often on our specific job tasks while suited up so we can perform the necessary when need be. Another you might want to know the gloves that would be worn and I don't see the protection here but there are only rubber gloves about a 1/8-inch thick that go up about half way to your elbow and tucked in the coat worn.

So you can see whatever you are tasked to do as a soldier it can be accomplished without any hindrance from the suit. Although it really won't matter if you were exposed prior to suiting up depending on the agent because you are already dead; it's only a matter of time.

This is a little off topic but felt the need to throw this in here. I am a Combat Engineer my particular battalions task was demolitions and in particular clearing and laying minefields. Imagine having to run through a "hot" minefield fully suited only to run back to the beginning and then blowing it up. So it really wouldn't matter much if you were suited up or not when you’re a sitting duck running through a minefield.

Some Navy ships have CPS (Collective Protection System) which allows you to operate normally in a CBR enviroment. The explantation is kinda boring, but if someone really wanted to know about it I would post it.

IncognitoGhostman, Thanks theres no better info than experience. I have one more question - If an attack was underway/occured and one was extremly excited/worried about what happens next, do you think most could operate in the protective suits? - could most keep panic at bay lets say with an unknown agent loose?

Those NBC suits suck. They're hot, even when it's cold, so you sweat in them. No doubt because they're lined with carbon.

The promask! You have no peripheral vision. I'm claustrophobic and these things drove me nuts! There is really no way to line up a good sight picture, so shooting accuracy suffers greatly, wasting rounds. You can drink water through them, though, so that's good.

There are so many things I could say about this that I just don't feel like going into right now. Just got done racking my brain in the debate forum.

But I will leave you with these insights:

Would we fight? Yes.
Would we win? Yes.
Would a lot of the NBC equipment fail? Yes.
Would we incur many casualties in an NBC environment? Yes.
Would it SUCK? Most definitely.

[ncognitoGhostman,

What I was asking more was, is the equipment adequete for the situation? Are American NBC protection equipment suitable?

I remember the M17 was feared by many troops because it was so uncomfortable and outdated. To this day, the under-funded Marine Corps use them!

Pheonix, yes could operate in these suits in a contaminated environment specially if they think that they suited up only as a precaution of a possible attack. I don't think that we would be knowledgeable to an actual attack until it's too late unless you were part of a NBC advance team as I was, we were tasked with clearing a forward area for the battalion ensuring there was no contamination so I had detection systems at hand.

As far as the M17 I didn't realize the Marines still used them. The Army uses a newer model M21 and it is pretty good peripheral vision is much improved and has been changed to allow air flow around the face so the mask doesn't fog up.

No I don't think the equipment is adequete enough to protect you but it will keep you alive long enough.

Do you think the government cares about its soldiers, well think again. Have you ever seen old war movies or even documentaries where they show soldiers walking near and completely surrounding a Tank. Ever wonder why they do this well I'll tell you it's because a soldier is more expendable than a tank and they would rather have a soldier hit than a tank.

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
Do you think the government cares about its soldiers, well think again. Have you ever seen old war movies or even documentaries where they show soldiers walking near and completely surrounding a Tank. Ever wonder why they do this well I'll tell you it's because a soldier is more expendable than a tank and they would rather have a soldier hit than a tank.

Nah, the government doesn't care about anybody. No less it's soldiers. So screw the gov't!

Yeah, the M17 is still in use by the Marines. But that isn't a surprise. Being the most under-funded military branch, it shouldn't be. The Marine Corps overall has less defensive measures of it's own, aside from the naval ships. But one thing the Marines have is their Chemical-Biological Response Teams (CBRT). They can respond to domestic and military CBW attacks. The problem is, their job is not combat.

Final question: if the U.S. was in a war with let's say China and chemical weapons were used, what kind of impact would it have on our soldiers?

First let me tell you about my experiences with the M17 pro mask. I hated the damn thing and used it during basic training in '91. We used to sit around or perform various tasks while in MOPP4 (this is a term for having all your NBC protective gear on) and it was damn hot in there especially in Alabama in the middle on summer. The worst was one day when we had to sit there for 4 hours which really isn't too bad except for the fact my drinking tube was non-functional and wasn't able to drink the whole 4 hours and the Drill Sergeants were very adamant about me not breaking the seal on my mask just to take a drink. Now this really sucked and pissed me off as well as made me very thirsty...lol...

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Final question: if the U.S. was in a war with let's say China and chemical weapons were used, what kind of impact would it have on our soldiers?

If this was to happen it would have some impact on our soldiers as it would with soldiers anywhere in the world. It would not however have a big impact on the overall mission or war because they would undoubtedly pick up and carry out there mission without question.

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
It would not however have a big impact on the overall mission or war because they would undoubtedly pick up and carry out there mission without question.

Wow. Even if that meant soldiers would die in mass numbers on a regular basis?

As for the M17, did you ever have any doubts about it's ability to protect you?

AS far as doubts to protect me well it's hard to say although I can say that I did get to go through the "Disco Hut" (this is what they called the gas chamber where I attended basic training) 3 times. For those who don't know we would go into a house with our masks on only after doing all kinds of calisthenics to make you sweat and open up your pores....There is CS or riot gas in there and it burns. It starts burning in the pits of your knees and arms first and spreads like wildfire from there. Then you have to break the seal on your mask reseal it; the reason for this chain of events is to give you confidence in your mask. Then after all these charades you get to remove your mask in groups of five and one at a time you have to say your name and SS number (in reverse) now after everyone in this group has recited these things and only then do you get to walk around (completely) the interior of the building and out the door. Now this is where is gets funny because you will see people walking around with snot hanging out of their nose and in some cases it will be down to their waists or below.

If you're wondering why I went through this 3 times well let me tell you why. I went through it the first time with my company then in the beginning of my 7th week of basic training I came down with pneumonia and was hospitalized for 2 weeks then when released I had to be put in a different company because I had missed too much to proceed with my original company. What really sucked about this is I went to a company that had just started their 2nd week of basic training and had to do it all again.

When it came time to go back to the "Disco Hut" I already knew what to expect and to my surprise wasn't as bad as I remembered. After exiting the building A Drill Sergeant (he liked to mess with me) came up to me and asked, "Ghostman (this is a long story on the nickname and could tell it if you want) how'd you like the 'Hut' this time" and well my reply was "it was great Drill Sergeant". That’s when he said, "How would you like to do it again" and well me being stupid said, "sure no problem Drill Sergeant".

I can say that from my experiences from using the M17 I would have to say yes I feel confident that it would protect me and everybody else that uses it. This is solely, however, my opinion and don't know the total effectiveness of it.

On you first question well yes even if we as soldiers died in mass number on a regular basis we would carry on no matter what. See the mentality of every soldier isn't to question their orders but to carry them out at all cost. This will be done by the soldiers fighting specially if they know they are already exposed and knowing they are gonna die they will push even harder to ensure their task is complete to hopefully have an affect on the total outcome of their war even at the cost of their life.

I have a question for you sweatmonicaIdo why are you curious to the effectiveness of the M17 or the US military in a possible NBC environment?

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by IncognitoGhostman]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
How would the U.S. military perform in an NBC environment? It's been well-publicized that the U.S. military is largely unprepared for such situations, unlike their former Soviet counterparts, China, and North Korea.

The US military would perform superbly compared to the other countries militaries you just mentioned.

Where did this information come from that eludes to preparedness on the part of Russia and China being greater than that of the US?

That concept is just bizzare.

DeltaChaos

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
How would the U.S. military perform in an NBC environment? It's been well-publicized that the U.S. military is largely unprepared for such situations, unlike their former Soviet counterparts, China, and North Korea.

The US military would perform superbly compared to the other countries militaries you just mentioned.

Where did this information come from that eludes to preparedness on the part of Russia and China being greater than that of the US?

That concept is just bizzare.

DeltaChaos

I agree totally DeltaChaos but was trying to allude to the fact that the majority of miltitary personnel don't understand what the possibilities of an eventual contamination could do. this is however a perfect form of control of the masses.

We sure as hell DO know what VX nerve gas does to a human body. If we weren't trained in what effect nerve agents have on the system, we wouldn't very well have a reason for meeting the 8 second standard for donning the promask.

Everyone in our military is well aware the effects of NBC contamination.