Grand Canyon's Tunnel to The Underworld

Perhaps the obvious possibility is the Carthinaginians. Although the city-state was established by Tyre (ie the Phoenicians), I believe that many Carthinagians were native Africans (ie black)? And they definitely had the capability to reach the New World

Phoenician helmet
hmmm

I went to the Grand Canyon with my family when I was 12. We arrived just as the sun was setting. I stood right next to the edge and looked down in awe. Once that sun sets though it starts to cool down very rapidly I remember. I remember there were lots of deer in the area, that were so tame that they would come right up to our car, poke their heads in, I guess they were hoping to be fed.

What you look for could be the Emergence out of the underground rather than a tunnel into the underground

Anasazi "roads" www.cultures.com...

All roads lead to Chaco Canyon www.science-frontiers.com...

map of these roads; www.science-frontiers.com...

and www.colorado.edu...

or google Anasazi or Hisatsinom or Hopi Emergence Myth

The point was that humans was living underground and found a way out of there...
England also have a story of underground living people; the green children.

Green children links;
www.castleofspirits.com...
www.qsl.net...
12th century near Suffolk, England
The girl eventually married a man from King's Lynn (apparently this happened after some four years, by which time she would have been around 14) and took the name Agnes Barre. The current Earl Ferrers is descended from the de Ferrars family, who intermarried with a branch of the Devereux family, and whose pedigree included Anne, daughter of Sir John Barre, who had married Sir William Devereux in 1351, and is thus descended from Agnes.

Banjos, Spain in August of 1887
www.feralchildren.com...


[edit on 29-10-2006 by Ghaele]

Originally posted by Marduk

There are statues dipicted with unmistakable Negroid features in Central and South America so

no there aren't
you just want to believe there are

I am afraid that I, too, find the facial features of the Olmec heads to be, if not unmistakably African, at the very least more closely resembling an African than any other ethnic group.
I don't want to believe that, or to not believe it, that is just what I see.
And also, what do you say about the accounts of early European explorers who reported seeing black people in South America?
Or, what of tissue taken from Egyptian mummies over two thousand years old containing traces of coca and tobacco?
Or the coincidence that reed boats made by the people living on Lake Titicaca are identical to ones made in ancient Egypt?
Or the ancient old world legends of a paradise across the western sea, called L'Amerika?
Another thing I have read about which is quite little known is that there was at one time a great civilization on the Atlantic coast of Africa, in the area of Morrocco and Mauritania, which was said to travel to America.
The last thing I'll ask is why do megalithic walls in Peru, Mexico, and Egypt, exhibit identical building styles? That is quite the fluke if they never had contact.
I don't see why these items are not enough to at least bring into question the claim that Africans didn't visit America in ancient times. I have seen much more than what I posted here, and my view is there is more than enough evidence showing an ancient Africa/America connection to theorize that it is likely to have been something that had often taken place.

[edit on 11/4/2006 by BlackGuardXIII]

Don't waste your time with him...he also earlier posted that the grand canyon is located in Colorado. There are some people who just don't want to even consider other possibilities, and it is really sad...but nothing you can do to change their minds. Especially when it comes to human origins or race.

One thing that people seem to think is that Africans were incapable of sea travel, or that they had no desire to travel by sea. Perhaps they didn't have a need to, as they were very prosperous were they were (mostly, at least until others showed up), but I think human nature is to go off and see what's "out there", and to explore, and I don't see how people can dismiss the idea of Africans travelling by sea. They already did locally for trading, and there are many other very old groups of people who made long sea voyages in very "primitive" crafts. The native hawaiians arrived by canoe from polynesia, which is an incredibly long journey (hundreds of miles) as early as 2nd century AD. The first people to populate the Americas actually travelled down the coast by boat (is the theory) before they even went farther east..this would explain why there are earlier human remains at the southern tip of south america than there are even in the plains of the united states. Of course we can't find many remains to prove this theory, because it is all underwater now. But to simply say you won't even consider the idea that perhaps Africans were here kind of shows that you have already decided that you don't want to believe it for whatever reason. Despite much circumstancial evidence. But then again, if you're the kind of guy who thinks the grand canyon is in Colorado, you probably aren't capable of thinking for yourself, much less even knowing basic history or geography.

I'm still researching more about these ideas, but if you read back through my posts the last couple pages, there is a good amount of information to show Africans at least landed here and had contact with the native people, prior to Columbus.

Wikipedia also sums up the pieces of the puzzle for a convincing argument:

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Shoktek]

How come everyone bitches about black/african slavery but everyone forgets about the couple hundred years of white/european slavery by africans going on BEFORE and DURING the black slavery time? Or the majority of blacks sold to the new world were sold by rival black tribes?

yeah but thats not conveniant to bring up. Racism has nothing to do with it.

I've done a little bit of research on this Grand Canyon subject over the past few months, particularly the April 1909 article and its relevance. I am currently reading the journal of the first logged expedition through the Grand Canyon "The Exploration of the Colorado River" by John Wesley Powell. Who was the director of the U.S. Geological survey, and later on the head of the Bureau of Ethnology at the Smithsonian Institute. Even in his expedition, he points out that there are "great numbers of caves [that] are hollowed out, and carvings are seen, which suggest architectural forms, though on a scale so grand that architectural terms belittle them." page 98 (varies on version of the text, mine is copyright 1961) On page 99 (probably not written by Powell but another on the expedition who was writing the log with him) it says that on August 11, "he" discovered a trail deeply worn into the rock. "[I]n some places, steps have been cut." Page 100 then states, "I return to the camp around three o'clock, and find that some of the men have discovered ruins, and many fragments of pottery; also, etchings and hieroglyphics on the rocks." Now, it may be said that the one logging this and the men don't know enough about hieroglyphics themselves to fully testify that the carvings were, in fact, hieroglyphics, but never the less, the excerpt proves that something was there, that was out of the ordinary. The reason they had time to explore that location a bit was because the others on the team were measuring the latitude and longitude of the site, unfortunately, in the journal the exact coordinates they came up with are not mentioned. But, it is told in the log, that there were somewhere in Marble Canyon, which is the official start of the Grand Canyon, right next to the Indian reservation. Also, it came to my attention that US Highway 89A runs straight across this section of the canyon. I'm not proposing that Egyptians came to the Americas or the Grand Canyon, but something is definitely there. Has anyone heard about Stanton's Cave? Where many archaeological finds were made within the cave, but then abruptly, the cave was barred shut in 1997 so that "the big eared bat population in the area may go undisturbed."

www.zionnational-park.com...

What intrigues me about this subject is why there is so little information on this area. Also, there is actually a section of the canyon near here that is mysteriously "forbidden to the public."

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

I must admit one thing about the above link... the man by the name of Jack Andrews seems a bit nutty at best, although his research seems legit, he says he came across this "in a vision." I have tried contacting this Jack Andrews and Steve Wingate (who helped Mr. Andrews in his research, but have come across a dead end. The emails given on their site are not current, and even in google-ing them I find nothing but links to pages that no longer exist, interesting right?

So anyways, I read earlier in the forum that some people would like to do a trip and settle this once and for all. I would just like to know. Was anyone actually serious about doing it. Or just waiting for someone else crazy enough to actually do it. Because I find this site interesting that we can all get together and discuss a common interest in these yet unexplained places/events. But, there comes a point when you should stop discussing ideas and theories, and actually go out and try to prove or disprove it. Don't get me wrong, I don't fully believe the April 1909 article. But, I do believe the account of John Wesley Powell, who hasn't been erased from history, unlike the proposed, G.E. Kincaid, if ever such one existed. All I'm proposing, is, I'm interested in taking action, I think people who have some expereince should do some real, non-internet research on the subject, and possibly form a team to explore the validity of the "conspiracy."

By the way... I am actually planning on doing a back-country camping trip into the Grand Canyon this coming summer. If anyone is interested send me a message. I have a pretty good track record of camping under my belt. I went to the canyon once, but never in it. My goal is to spend at least one week IN the canyon, just to see what such a trip would be like. I'm only planning on taking a small group, 4-8 people max. I already have 3 spots filled up including myself. so if anyone is interested, and has an excellent camping backround, send me a message. This is extremely rough terrain, and we will be doing anywhere from 10-15 miles per day of hiking, this is definitely NOT for first time or intermediate campers.

oh yeah I forgot one last thing... It's not Hopi that inhabit the proposed area, it's Navajo and Hualapai. It's a Hualapai Reservation on the edge of the Grand Canyon, and they are actually currently finishing a Skywalk which can be seen here:

www.grandcanyonskywalk.com...
(official site)

and here:

www.destinationgrandcanyon.com...
(Hualapai Reservation site)

The main thing that interests me in the canyon is the fact that the native people in the area know about this old civilization that was in the canyon (know of it I guess, they don't know who it was or when it was), and also that Powell documented all of these findings in his log. The other supposed arizona article is very interesting, but is the only one which really delves into some extraordinary claims and findings...at the very least though, it is intriguing that there really is no information on this old grand canyon civilization to be found other than in logs, and even more intriguing that it seems there was no effort to further explore these findings, perhaps even an effort was made to cover them up. I highly doubt the Egyptians were there, but something interesting, and of historical importance, obviously is. I too would like to go see it for myself...not to go treasure hunting or find a conspiracy, but maybe to see some remains of the old people who lived here, and hike through a beautiful place.

The hike is supposed to be difficult though, and the caves and human remains are supposed to be in the cliff walls, quite a ways up from ground (colorado river) level. Are you planning on doing some real rock climbing on this trip, or just a hike through? I wouldn't say I'm any advanced camper, and I certainly don't know about rock climbing, but I am young, agile, and in good physical condition to embark on such a journey....I suppose it is pretty tough terrain though, and I don't have to mention all of the strange accidents that have happened to other people going through.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Shoktek]

Well the trip is supposed to be very difficult. I finally got into contact with Jack Andrews just a few hours ago. He says he knows within a 3 mile stretch, of where this thing could be located. On top of that, through my own research, using separate sources (probably not as excessive, since I have other things to study too) I found it to be in the same 3 mile stretch as he did. He based his work off the Kincaid article, I based mine from Powell. But yes, the trip is supposed to be extremely difficult and hazardous. I have some rock climbing experience though. Not much though, I think I'm a level 8 climber at best. And knowing the Grand Canyon, it's probably 11 and up. But, on my first trip there actually in the canyon will more than likely be just to gauge and explore the proposed area. That way if I need some climbing gear, I know plenty of hardcore 13 climbers that would be more than willing to come with me, I also plan on doing several climbing trips on my own so that I can improve my climbing ability and acquire more equipment as well, before embarking on this trip, which I plan to do in May-June this coming summer. Other than that I am extremely optimistic about this.

This isn't about the Grand Canyon area; but it is of the same nature - I live in SE NM and have been here all of my life. So the things I'm sharing right now I have acquired from various sources - mostly the first hand accounts of friends and family members (including in-laws).

It is said that there is an underground cave/highway system that travels North from down in Old Mexico (somewhere) and runs roughly along the line of the Rio Grande - passing under several small mountain ranges that have been known for rich veins of ore (mainly gold) that were sought after in the days of the Conquistadors and subsequent colonization and 'christianization' of the 'heathens' (read: civilized genocide in the name of God and for the wealth of the king of Spain).

Ghaele posted good links - that I have heard of, as well - and I have heard stories about the people descending and emerging at will - to travel, hide, or whatever...I don't know but it fascinates me for sure. I know there is, for a fact, cave systems and underground rivers all over NM and AZ so surely there is some basis to all these clues and hints we've heard about. I don't think that the Egyptians came here - I think that the migration Northward from the jungles of Mexico were of a people from the same or very similar origins as the Egyptians - separated toward opposite lands immediately pre- or post-deluvian times (OR at the start of the Holocene or end of the Younger Dryas event).

Now, from what I understand of the people in my neck of the woods (actually 'cactus' would be a better word ), the are believed to have mainly migrated north over the years due to reasons related to their growing crops of maize, which had become vital to their survival, this was a long time ago - in the days when the basket-makers first came on the scene and then they began to dwell in pueblos. It is said that this land has been inhabited for around 10,000 years.

I'm not sure of the reason they more recently began to use the underground route - but I strongly suspect it had everything to do with the situation between the 'white men' (Spaniards) and the native peoples (the descendants of whom are the Apaches, I believe - two tribes: Mescalero and Jicarilla; the latter one being Geronimo's people.

The 'white men' came for the gold - this is the land of the fabled Seven Cities of Gold (Cibola) and truly there are still vast riches in this land....but the Apaches were often literally forced into slave labor and treated so contemptuously that their defense became one of violent revolt against the Spaniards (brutal and total massacres at mine sites - surprise attacks on their oppressors) after which the Apaches would cover and obliterate any sign or clue of mining and what-not. They had no use for the gold and they hated the greed of the white men because it caused them to treat the Indians like animals. They kept watch (and probably still do, who knows?) on these places and killed any who dared venture too close. After all - it WAS their land AND their gold from the start!

Even as recent as the 1940's and 50's - if some intrepid treasure hunter (and believe me there were many who came and many more who followed even after the other ones never returned) got near to one of the old mine sites (where usually there is not only a lot of rich veins but also stashes of ore that were hidden in the caves/mines), they were soon found dead or not heard from again. One friend of mine's father was obsessed with what is supposed to be perhaps the richest stash in the state - in the bottom of the Caballo Mountains near Truth or Consequences pic - and supposedly the entrance they sought would also lead straight into the underground highway - and it was said there was a river/stream that ran along the way, too - perhaps the hidden life line of the Rio Grande, I don't know.

We looked through his dad's documents, letters, pictures, and maps of all his exploring - and truly I would not venture into that realm for any amount of gold! I don't know anything about the Grand Canyon in this respect - been there but never heard of tunnels or caves there...but in NM there are an abundance of all such things - and treasure hunting is one thing both states share in common...dangers and all!

And cover ups aren't always the doing of the government, either - I would be far more wary of other guardians of such secrets - regardless of the reason for going exploring, this part of the country (even AZ as well as NM) is still very much wilderness in the literal sense of the word.

So whatever you guys do, be very careful and weigh out your priorities. The things I said were not in any way exaggerated. I was looking for some kind of link - anything, but most of what I found is just bits and pieces here and there - I found a few hints that the Rio Grande thing might be connected somehow to the Grand Canyon - the rivers converge, perhaps? Google for Caballo Mountains, Horse Mountains, Doc Noss, Jornada Del Muerto, Lost Dutchman mine...

I DID, however, find this CRAZY site that you guys might find something of interest in - if you don't, then you didn't look hard enough!
www.burlingtonnews.net...

P.S.

The Spaniards often brought with them young boys and men as slaves/servants who were Moors - and many (for one reason or another) ended up living amongst the Native Americans - and Moors, of course, were very dark skinned.

Stanton's cave seems a remarkable treasure trove from several points of view. Written up in Archaeology Geology and Paleobiology of Stantons Cave, Grand Canyon National Park Arizona (Monograph / Grand Canyon Natural History Association) (Paperback)
by Robert C. Euler

I love these:
www.nativetech.org...
And this is about reclaiming it for the bats:
www.geocities.com...

Even a hundred years ago, many people still couldn't believe that Native Americans could do anything sophisticated. Which is probably the cause of some of these claims.

and Moors, of course, were very dark skinned.

I think anyone who's seen True Romance may remember that, didn't Dennis Hopper point that out to Christopher Walken

and of course those who know who the Moors were will know it too

And also that Robin Hood movie several years ago - Morgan Freeman was a moor, wasn't he?

Originally posted by Marduk
this is laughable
the Hopi reservation is in Arizona and at no time in their existence have they been anywhere near Colorado where the grand canyon is situated
as a result they have no myths or legends about it whatsoever
in fact the Hopi emergence story centers around their travel to their present location from South america where they claimed to have been part of the Aztec nation via the Anasazi

so unless they took a really big detour on their way to Arizona (which the God Masaw directed them specifically straight to) this whole thread doesn't hold water
very much like their present home on the Arizona reservation

sounds like someones been reading crystal links if you ask me
claims that the Hopi came from the Pleaides and are in contact with Alien grays are also erroneous

I'm sorry for bringing this thread back up. I am researching the Sipapu mound location and came across this site. I had to comment on this post.

You, sir, are ignorant.

The grand canyon is located in northern Arizona... not Colorado. For you to say that the Hopi people have never been associated with Colorado is even worse. Colorado is home to Mesa Verde, one of the largest cliff dwelling cities in the southwest. The Anasazi people inhabited these dwellings and the Hopi are descendants of them.

Maasaw is the Hopi's god of the dead and he didn't direct them anywhere from South America, according to their legend. He oversees the Sipapu mound. The mound from which the Hopi people came from and where they will return after death.

Please do some research before you decide to "educate" someone.

reply to post by dwilliam


Instead of giving advice to someone that is no longer on the board, I suggest you consider that the Hopi are not the Anasazi.

Also, why do you expect a banned (former) member to read what you said?

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
reply to post by dwilliam

 

Instead of giving advice to someone that is no longer on the board, I suggest you consider that the Hopi are not the Anasazi.

Also, why do you expect a banned (former) member to read what you said?

Harte

Easy sailor, he has only just joined today. Perhaps he doesn't understand completely how the sidebar works, and didn't notice the banned title.

reply to post by Harte



I was wondering what happened to Marduk. I hated that guy. There is another on this board that i think may be Marduk.

I had the displeasure of dealing with him on another forum. He sucked over there, too.