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Chemtrail debate

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posted on May, 29 2004 @ 11:43 PM
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Could contrails and Chem trails act exactly the same yet be different? How do either of you know 100% you are correct? Maybe if chemtrails do exist they are not dangerous? Maybe the HAARP program uses chemtrails for testing? OR Maybe they just don't exist and are nothing more then contrails..




posted on May, 29 2004 @ 11:53 PM
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Oops. Forgot. Apparently HowardR doesn't fly much.

I fly out of our major airport from time to time, and have enjoyed watching the chemtrail mystery from the air, as well. First, your plane does not get clearance to go even as high as 5,000 feet until you are at least 40 miles out. At that distance, and for the next 50 miles or so, the chemtrails are beginning to thin out, because they are concentrated on population centers (you won't see any, for instance, when flying over the Rockies).

Any way, if you are interested in chemtrails, then you are the only person looking UP during this time because they are still above you. Eventually, your pilot will get clearance to ascend to a decent altitude, although this may be no more than 20,000 feet if your next destination isn't too far away, say in the next state.

The interesting thing is that as you ascend past 10,000 feet, just where you think the chemtrails would be most visible, and you've got your camera out and ready... the spray patterns all narrow down to a single line across the sky because you are looking at them edge on. Even if they extend for the next 40 miles, all you see is what appears to be a single line of something with a smoggy greyish color. Believe me, it's not even worth snapping a picture.

You will pass through 10,000 rather quickly but you, watching them, will begin to see the chemtrails from slightly above. Since you know what they are, you would recognize them right away. But from above they have a tendency to blend in with smog below them and are actually a little harder to see. Stranger still, pilots usually miss this view, because the plane is nose-up at this point and they are looking upward, into the airspace they are ascending to. On short hops, however, where they level off at say, 14000, they have good views of fresh chemtrails, which look like a fat rope hanging in the air just below them. Some day these guys are going to share some great photos, but I don't think it will be until after this is all over. Most of them know that their companies don't want anyone rocking the boat.. er.. airplane.



[Edited on 30-5-2004 by Strider]



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 12:45 AM
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Hi Raphael!

No, real contrails behave quite differently, except in very rare weather conditions. Logic would also suggest that if the chemtrail program was good for us, Uncle would be bragging about it. Lord knows they have little enough to brag about as it is.

At the time chemtrails began, there was a major, and I mean MAJOR effort to whip up earth changes, end-times, planet-X, and other terrifying scenarios on the web and on late night radio. This actually persuaded many people that chemtrails and other major government programs begun at the same time were beneficial, something being done for "our own good". This has started again, and I expect it signals either the end of the program or a significant change. This is just intuition, if you will, but from someone with a lot of experience.

To evaluate the potential of this program, ie. what does it mean, you must first determine whether you believe that the people who really run things are capable of good - or great evil. I say this as a caution, because it is difficult for us to escape the basic premise we hold, regardless of how logical we believe we are being.

I only point out that we examined every possibililty we could think of at the time, both positive and negative, no matter how wierd, and none of the positive ones seemed to hold up very well. Of the negative ones, the best argument used Occam's Razor to keep it as simple as possible.

Essentially, it said that if the powers that be were going to fill the atmosphere with petrochemicals and pesticides known to cause lung damage, then a lung-damaged population had to be the object of the exercise. The only reason anyone could think of for doing such a thing was, at some later time, to expose that population to an airborn disease that they wanted everyone to catch or, if everyone was likely to catch it any way, a disease that would have a higher death rate if the lungs were already demaged and immune systems were compromised. Then all we could do was wait to see what happened. It's been a long wait.

I also know that someone has finally been able to answer the few questions that left us baffled at the time: 1) What ties together the countries being sprayed as opposed to those who are not? ...and 2) What would be the financial reward that could justify spending 10 billion dollars or more to eventually kill millions of people. This information is going into a book, I'm told, and will probably be out in some form before Fall. I only mention it because I hate unsolved mysteries and look forward to learning something more. You can take it with a grain of salt - as you wish.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
So I take it that the basis of your whole claim is that chemtrails are only sprayed between 10,000 and 12,000 feet?

Do any other chemtrail believers agree with you on this?


And don't think that I didn't notice that you ignored my gasoline/jet fuel question.

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by HowardRoark]


i don't agree. and i'm not a chemtrail believer, so much as a WTF IS GOING ON! believer. i see chemtrails. i don't 'believe' in them.

at a peace protest in 30C below weather(the beginning of the iraq war), i saw a low flying jet(let's say, between 5,000 and 10,000 ft.) , yes, SPRAY a trail of suspicious contrails. the jet flew directly over the parade of protesters. the police had a big brother type sattelite van hook-up. it is always 30C below. here(in february), and there are fewer contrails in the wintertime. i've seen them laid down in parallel over the plains and the mountains. i've seen blue skies turned white.

there is an agenda to reduce the world's population to 500 million, or ten percent for all you fellow mathematicianators. are chemtrails, haarp, JCD, AIDS, unwinnable wars against nouns, and vaccinations part of the plan?

billybob says 'yes'.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 02:41 PM
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And just how did you know what altitude the plane was at?

Did you rely on Strider's "estimation" method?

If so, then I'm sure you must realize that since there are many different planes of different sizes, to be able to accurately estimate the distance of a particular plane you first need to be able to tell what kind of plane it is.

What kind of plane was it, Billybob?



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 02:43 PM
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Hey Strider, have you ever asked a pilot about chemtrails?


How come there is not a single pilot, comercial or private that beleives in chemtrails?



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 03:54 PM
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I belive they are real just dont what there for weather ,virus protection ??????????? preparing the atmosphere for the next race



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 09:14 PM
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Stider: Our tankers actually dipped below 10,000 at times, but generally stayed right at the bottom of the 10,000 - 30,000 ft box that air controllers say they reserve "for national security purposes".


I'm a private pilot. I've flown at 10,000 feet. I've never been told by any air controllers to stay out of or watch for any area reserved "for national security purposes." Can you please cite a source for that or did you just make it up?


First, your plane does not get clearance to go even as high as 5,000 feet until you are at least 40 miles out. At that distance, and for the next 50 miles or so, the chemtrails are beginning to thin out, because they are concentrated on population centers (you won't see any, for instance, when flying over the Rockies).


Bzzzz, wrong again. Take a look at any aeronautical chart and you can see the airspace that a given airport controls at a given distance. For example, Denver International Airport is at 5431 feet. At 20 nautical miles all aircraft controlled by DIA are at between 8000 and 12000 feet (2500 minimum above ground level). At 30 nautical miles all aircraft controlled by DIA are at betweem 10000 and 12000 feet (5000-7000 feet AGL). The idea is to get aircraft as high as possible before it leaves airspace of the airport in question. Your allegation that you "don't even get clearance to go even as high as 5000 feet until 40 miles out" is BS and I assume you made it up. You must be at at least 5000 feet at 40 miles out or you'll be busting airspace and possibly running into VFR traffic (Cessnas and stuff like that that aren't in contact with departure control).


Eventually, your pilot will get clearance to ascend to a decent altitude, although this may be no more than 20,000 feet if your next destination isn't too far away, say in the next state.


Duh. There's no reason to burn extra fuel to get to a higher altitude if you're going to be coming right back down.


BillyBob: at a peace protest in 30C below weather(the beginning of the iraq war), i saw a low flying jet(let's say, between 5,000 and 10,000 ft.) , yes, SPRAY a trail of suspicious contrails. the jet flew directly over the parade of protesters.


Ignoring the difficuly of estimating altitude, you say it was -30C on the ground? Then at 5000ft it was about -40C and at 10,000 feet it was about -50C. Those temperatures are perfectly adequate for contrail formation, especially if there was much humidity in the atmosphere. Nothing suspicious there.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 12:57 PM
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there is nothing more suspicious about chemtrails than the pit bull grip of the naysayers crowd. if you don't 'believe' in them, why have you wasted so much of your precious time on earth to convince people they don't exist?
the plabne over the protest was low, because it looked big in the sky. i have no method of altitude guessing other than this. if i hold my hand six inches over my head, then the plane was about an inch and a half across between my thumb and index finger.
the plane was plain white. it looked like a jumbo jet or a tanker from the bottom(wide body).
ciao for now.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 02:54 PM
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there is nothing more suspicious about chemtrails than the pit bull grip of the naysayers crowd. if you don't 'believe' in them, why have you wasted so much of your precious time on earth to convince people they don't exist?


I have never understood why some people think it is strange that people such as myself would spend time debating something we don't believe in. There is nothing surprising about it. If it weren't for people arguing against points of view they don't agree with then the world would be flooded with unproven theories and bad science that would be completely unchallenged. Arguing against theories that one doesn't believe in is part of how science works and, in the case of topics such as this that aren't based on science to start with, the exercise of debating the issue is still entertaining.

That people take time to argue againts points of view they disagree with is only strange to the chemtrail believer. Pick any message board on virtually any controversial topic (science, religion, politics, etc.) and you'll find people arguing both sides of a topic. That we take issue with the chemtrail nonsense is no more surprising than that there are atheists who enjoy debating Christians, Christians that enjoy debating atheists, Republicans that enjoy debating Democrats, etc. It's completely normal, especially on the Internet.

But chemtrail believers do have a reputation of not being able to realize what is normal in this world...



the plane over the protest was low, because it looked big in the sky. i have no method of altitude guessing other than this. if i hold my hand six inches over my head, then the plane was about an inch and a half across between my thumb and index finger. the plane was plain white. it looked like a jumbo jet or a tanker from the bottom(wide body).


Out of curiosity, in what city was the protest, and where in the city? Also, regardless of altitude -30C is sufficient for contrail formation depending on meteorological conditions. So even if it was just 100 feet above you the fact that you saw contrails is not necessarily surprising.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by billybob
if you don't 'believe' in them, why have you wasted so much of your precious time on earth to convince people they don't exist?



ever hear of the term 'defy ignorance' ? As long as we can convince a few semi-intelligent people that 'chemtrails' are a BS conspiracy theory then we've done our job. All the rest of the people who still believe in them are hopeless anyway and are probably too busy thinking that the government is sending aliens to their door to anally rape them in an attempt to silence the atrocities that occured in Antartica when the Greys shot marilyn monroe in the face with a phaser and sent the ship used in the philadelphia experiment to atlantis from which it returned back to earth in the bermuda triangle, to really look at SCIENTIFIC FACT.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by elmariachi

ever hear of the term 'defy ignorance' ?


no. i haven't. i do do it everyday, though.
the buzzphrase(programming) is 'deny ignorance'.
the funny thing is that posters actually think if three or four can agree on something, than THAT is the truth. it is called concensus reality. it has nothing to do with the ABSOLUTE.
i am mostly interested in the ABSOLUTE. everything else is a mere signpost on THE WAY.
signposts like chemtrails, disinfo pros and whatnot.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by billybob


no. i haven't. i do do it everyday, though.
the buzzphrase(programming) is 'deny ignorance'.
the funny thing is that posters actually think if three or four can agree on something, than THAT is the truth. it is called concensus reality. it has nothing to do with the ABSOLUTE.
i am mostly interested in the ABSOLUTE. everything else is a mere signpost on THE WAY.
signposts like chemtrails, disinfo pros and whatnot.


Whoops, messed up the n with the f. Sorry about that.

That being said, the concensus reality and ABSOLUTE are exactly the same in that all the theories of chemtrails are BOGUS. I've seen people shoot down the theory with real science and real experience (real pilots versus people who talk like pilots), and the people who cook up information got completely owned. It shouldn't even be up for debate anymore. Maybe it'll just be safer if you go and put your tinfoil hat back on so that the reptilians on delphar-V don't use their Kedesnshe mind control device on you and activate "CODE 17" which causes you to mindlessly inflict harm on a president. Maybe its working already, causing you to mindlessly deny your ignorance.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 01:04 PM
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As you all can see, the Thought Police are out in force, again.

Notice how many key points they pretend not to have heard, and instead focus on only one or two items of a technical nature, which readers will naturally find confusing.

Regarding pilots, at least two commercial pilots were early members of the Yahoo group Chemtrail Tracking USA, and I enjoyed private conversations with both.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by elmariachi

Whoops, messed up the n with the f. Sorry about that.

That being said, the concensus reality and ABSOLUTE are exactly the same in that all the theories of chemtrails are BOGUS. I've seen people shoot down the theory with real science and real experience (real pilots versus people who talk like pilots), and the people who cook up information got completely owned. It shouldn't even be up for debate anymore. Maybe it'll just be safer if you go and put your tinfoil hat back on so that the reptilians on delphar-V don't use their Kedesnshe mind control device on you and activate "CODE 17" which causes you to mindlessly inflict harm on a president. Maybe its working already, causing you to mindlessly deny your ignorance.


yes. i am mindlessly denying my ignorance. that's sure not a double reverse not negative oxymoron, neither.

maybe you should go read the entire 'painting the sky' thread, and just see how a real pro(howard:up
does it. avoid the tactics used by stuck-up stuart or angryman, affirmativereaction. also see that nobody 'owns' me. after extensive debate, it is still a stalemate. without testing every single 'contrail', nothing is proven or disproven.
it's always funny to see a goldfish point and laugh from inside his little bowl.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by billybob]



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 01:23 PM
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Go for it, Billybob!

The one thing they don't want anyone to do is to actually go out and study this operation with their own eyes. They basic inconsistencies are easily visible: particularly the operation's dependence on wind direction and speed, the fact that they rarely spray at night, etc.

Just some simple observation and note-taking is all you need.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 03:47 PM
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Billybob: without testing every single 'contrail', nothing is proven or disproven.


Exactly. No instance of chemtrails has ever been proven. Lacking proof of chemtrails, the scientifically understood phenomena of contrails is the accepted explanation. We don't have to proof every contrail is a contrail for contrails to be the accepted explanation--the chemtrailers need to provide proof that contrails are something else. Until then, it's just an unfounded conspiracy theory talked about on late night AM radio stations and a few out-to-lunch Internet sites.


Strider: The one thing they don't want anyone to do is to actually go out and study this operation with their own eyes. They basic inconsistencies are easily visible: particularly the operation's dependence on wind direction and speed, the fact that they rarely spray at night, etc. Just some simple observation and note-taking is all you need.


Don't spray at night? Heheh, could it be that there is just less air traffic at night? Dependence on wind direction and speed? Could it be that contrails are carried by winds aloft?


Regarding pilots, at least two commercial pilots were early members of the Yahoo group Chemtrail Tracking USA, and I enjoyed private conversations with both.


Could you please put me in touch with them?



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 03:55 PM
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Don't spray at night? Heheh, could it be that there is just less air traffic at night? Dependence on wind direction and speed? Could it be that contrails are carried by winds aloft?


I don't know about you, but it isn't always easy to see cirrus clouds at night let alone contrails or 'chemtrails'

I'd just like to point out that these 'chemtrail' enthusiasts employ the same tactics that creationists tend to use- dismiss science for whatever wacky theory they like to put forth.

OWOW YOU SAW CLOUDS HOW AMWAZINGE!!! MUST BE A GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY!



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by Strider
Just some simple observation and note-taking is all you need.



ah, ok.

so one day i saw a fly come out of some gravy i left out overnight.... I have proven spontaneous generation!!!



posted on Jun, 6 2004 @ 09:18 PM
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i dunno if this was posted here before or not, but anways it has links to some interesting info on chemtrails:

www.workingtv.com...

here is a link to a house of representative bill that references chem trails. it was later amended to remove the reference:

www.fas.org...

[edit on 6-6-2004 by spangbr]




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