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Concerning 9-11 "Truth": Irreducible Delusion & the Inflationary Model

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posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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There have been some white papers posted on another forum that I think are worth highlighting here.

No, it's not an attempt to gain traffic over there. No, I didn't write the papers. No, I don't know the author (never spoken a word to him in any capacity). I have no vested interest other than highlighting what I think explains a lot of conspiracy theorists behavior in general in the "truth movement" in particular.

For my ADHD brethren, a short synopsis:

Irreducible Delusion:



"Conspiracy theories in general and 9/11 conspiracies in particular are not logical, so debating with folks who believe in them is usually pointless and leads to a lot of yelling. It's better to just find the root mistake, point it out for everyone, and let it go." - R. Mackey 12JULY08


The detailed white paper is contained here


The Inflationary Model:
Basically,this model states in order for conspiracy theories to remain consistent (with themselves and other competing theories) there is a evolutionary "inflation" that all conspiracies go through.

In short, in order to explain the most basic of questions, the conspiracy must grow to encompass entities, people and agencies originally outside the scope of the original conspiracy theory. Once inflation occurs, more basic, logic based questions are asked and in response the theory grows ("inflates") yet again which results in more questions and more inflation until the conspiracy involves virtually everyone and everything.



"There's a fine line in the Scientific Method, one that you have crossed. I refer to the fine line between refining a hypothesis and making excuses." - R. Mackey 06FEB07


Interested? Even if you don't agree wouldn't you admit reading the paper can only broaden your horizons?

Part I

&

Part II

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]




posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 09:57 AM
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What a load a poop.


How does this disinfo put a plane in the shanksville hole for there was none?

The biggest conspiracy is the official conspiracy that has failed time and time again to prove itself.


Thats why the truth movement is about truth and debunkers and pseudo skeptics such as yourself are about lies and nonsense.

All you do is attack ATS and its members for researching and trying to engage in a rational mature converstaion about the topic at hand.

DO you think by calling people kooks for not beliving the official rubbish conspiracy is going to sway anyone to your darkside of ignorance of the facts?

We all know. Its just a matter of details. The battle is fighting the disinformationalists, pseudo skeptics and ignorance truth deniers from posting hologram, laser, shootdown, Exotic weapons threads every time a thread destroys the official story.

For example. No plane crashed in SHanksville and not one person or group has been able to prove one did so threads with lame content like this comes out in hopes to discredit the truth movement.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:04 AM
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Thank you for your reply Ivan. Unfortunately, I think your post is in relation to another thread and you may be confused.

This thread is about Irreducible Delusion and The Inflationary Model.

You did accomplish one important illustration for me: you just demonstrated, without any prompting from anyone, the Inflationary Model in action. In fact, it's the very last step.

I would invite you to actually read what you are now discussing. You'll have much more credibility that way and will be able to create your own thoughts, rather than cut and pasting a huge amount of work from others.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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Your illusionary model is a load of crap that no one is buying.


People like you hanging out in 911 truth forums are being exposed.

Nobody buys this bologne. You can try to rationalize your delusion but it is your delusion and not embraced by intelligent honest people especially most of the people that come to this forum.

The rumours that ATS is a Psyop or Cointel pro only stems from rubbish research and attacks on the people who seek the truth and not the information that is being presented for investigation such as articles by you slightabivepar.

If you want to contribute to the research your more than welcome, but people dont like comming here being attacked for seeking the truth. It only exsposes yourself and creates more skeptics of the official story and webpages such as this one.



[edit on 14-7-2008 by IvanZana]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 



All you do is attack ATS and its members for researching and trying to engage in a rational mature converstaion about the topic at hand.


Says the man who began his reply with "What a load a poop."

How ironical.

Thanks for the link, SAP.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by Boone 870
 


I was wondering when the other resident pseudo skeptic debunker was going to come here and say some silly thing.

Typical and empty.

Running out of ammo guys? Sinking ship?



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 


Ivan, in your other response, in another thread, you demonstrated the Inflationary Model by claiming those who believe in Holograms, wrong planes, beam weapons, etc are "in on it".

In other words, you recognize these claims as utter nonsense and in an effort to explain the outer, outer, outer fringe you expand your theory (whatever that might be) to include - and account for - the truly bizarre among you.

This claim, of course, has consequences. Namely, you just accused a whole bunch of people of murder. If they are in on it, then they are complicit in the murder of over 3,000 innocents.

I ask you to account for that charge and the response? An inflation of the conspiracy to now include me and anyone else who agrees with me.

So, with you now demonstrating the Inflationary Model for us; how do you account for your most recent assertion?

(1) Do you believe John Lear, Craig Ranke and others are - in your words, not mine - accomplices to murder?

-OR-

(2) Do you now retract that statement thereby rendering your entire (Inflationary Model) comment/argument moot?



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar
 


ummmm ya.



Divide and Conquer: History and Purpose

Why do people attack each other? There are several reasons and many attack with deliberate intent. In fact, there can be ulterior motives for divisive behavior. Historically, Divide and conquer was an intentional strategy used by the OSS during World War II:[3]

“Psychological warfare, as the term is used by the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff ... comprises all moral and physical means other than orthodox military operations which tend to destroy the will and ability of the enemy to resist, to deprive him of support of allies or neutrals and to increase in our own troops and allies the will to victory. The implements of psychological warfare are: open propaganda, subversion, special operations (sabotage, guerrilla warfare, espionage), political and cultural pressures, economic pressures. The principal effects sought are persuasion, sympathy, terrorization, confusion, division and physical interference.”[4]


There is quite abit of info and history about the subject.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 



What causes divisiveness within the 9/11 truth movement? We can mainly summarize it in one word: Ad hominem. This is how it works:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.[11]
The “attack” can come in the form of insult, accusation, or irrelevant commentary. In fact, one does not need to hurl insults to commit ad hominem. Any commentary that distracts attention away from an argument to an individual belongs to this fallacy:

“So here we have Cosmos who shows you he looks like he's trying to imitate Che Guavara or a member of the Sons of David baseball team. He's hiding behind a huge beard, looks like the Italian aviators in A Night at the Opera… Michael Wolsey, Visibility 9/11. He appears of course in shades, he's got some cool shades on, he doesn’t want you to see him.”[12]

It can be observed that ad hominem is one of the most effective forms of disinformation because it engages individuals at the emotional level.[13] While anyone can employ ad hominem commentary, the 9/11 truth movement is especially noteworthy for its usage:

“Another important aspect of how disinformation in the 9/11 Truth Movement functions is through the use of attack and vitriol. While all types of people—professionals, academics and average people—can resort to nasty or inappropriate personal attacks when defending or promoting theories which conflict, the 9/11 Truth Movement has been packed with such attacks.”[14]

Agent Provocateurs emphasize:

Attacking individuals for what they believe/advocate (ad hominem)
Divisiveness to the exclusion of constructive debate; avoidance of civility and polite discussion
The use of ridicule, divisive labels, sarcasm, accusations, and ad hominem to bait fights rather than constructive dialog. As well, personal commentary, past battles, group associations, etc. are all highlighted for the purpose of divisive arguments
Straw-man (often with divisive labels): distorting the position of your opponent in order to make them defensive and bait an argument
A refusal to fairly debate or acknowledge contrary opinions/evidence and instead attack individuals for what they advocate.

arabesque911.blogspot.com...

Can you people find the resemblances in these 911 threads?



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:01 AM
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You know, when Copernicus suggested the Earth revolved around the Sun, it literally took until that entire generation of people died, and a fresh one could approach the problem in an unbiased nature, for people to start realizing that Copernicus was right, despite all the "experts." There were a ton of them that "debunked" Copernicus. They all died before ever realizing they were completely wrong.

So I have a theory, too: this guy is just another one of history's examples of people not being able to cope with evidence that suggests things in major contradiction with the way they already see and understand their world.


Either way, this topic has absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened on 9/11. Resorting to have to argue things like this, instead of the actual physics and etc., just illustrates the real underlying issues with this statement:


Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar

"Conspiracy theories in general and 9/11 conspiracies in particular are not logical, so debating with folks who believe in them is usually pointless


And that is, that you can't get across to people who are looking at direct evidence, simply by appealing to authority and writing papers on non-existent complexes and all other number of fallacious reasoning. That is why this man has such a hard time trying to convince people they are wrong: they aren't wrong.

I predict this man will die and many others before clear eyes will look back and realize that this homeland of Nazi Germany really did perform this Holocaust of 3000+. After all, if people actually realized what was going on as it happened, the Nazis would not have been able to do what they did anyway. The bottom line is that people are always stupider in great circle-jerking masses when it comes to view-shattering issues like this. And Germans didn't even have the reputation of being as stupid and apathetic as Americans do today, either.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by bsbray11]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:17 AM
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Argument from personal belief and an argumentative fallacy.

If you want to debate your nebulous ideas around how I "just can't cope with reality" please start a thread, present your ideas and I will discuss it with you there.

You are engaging in another popular conspiracy fallacy: deflection.

The issues, in this thread, are Irreducible Delusions and the Inflation Model. Do you have any thing of substance to add to the discussion concerning these two theories?

If you have an issue with one, or the other (both?) theories, lets discuss it. If your intention is to continue the delusion of deflection, please do it elsewhere.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 


Thanks for your response Ivan. Now that you are engaged in another argumentative fallacy known as deflection, let me refocus you back to your original assertion(s).



(1) Do you believe John Lear, Craig Ranke and others are - in your words, not mine - accomplices to murder?

-OR-

(2) Do you now retract that statement thereby rendering your entire (Inflationary Model) comment/argument moot?


EDIT: Please include your own thoughts. I am not interested in reading from your library of blog quotes. If you don't have any original thoughts, just post a link please.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Argument from personal belief and an argumentative fallacy.

If you want to debate your nebulous ideas around how I "just can't cope with reality" please start a thread, present your ideas and I will discuss it with you there.

You are engaging in another popular conspiracy fallacy: deflection.

The issues, in this thread, are Irreducible Delusions and the Inflation Model. Do you have any thing of substance to add to the discussion concerning these two theories?

If you have an issue with one, or the other (both?) theories, lets discuss it. If your intention is to continue the delusion of deflection, please do it elsewhere.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]


Then change the title of this thread and REMOVE any reference to 911 from it. You see, you are full of it my friend. You are trying to use deflection as well by your initial statement of "I don't know this guy, speak with him, blah blah blah.....BUT!!!!"

Then you post the little clip where it makes the claim about how people who believe in CTs, AND ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN 911 CTs!

You see, you are making this a thread about 911. So when someone comes in to debate that you come back to this lazy argument.

Remove 911 from your thread title if you don't want that topic discussed.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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Thanks for your reply.

Do you have anything of substance to contribute concerning either (or both) theories? These theories are very specific, give complete examples and are open for discussion.

Let me repeat, the theories are open for discussion. I am open to discuss how the theories relate to 9-11 "truthers". The ideas put forth are very specific and should be easy to address.

If you actually take the time to read them.

Thank you for highlighting yet another hallmark (IMO) of the "truth movement": unmitigated hostility towards anyone or anything that threatens the theory.

If you want to take the time to read the white papers (an hours read, or so) and actually have a grasp of what you're talking about....I'll be here.

If not, move along, this post isn't for you.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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When people are not allied with the truth, they are known as LIARS. Sometimes people just swallow the official story because they are too lazy to do actual research.

I have personal experience in high rise construction that allows me to see right through much of the bs thrown up by the criminal cover up. I have watched as heavyweight authorities ignore the basics of high rise architecture, maintenance procedures and protocol, and landlord/tenant relationships to willingly lie through their teeth to support the official story.

RESEARCH HINT. Obtain the plans to a modern high rise building. Note the use of FIREWALLS between the core and the adjacent TENANT SPACES. Also note the presence of DEDICATED MAINTENANCE ELEVATORS. These are usually located away from the high traffic regular elevators and are only accessed by maintenance personnel. Then take note that there are ENTIRE FLOORS DEVOTED TO MAINTENANCE. The normal elevator will not open it's door on these floors. It is only for maintenance personnel.

Modern High Rise buildings are designed to that the building owner can have their maintenance staff working on the building to keep it running without anyone in the client/renter areas knowing that they are even there. The renter's work force will not see the maintenance staff working behind the scenes. THEY WOULD ALSO BE OBLIVIOUS TO ANYONE PLANTING EXPLOSIVES OR BOMBS IN THE BUILDING WHILE THEY WORKED. That is how the explosives were put there without everyone seeing it done.


THE TRUTH WILL NEVER COME TO LIGHT. THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE TRUTH AND WORSHIP PROFIT INSTEAD.

FOLLOW THE MONEY. THE MONEY DOES NOT LIE. WHO MADE MONEY ON 9-11? NOT THE TRUTH MOVEMENT.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 


Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately, none of what you are talking about has a thing to do with the Irreducible Delusion and the Inflationary Model as it relates to 9-11 "truthers".

Do you have anything of substance to add to this topic?

Your post has hints of both inflation and strong deflection(s).



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Argument from personal belief and an argumentative fallacy.


Yeah, same as with this entire thread as it relates to 9/11, so I figure it's perfectly appropriate by your own reasoning.


You are engaging in another popular conspiracy fallacy: deflection.


You know this same idea can apply to you and your thread here, right? Where is anything objective or scientific about 9/11 in this thread? Nowhere, because what you posted is nothing but a smear piece as far as discussing what happened on 9/11.


The issues, in this thread, are Irreducible Delusions and the Inflation Model. Do you have any thing of substance to add to the discussion concerning these two theories?


Yes: they're both completely unsupportable trash. Do you have anything you'd like to show us that supports them, besides your own viewpoint?



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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This entire thread is basically an ad hominem attack. It's not an attack on a specific person, but anyone who doesn't believe thae US governments version of events. There is nothing scientific about this, it is one man's opinion about a large group of people.
Why not attack the physics of 9/11 instead of the people seeking truth. You could start in the WTC7 thread down the page, on the last page there is a video of a guy using a physics program to show that building 7 was falling at the acceleration of gravity. Then after you have mastered that one, move on to LabTop's thesis on the seismic evidence.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Another POS thread that's worth exactly squat.


.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:39 PM
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"Conspiracy theories in general and 9/11 conspiracies in particular are not logical, so debating with folks who believe in them is usually pointless and leads to a lot of yelling."
-ryan 'gravy' mackey, NASA shill


right off, this sweeping statement is pointless, unfounded and plain wrong. america was founded on a conspiracy, for example.

ryan mackey will also say JFK was not a conspiracy. he is an unreality gatekeeper, trying to keep everything unreal.

and, speaking of JFK, how many people had to be 'in on it' at some level? lots.

why is it so unbelievable that nazi germany happened? by the 'logic' of debunkers like the bogey man, slightlyabovepar, nazi germany is impossible, because it also was founded by a conspiracy and a massive propaganda campaign. too many people had to be 'in on it', because of some inflationary model, ie A THEORY? the FACT is, that the majority of the population of germany was 'in on it' the day after the riechstag fire.

one must appreciate the power of propaganda as a tool for getting good people to do bad things. only a handful of people need be steering the boat, the rest will follow because they happen to be on the boat.

witness, for example, the pilot who allegedly shot down flight 93, and was then allegedly rewarded for it. he was 'just following orders', so there is no blame on him, and the people who ARE to blame are the people who make the rules, so they happen to be beyond persecution(for now).

i don't think r. mackey can appreciate the power of greed to corrupt the principles and morals of a human. i've met people who would kill ANYONE for $50 bucks.

r. mackey is a goof.



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