Originally posted by jsobecky
"The Owners and senior moderator staff reserve the right to take action against any member who is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption, whose actions represent behavior contrary to community building, or whose content is contrary to the core ideals of AboveTopSecret.com."

I asked you how Gools' attack helped build community. You refused to answer.

The paragraph says that mods reserve the right to take action against a member whose actions are contrary to community building. It doesn't require that every comment MUST build the community. So, while Gools' comments may not have "built" community, neither were they purely devoted to disruption and contrary to community building.

I ask Gools again: what is it supposed to mean, I'm wasting my time here on ATS?

It's just his opinion. Let it go.

And coming from a Super Moderator, this member now feels ostracized.

Please, Jsobecky. You have one of the sharpest tongues on this board. I have been cut by it many, many times. This idea that you have been wounded and wronged by someone's opinion is getting to the point of absurd.

I could find 100 posts of yours where you slam someone for their ignorance, where you show blatant disrespect and much worse than was said to you here. You've been in hundreds of "tiffs" on the board.

The fact that the member you had a tiff with (this time) is a mod doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. These things happen. Let it go, just as you would with any other member. Like me.

Originally posted by jsobecky
this member now feels ostracized.

Oh please....having been on the receiving end of your rhetoric, I find that to be hypocritical and self-serving.

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by jsobecky
this member now feels ostracized.

Oh please....having been on the receiving end of your rhetoric, I find that to be hypocritical and self-serving.

Thank you. The piling on line starts right over there, behind the staff, BH, and Novus.

Since you all brought up Police Officers, I thought I would offer some advice...

Just advice from a "Seasoned" officer.. (Meaning old :lol

Why not just take a step back. Just walk away and don't think about all of this for awhile. Let things settle in your own minds and then come back and read everything again.

Remember the one thing we all have in common.

ATS

Taking a "step back" from a problem is a tried and true method of resolution used very effectively by police officers in domestic squabbles. Trust me it works.

Just keep remembering that one thing we all have in common...

ATS

Being members of ATS put you all in a very unique and wonderful position, especially if you have survived to be on here for some period of time and it appears you all have.

You may not think on it much, but you are all members of an intellectually elite among the average population. I have no idea what the average IQ is of ATS members, but I will guarantee it to be far above the norm.

Remember this little bit of knowledge as well.

Most people that have an argument can tell you what they argued over just a few days later. What we deem as being incredibly important today, will diminish in importance in just a short while.

Again trust me in this.

Accept that no one is perfect, not even you. Once you accept that, you can more easily forgive imperfection in others. So what if they made a mistake, how will that effect you tomorrow or next week?

Accept that not everyone will like you. I know it's hard to believe but some people don't even like Semper!!!!!! That's OK though, we get along just fine. I don't have to like you to talk to you or debate you. I also don't have to expect you to like me....

I can say all of this from a political stance that MANY on here abhor. I accept that they don't agree with me and in many instances, that makes it more fun.

I happen to like all of you that have taken a part in this thread and I hate to see you going at each other. Especially over something that we will all forget about in such a short period of time...

Let's just remember what we all have in common...

ATS

Semper

Originally posted by jsobecky
You want to condone personal attacks as "expressing opinion", go ahead.

What am I missing? What is the personal attack? Specifically.

I'll just add one little thing here.

Up until just about a week or two ago, as Moderators we were asked to try to not Moderate in threads that we're participating in. It wasn't always possible.

About 2 weeks ago, it became policy for Mods to not "Moderate" threads that we're active in.

You might have seen this prior to 2 weeks ago, but shouldn't be seeing it now.

...last time I saw this extent of derailment it was a 34 carriage frieghttrain that had jumped the tracks...

...can we keep the drama up out of it please...


Peace.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
That is - lines can be blurry.

I feel kind of out of place here, as I have not been around quite as long as many in this thread. But I have seen my fair share of internet happenings as they were and I am a firm believer in logic.

That said, FlyersFan, I must comment on the above quote and request a clarification of an implicit contradiction of it's use as an argument.

If the lines are blurry, in a way that subjectivity is being questioned, then what does it matter if the lines are blurry?

The entire 'argument' is predicated upon it!

I have noticed, not just in thread, but quite a few many places in the website, that there are many people making reactive statements, as in they don't consider what they are typing and how others will interpret their displayed terms. This world, and thusly this website, is a huge showcase of different perspectives and different levels of comprehension.

There are bound to be arguments. But to string out an argument regarding the expression of people who have been here and likely call this place a second home is in interesting action of futility because by the very nature those involved will invariably find a way to react defensively.

In this thread, we se it occurring on both sides of the argument.

But what is the difference? Slights?

It's a website! I logged on to argue with Masons. They are so infuriating that I took a deep breath and walked away.

Now I don't intend to get into any arbuments here, as I have found that I prefer reading what various other people have to say rather than be an active participant. But I wanted to drop in and point out the seeming absurdity of having an eight page long argument about "Why Can't I talk and enjoy ATS" when there are so many other aspects of ATS that has much more to offer our intelligence than a 'he said, she said' battle.

My last interesting point of interest:

Why is the expression of the owners and moderators of a website built to acknowledge and discuss the horrid aspects of our very real political and economic situations less important than a back and forth ping ponging of personal concerns?

In my opinion, you all should be making a better effort to work together against a greater enemy.

Im sorry that I had an attitude I just lost it when my only sanctuary for free speech and freedom of opinion was telling me that I could talk about anything, but what I wanted to talk about.

I stand by what I said no we dont have freespeech, nor free expression I dont appreciate the staff claiming we do but telling us we cant talk about this or that and we cant express our thoughts on this or that.

So though I might have had an attitude I was not wrong in saying, Dont treat us like fools give it to us straight we either have it or we dont and its very obvious that we dont have freedom of speech or freedom of expression like Skeptic Overlord claimed we had. I just found it rude they thought we wouldnt notice that fallacy.

I define Free expression as having the ability to express oneself and their opinions completely. Of course politeness does affect how I would express myself. But that would be up to me not the staff of ATS.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by caballero]

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Free expression is not a license to offend, obfuscate, or lie;

I agree. However, if your honest opinion is not intended to offend or obfuscate, how do you proceed? And lying about your honest opinion does not make much sense so I'll leave that alone.

Who determines what is offensive? Perhaps some took my comments on Tony Snow to be offensive. But on the same token, others did not. So who is "right"? How does anyone determine which way to judge that?


[edit on 7/13/08 by NovusOrdoMundi]

society determines what's offensive (if you're lucky) and it's a process

it's a cultural thing - and every culture has it's own agreement on what's OK - what's not

what we can say in public now as compared to what we could've said 50 years ago - is different

you can argue about what is better or worse - opinions vary - that's the point

it's about consensus - and that is a process - of evolution if you like

maybe it changes for the better in one persons opinion - and is degraded in the eyes of another

freedom of speech - expression - should be guaranteed

but you confuse your right to express yourself with the manner in which you express it

we can express our opinion - absolutely

we can't express our opinion with a gun

and words can metaphorically be pointed at someone's head the same as with a gun

it's about form and function

at the start of a debate - the rules of the debate are established - your argument has to conform to those rules - those are the rules that have been agreed on if we agree to enter the debate

a forum can - as far as I'm concerned - be considered a form of debate

this site has established the rules

unfortunately - I can't see the posts that were removed - so I can't comment myself on whether I believe they were playing by the rules or not

I can't know for certain what your argument is based on going by that thread - I can't see how bad bad really was - or wasn't

I do support your argument

but maybe it should be redirected - maybe you should really go after the ugly head of the whole thing instead of biting at the tail

start a new thread - how far is too far - and what's not far enough?

but, playing by the rules that are established as of now

you might not be able to change, or even modify the rules - this site isn't a democracy

this is their sandbox - and we're allowed to play in it

if we can't make our point within established guidelines - maybe the point can't be made

it'll be a long ugly thread - but - that's what this is about