Some Americans are supporting their troops, and they should be ashamed

I hear people all the time saying 'i'd go abroad and fight for freedom'
when you are losing freedom at home day by day

to go to another country to fight for freedom at home makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Not an ounce of logic can be found in that thought process.

People are dying, women are being raped, mass genocide, world oppression, fighting on the side of an oppressive foreign policy, blockades, embargos, oil profiteering, etc.....

Any informed and half-smart person would realize that there is no honor in for fighting for such a cause.

And the amount of people joining the army is a good measure of how many americans still think they are on the good side.

These people need to be educated, they need to be informed.
They need to be told not to go to war to make international bankers and other war profiteers more rich and to sustain their liviing in absolute comfort.

None of these people who employ such people have any faith in the currency of the country for which you are under the assumption you fight for.

These ppl are like sheep in the matrix, they should be told to fight within and not without

Being patriotic doesn't have to mean being pro-govt., it does and should only mean pro-people of the country to which you are patriotic of.

The beauty about this country is that every America has the right to criticize their country as they see fit but some people choose to take advantage of this freedom and abuse it.

This is exactly why we are losing our freedoms at home, because if we abuse it, we are going to lose it.

*wanted to take this down for the time being and think more about this issue instead of being so dogmatic. i recognize that the soldier is a human being and don't want to make the issue of "laying down arms" so black and white*

[edit on 13-7-2008 by justamomma]

Being patriotic doesn't have to mean being pro-govt., it does and should only mean pro-people of the country to which you are patriotic of.

Certainly food for thought, and I agree with this particular assessment.

However, I believe that a person can oppose what may be deemed as an unjust war, and still support the troops fighting it.

It truly saddens me to hear and read about the atrocities of war. When these soldiers return home from their tours of duty, they are changed men and women. Many are traumatized, and probably will be for life.

I support the troops. I also oppose the war.

Do not hate the arms, hate the brain.

If someone is tried for murder, they do not try their arm for murder - they try the person, and make sure their mind is the one behind the action.

It's a strained analogy, but instead of hating the troops you should be hating the ones who shipped them overseas.

It's a fact that a large percentage - I'd bet a large majority - of the active US military signed up for service because they did believe they would be protecting freedom. When Bush told them Saddam had WMDs, they believed him, just like most Americans did. It is not their fault they are fighting an unjust war.

If there is ever a situation where our freedoms are truly threatened (and one not by the US government under Bush) it will be the same soldiers fighting and dying for that.

I keep hearing people say that the troops should throw down there arms, that they should not do the governments dirty work.

Then why don't all us just stop paying taxes, this is where the support comes from, this is the money that drives the machine.

In the end we are all guilty because we all have and will continue to support this war by our money/taxes.

I support the troops, and unwillingly support this war with the taxes I pay!!!

The war needs to end and our troops All need to come home!!!

Originally posted by maria_stardust
However, I believe that a person can oppose what may be deemed as an unjust war, and still support the troops fighting it.

I'm sorry but you will have to explain how?
How can you love this country yet be pro-bankruptcy?

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
It's a fact that a large percentage - I'd bet a large majority - of the active US military signed up for service because they did believe they would be protecting freedom. When Bush told them Saddam had WMDs, they believed him, just like most Americans did. It is not their fault they are fighting an unjust war.

I know, I don't hate the soldiers
I feel bad for them in fact
They don't know better, that's the point of this thread

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
If there is ever a situation where our freedoms are truly threatened (and one not by the US government under Bush) it will be the same soldiers fighting and dying for that.

Don't be so naive
No it would not

It will be the people and I guarantee you that

I'm "naive' because I believe the US military would defend the US from attack from an outside invader?

Ok...

If Bush declares martial law or something similar it's a much different situation, I will give you that.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
but instead of hating the troops you should be hating the ones who shipped them overseas.

i hate NO human being. i value each and every life for what it is worth.

andrea yates (spelling?) said that she killed her children bc she was worried about them facing what we all may be facing here in the near future.

honestly, i can understand that mentality bc as a mother, i don't want my kids being used or abused and what is the best thing you can do to get a mother to comply? use her children against her.

HOWEVER, i do not support what she did as many of you i am sure do not. her intent, if she is telling the truth, was not one of harming her kids but bc she didn't want them to suffer indefinately at the hands of power hungry *snippers*. BUT IT WAS STILL WRONG AND NO ONE WILL DISAGREE.

THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED W/ GOOD INTENTIONS.

i LOVE the men and women in our military, but i recognize that THEY ARE IN THE WRONG. their accountability level may not be as high as those pulliing the strings, but they are STILL ACCOUNTABLE FOR MURDERING INNOCENT LIVES!!


what about the waco incident? do you support those that murdered a small group of ppl who were living in the middle of nowhere?

hmm.... if you support the troops BC they are part of our own despite the fact that the war is wrong, then in essence you support the fool who is the president of this country, pure and simple.

i think the misunderstanding of "patriotism" has warped some views. these soldiers lives, whether it is your brother or sister, best friend or cousin are NO MORE VALUABLE than the lives they are snuffing out.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Then why don't all us just stop paying taxes, this is where the support comes from, this is the money that drives the machine.

How do you stop paying taxes, it's automatically deducted from your paycheck.

For declaring taxes that's something else.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
I'm "naive' because I believe the US military would defend the US from attack from an outside invader?

When you said other than Bush I thought you meant Obama.

I thought you were refering to while being under another president and not an outside invader.

my bad

But what a scam that saying is
'Support our troops'
I rolled my eyes when I first heard it, the most 'cloaked' form of propaganda I've ever heard. It makes even those who completely disagree with these wars, say
'Well, ...Geeez...Uhhh?'

Support them how? Killing the evil doers? Securing oil for rich men? Keeping them in good morale? To keep motivated in a sea of BS?
Make them feel supportive somehow, then that will rub off onto others creating maximal support for the war as is possible under the situation.
'Support the troops' seems to me, is a quote spouted by war supporters to make anti-war people feel guilty somehow.

It's subtle propaganda at it's finest.

'Support bringing our troops home' Nah, it'll never catch on.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Then why don't all us just stop paying taxes, this is where the support comes from, this is the money that drives the machine.

In the end we are all guilty because we all have and will continue to support this war by our money/taxes.

very GOOD point! i did realize sometime back that if i were to speak against evil, i better make sure i am not in the company of evil myself.

you are right, if you are supporting this war through paying taxes then you have no right to tell the troops to lay down their arms.

i BEG the troops to please lay down your arms and i say it w/ a CLEAR conscience. i am NOT a citizen of this gov't and have cleared my life of any support of what they are doing.

just to chime in here....


....someone who does not support our troops likely does not deserve any of the freedoms that they are given by our troops.

I think you have over intellectualized this. Honestly. Why not ask some soldiers if THEY think they are doing good work. Taking pity on them for their ignorance smacks of elitism and snobbery.

Do i want to be in a war zone? No. I don't. But thank God that there are those who do. Just like I can't sew. Thank God someone can sew for me.

This is the role of society. Each with its own purpose.

Our nation was not founded so that there could be one off revolutions by the odd smattering of individuals. If we want a revolt, it must be done politically.

I know people who would claw your eyes out over this thread. People who have lost sons in Iraq. You are walking a VERY thin line, and I have to squint REAL hard to not see it as sedition.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


in can understand what you mean about txs being deducted from your paycheck.

for me, i am lucky i don't have to deal w/ this scenario as i work for myself.

i do wonder though about your situation and would think that YOU are not supporting this war, but rather your money is being stolen from you to support this war.

BUT, if you are to be consistent w/ expecting the troops to stand up against at whatever personal sacrifice would come, then yes, you too must stand up against your money being stolen from you even if it means making a personal sacrifice.

this is what they have been doing. they have made us feel that we have no choice but to comply and WE ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE..... we just don't want to make the choice bc we don't want to sacrifice ourselves and/or our comforts.


The Roots of Violence:
Wealth without work,
Pleasure without conscience,
Knowledge without character,
Commerce without morality,
Science without humanity,
Worship without sacrifice,
Politics without principles.

~ Gandhi



[edit on 13-7-2008 by justamomma]

As the poster and many folks responding realize,

first of all, they are NOT our troops.
they are under command of the interlocking directorate of the Fed/Bank of England/Bundesbank -- and yes, they will be the ones to enforce any martial law or major anti-war movement in the U.S.

second of all, the FED troops are over there protecting the heroin traffickers, such as bin Laden, who were trained and armed by the Fed & BOE's & Bundesbank private armies and assassines and deathsquads -- CIA, MI-6 & BND. The interlocking directorate of central bankers also launders the drug money, about 1-2 trillion dollars a year

third of all, the heroin-&-petroleum-&-international-banking industries are inseperable.

fourth of all, we need to eliminate the power of the real enemy, the 1% of the world that owns 99.99% of everything, and redistribute the wealth of the world evenly to every human being an equal share. see, 'The only hope for this country is democratic socialism & equal redistribution of wealth' discussion, at www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
....someone who does not support our troops likely does not deserve any of the freedoms that they are given by our troops.

So someone who does not support the killing of innocents to make rich and powerful people more rich and powerful while our country goes bankrupt doesn't deserve any rights?

Wow, what a statement.

Freedom given by our troops?

Understand I don't hate the troops, i feel bad for them. But they are all over the world making american sentiment worse and causing more terroism. It's called blowback.

But there's something else other than blowback, which is blowback's blowback.

More troops all over = more hate towards america = less rights for america.

Need I remind you of the FISA act?
Patriot Act

Think about it, they don't give us freedom, they help take it away.

As mentioned, you can't go abroad to fight for freedom at home, it just doesn't make sense and won't make sense ever either.

That's like creating havoc outside thinking it will make your home more tidy.

[edit on 13-7-2008 by ModernAcademia]

reply to post by ModernAcademia


The "innocents" were being killed by Hussein. This is why we invaded in the 90's. Part of the deal that he made to stay in power was that he would follow a strict set of rules laid out by the UN.

He consistently and obtusely failed. Before more innocents were killed, America acted. Now, the way in which the war was executed was nothing short of what you would expect from a bunch of teens. "Shock and Awe" was stupid, and that is the point that i divert from agreement with the war.

Should we be there? Yup. Did anyone lie? Probably, but not in the way that anti-bushies like to claim.

Keep in mind that a soldiers job is not to think for himself. It is to follow orders and make it happen without excuse. Thank God. I would hate for soldiers to think for themselves. We would end up with more Haditha's.

FISA, the Patriot Act...it doesn't effect me. I have nothing to hide. I am no terrorist. However, that notwithstanding, i agree that is is worrisome. I just fail to see how that is connected with our soldiers?

I didn't take the time to address the multiple informal fallacies used in the OP, and several of the first half dozen replies. I will, however, call out the one presented here. The soldiers have nothing to do with FISA or the Patriot Act. I like fish, but do not favor red herrings.

en.wikipedia.org...

I am curious why you would post that video. That seems like little more than a vulgar propaganda piece for a group like "Code Pink" or something.

I guess you are not interested in defending your position.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


first, let me kind of back down a bit. there is a misconception at the words "i do not support the troops" as meaning that i don't value their lives. i value them, along w/ others here, more than you give us credit for.

it has just become painfully obvious that unless the soldiers take the initiative upon themselves to "step down", they will NOT be coming home any time soon and the more they stay in that enviroment, the more they become used to violence and obeying orders w/ little regard to the conscience.......

i can't go over there and make them stop. if i could, i would. but to help bring light to the REAL situation so that others will start saying "I SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO SAY NO TO THE ORDERS AND DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE IT HOME" may give more of the ones that ARE (so far) good, decent, and caring men the morale they need to stand up to the true enemy.

right now, a lot of them know the majority of americans will not have their back bc we are only seeing what the gov't wants us to see. that can leave a person feeling pretty isolated and scared.


i am not looking for an arguement, but rather a civil discussion. please give me your views on the following:

look at the following site and read why these former soldiers feel this war not only needs, but MUST be stopped:

ivaw.org...

here is a father whose son is in iraq telling how he views the apathy of our leaders toward the soldiers:

"With any military family, most of them feel very isolated and afraid to speak out," Paul Vogel, whose son Aaron is posted in Iraq, told the Barrington (IL.) Courier-Review. "It's a very frustrating thing for a military family to realize they're paying the price for a war that, at least for military families, is really hard to get all patriotic about. It seems to be unwinnable and unending, and those are the worst words anyone in a military family could hear."

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