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Communion wafer held 'hostage' raises holy heck

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posted on Jul, 12 2008 @ 02:57 PM
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Communion wafer held 'hostage' raises holy heck


www.startribune.com

Paul Z. Myers, who teaches biology at the University of Minnesota, Morris, on his blog this week expressed amazement that a Florida college student who briefly took a wafer "hostage" from a church ceremony has been receiving death threats for an action that was characterized "a hate crime" by the Catholic League.

(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Jul, 12 2008 @ 02:57 PM
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The circus unfolding around this story is just about ridiculous. Frankly, I'm amazed to find that one can recieve death threats over keeping a 'cracker' rather than swallowing it. Then again, I've never taken religion too seriously so perhaps I'm entirely missing sthe point here. Some are actually drawing comparisons to kidnapping.


"It is hurtful," said Father Migeul Gonzalez with the Diocese. "Imagine if they kidnapped somebody and you make a plea for that individual to please return that loved one to the family."

Source

Personally, I can see why the Catholics might be a little upset about this but calling it a hate crime seems to be a bit of a stretch and 'kidnapping' would be completely out of the ball park.


Webster gave the wafer back, but the Catholic League, a national watchdog organization for Catholic rights claims that is not enough.

“We don’t know 100% what Mr. Cooks motivation was,” said Susan Fani a spokesperson with the local Catholic diocese. “However, if anything were to qualify as a hate crime, to us this seems like this might be it.”

Source

I'm unclear whether or not the Campus Ministry is still pursuing actions against Cook for keeping the cracker rather than digesting it. At any rate it has now escalated to the point of deploying armed police officers at Sunday Mass.


Orange County, FL -- One week after a University of Central Florida student snatched something sacred from church, armed UCF police officers stood guard during Sunday Mass to protect what Catholics call "The Body of Christ."

Source

Here is the blog post which initially "got the ball rolling"...
Christian Lunatics Issue Death Threats Over a Cracker Whether he will lose his university position over his comments here remains to be seen.

This blog offers a bit more of a 'reasonable' approach to the same content.

Wow. There are a surprising amount of issues rising from this incident. The guy who initially took the wafer charged that he was accosted in the church. The church alleges he committed a hate crime in taking the wafer. Cook and the blog guy both recieved death threats over this. Cook alleges that the school is improperly using funds with regard to religious bodies. And somewhere I read that as a result of this that security was being incresed at an election gathering (damned if I can find the source again though).

What a bizarre story....





www.startribune.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 09:50 AM
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I was finally able to find that link I mentioned before, between this story and the Republican National Convention (tenuous though it may be....) It was posted on the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights website.


“As a result of the hysteria that Myers’ ilk have promoted, at least one public official is taking it seriously. Thomas E. Foley is chairman of Virginia’s First Congressional District Republican Committee, a delegate to the Republican National Convention and one of two Republican at large nominees for Virginia’s Electoral College. His concern is for the safety of Catholics attending this year’s Republican National Convention in Minneapolis, Myers’ backyard. Accordingly, Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence. Given the vitriol we have experienced for simply exercising our First Amendment right to freedom of speech, we support Foley’s request.

Source

I'm still left wondering just who needs protection from whom here. As far as I can tell, the death threats are coming from the religious side of the equation. Funny how the threat of violence seems to have been innapropriately shifted to the other side.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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Leave it to a politician to recast this into a 'fear' issue. No action can be taken because it would have to tacitly equate the communion wafer as a 'person.' Violating separation of church and state. We'll see.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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How does one 'kidnap' an object. Second it was given to him.

Seems like the only trouble for this person should be some sort of 'sin' within the rules of the religion.

Religion is getting scary.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by SystemiK
keeping a 'cracker' rather than swallowing it.

Been reading Jack Chick? It's not a cracker. It's the Body of Christ.
If you believe it or not is of no matter. What matters is the Church,
and those in the Church, believe it.


Originally posted by roadgravel
Second it was given to him.

... to consume immediately. That is known to all Catholics when they receive Holy Communion. No one is to walk out with it. It is to be consumed in reverence.

This Webster person is completely wrong and even though the ALLEGED death threats are also wrong, the person who stole the Eucharist caused his own grief.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 
There is much that is wrong with this story. Why was that man watched so closely? There was a break down of trust between the man and that particular church. The Catholic church should send an authority figure to find out what is going on in that particular church. They should also publicly disown the fake christians who are making death threats. Just because someone claims to be Catholic does not give them the right to make death threats. The Catholic Church is regarded as a source of power which makes it a tempting target for infiltration by the enemy.


[edit on 13-7-2008 by eradown]



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I attended Catholic schools for my first 12 years of schooling. There was the idea taught that one consumed the wafer at the time it was received. I was never instructed that if one didn't it was a sin or to leave with it was a sin also. Could be they just figured a child would understand that point.

Given the way religion works, I am surprised a person 'kidnapping it' would not cause some automatic negation of what the wafer is and have it default to a non Christ entity. Given the all powerful aspect of God, this negation should be simple task. A built in method of the inability to abuse communion other than committing a sin for the attempt.

Could be teachings have changed.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Abuse of a tastless cookie???????

I'm sure glad the Catholic church has taken such a strong stance on "abuse"

I sure hope the parents of these cookies are able to forgive and move on.

Maybe the Church will re-locate these cookie abusers to a different diocese so they may continue abusing other cookies.

[edit on 13-7-2008 by wrathchild]

[edit on 13-7-2008 by wrathchild]



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by eradown
Why was that man watched so closely? There was a break down of trust between the man and that particular church.

Obviously with good cause.

Did the church really single him out to be watched? The priests and deacons are taught to watch those who receive holy communion in the hand and to make sure that they consume it before leaving their sight. There are many abuses of the Eucharist. (this story is one such example) Many occult groups love to get their hands on stolen consecrated Eucharists and pay money for them.

Perhaps it was the way he behaved or spoke in the church that caused the church to keep an eye out for him (IF they did keep an eye out for him). But from the news story I get the impression that he made sure people knew that he stole the Eucharist. It wasn't like he was trying to keep it a secret.


They should also publicly disown the fake christians who are making death threats.

Alleged threats. And considering the guy stole the Holy Eucharist and made sure people knew that he did, I have to wonder about his mental health. I also DEFINATELY wonder about his truthfulness. He's a thief afterall.


Originally posted by roadgravel
I was never instructed that if one didn't it was a sin or to leave with it was a sin also.

Then someone dropped the ball because it is definately considered a theft and sin by the church.


I am surprised a person 'kidnapping it' would not cause some automatic negation of what the wafer is and have it default to a non Christ entity.

The only way that Christ leaves The Eucharist is when the Eucharist itself is destroyed - either by the human body in digestion or if the Eucharist itself disolves - like in water. That's church teaching.


Originally posted by wrathchild
Abuse of a tastless cookie???????

Abuse of the Body of Christ. For believers, it is as if Christ were going through His Passion once again.

Your flippant remarks are childish. Perhaps for the sake of grownup discussion you might like to refer to the Eucharist in the neutral term of 'Holy Communion Wafer'? If you would consider that, it would be much nicer and more conductive for discussions.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 

What makes you think that those death threats do not fall under the definition of terrorist threats? Just because the man may be crazy does not mean he does not have enemies or rights. Jesus will not help the arrogant.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by roadgravel
 



Given the way religion works, I am surprised a person 'kidnapping it' would not cause some automatic negation of what the wafer is and have it default to a non Christ entity. Given the all powerful aspect of God, this negation should be simple task. A built in method of the inability to abuse communion other than committing a sin for the attempt.

I would hope so.
How about when Hillary took communion in a Catholic church and she is not even Catholic?
Did anyone give her death threats?
I would think that God would have nullified the wafer's status, in both cases.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

I've always wished that Catholic Churches would post rules as to who should recieve communion on their doors and who should not recieve communion. Protestants do not understand the sacraments and many protestants from time to go to Catholic Mass out of curriosity. To a casual observer it could appear that everyone recieves the waifer.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
I would think that God would have nullified the wafer's status, in both cases.

He didn't. That isn't how it works. The Eucharist remains the Eucharist no matter who receives it and no matter what happens to it.

THAT is why people get upset when the Eucharist is bashed or is physically treated with disrespect.


Originally posted by eradown
What makes you think that those death threats do not fall under the definition of terrorist threats?

What makes you think that he actually received any?


Originally posted by eradown
I've always wished that Catholic Churches would post rules as to who should recieve communion on their doors and who should not recieve communion.

It's printed in the missile (did I spell that correctly). However, you are right, it would be nice if it were also posted in a more obvious place.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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If there complaint is legit . Or seen to be . Then i propose we charge the church with desecration of human remains . See how they like there own crazy BS when its them getting tossed in jail.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by SystemiK
 


Now that the heisted hostaged host has been returned, perhaps it can be auctioned off and the
profits used to pay off a few of those lawsuits brought by folks who had been sexually abused by priests as kids.

sapphoq



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 





Many occult groups love to get their hands on stolen consecrated Eucharists and pay money for them.


Occultists have NOTHING to do with the catholic church or Eucharist wafers. Occultists really have nothing do do with any religion.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by SystemiK
 
Stories like these occur because all churches attract obnoxious busy bodies who are forever on the prowl for fault in other people when they should take a closer look within themselves. Catholic Churches are so hugely overpopulated because few men are attracted to the priesthood.Priests are like the old woman who has so many children she doesn't know what to do. Sometimes religious hypocrites get out of hand. Some click apparently did not like this man. They were watching him too closely. He freaked out and decided not to eat the waifer and keep it as evidence. I think some of the parishioners were playing mind games on the man . Bottom line is this sort of craziness will cause people to scout around for another church. I saw something similar happen to a protestant church that had a gossipy sewing circle atmosphere.




[edit on 13-7-2008 by eradown]



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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I'm sorry, but a wafer is a wafer. I know what Catholics believe. But they're wrong. You're free to believe whatever you want. But if you believe that any inanimate object is the "body of christ", don't be surprised when other people treat it as an inanimate object.



posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 08:11 PM
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Haha, this is so funny.

One time I went to a church with one of my friends who was catholic a couple years ago. I called the cracker a potato chip and he got mad. So I was saying stuff like they must of gotten those out of a bag of lays. Other people heard and gave me dirty looks so I stopped.

Religion is a very mysterious subject to me.


[edit on 13-7-2008 by gen0cide]



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