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Why not a Ballistic missile/Attack sub?

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posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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gee lets look at all the soviet ssn's that are double hulled.

All victor class ssns.

the alfa class ssns

the akula class ssns

I could go on but you get the point.

Lets not even go into all the ssgn. ssbn etc that are double hulled to.


not all the tech is exotic, a lot of it is extremely exotic.

no the tech is much more novel and out of the box in thinking than that. some of it is so simple nobody even thinks about it or would even wander mentally into correlating some tech thats right in front of our eyes with their secret past being invented or developed by the navy.

I'm sure the soviets/russians have way to intermittantly track our US subs occasionally. but not reliably enough to hit a boat with a supercavitating torp. it's easy to make false signatures.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by BASSPLYR]




posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by BASSPLYR
not all the tech is exotic, a lot of it is extremely exotic.

no the tech is much more novel and out of the box in thinking than that. some of it is so simple nobody even thinks about it or would even wander mentally into correlating some tech thats right in front of our eyes with their secret past being invented or developed by the navy.

I'm sure the soviets/russians have way to intermittantly track our US subs occasionally. but not reliably enough to hit a boat with a supercavitating torp. it's easy to make false signatures.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by BASSPLYR]


Is there a basis for this? Do you have reliable or personal evidence of it?



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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yes.

I do have a reliable source on this. we have some seriously spooky stuff hidden under the skin of those boats.

all that being said I like lots of your posts in this thread.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 05:18 AM
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the reason russian boats are double hulled is for deep diving ability - that is well documented;

and how do you actually know that the russians can track `maybe on the third thursday in september when the sun is shining` a US boat? how do you know they don`t wander around the back end of all the boomers day in and day out ? no one does so your guessing based upon the `USA first everyone else sucks`.

the russian surface fleet is designed to support the sub fleets operations , and yet you just wave off with the flick of the wrist all the smart `toys` the russians have as being `in the wrong direction` , the P-700 is a CBG killer and you just right of the box discount it.

maybe the US are heading in the wrong direction.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by BASSPLYR





No the tech is much more novel and out of the box in thinking than that. some of it is so simple nobody even thinks about it or would even wander mentally into correlating some tech thats right in front of our eyes with their secret past being invented or developed by the navy.

I'm sure the soviets/russians have way to intermittantly track our US subs occasionally. but not reliably enough to hit a boat with a supercavitating torp. it's easy to make false signatures.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by BASSPLYR]
Please show some proof, or else your just anther angery Yank BABBLER.



[edit on 17-7-2008 by Lambo Rider]



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
and how do you actually know that the russians can track `maybe on the third thursday in september when the sun is shining` a US boat? how do you know they don`t wander around the back end of all the boomers day in and day out ? no one does so your guessing based upon the `USA first everyone else sucks`.


I'd also like to hear the basis for what Russia can and cannot track and how the USN is able to create these "false signatures" to foil the crafty Russians.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by BASSPLYR
we have some seriously spooky stuff hidden under the skin of those boats.


I've heard stories about the specially configured boats like Parche, Halibut and others. The typical fleet subs get periodic upgrades and test new equipment from time to time.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 03:32 PM
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First of all I am not some angry yank american. And I don't call others prissy limyies either. Or snobbish arrogant frogs. cause 90 percent of the people victimized by those stereotypes aren't actually guilty of perpetuating those stereotypes. so you shouldn't resort to name calling either. It's not fit for this forum of conversation anyways. Why would you assume that I'm angry. I'm not. You sound a bit angrier than me.

Never said America first all other countries suck. thats your own insecurity putting words into other people mouths.

I've said before america has some really crappy products. like the M16, like our president, like our current economy, like our cars, like half of the tools we give US soldiers to go out into the field with, like our music (not all of it, but the mainstream stuff...wheeeew yikes!)

like our international policies at the moment, like our health/medical community which is failing the US people horribly (the US has one of the least healthy and disease ridden population of just about all first world nations), like our failing education system, well you get the point. I am not so myopic as to think that america is the greatest country in the world. we're often hypocrites like when we shop at wal-mart and the label says made in america but in actuality it's made from slave labor in sweatshops in US territories like in the marianas islands.

the US sucks at a lot of things. we don't build the best everything, but when it comes to naval subs we do. and I would put the UK's boats ahead of russian ones.

as to revealing sources. Hell no!!!! don't even ask. when people tell me things in confidence I am not going to reveal what they have entrusted in me to know nor would I compromise the person telling me. and I would extend the same favor to any one of you guys. so don't get on my case for having morals.

the US sub fleet likes to stay one step ahead of our neighbors friend and foe. we succeed at it.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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also this thread isn't about which countries sewer pipe is bigger or better, it was about Deltaboy's inquiry into the feasibility of converting ssn's into ssbn's not to do the Mods job but lets stick to the topic at hand. all of us myself included have gotten off onto a tangent.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 12:09 AM
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Just curious. where is it documented that soviet subs have double hulls to dive better. I was always made to understand that double hulled subs have 3 times the reserve boyancy as a single hulled sub AND that the double hull allows a sub to absorb a larger blow from a torpedo with less damage. didn't know a double hull had any barring on the depth the inner pressure hull can take in hydrostatic pressure.

also why would the soviets have a greater need to dive deeper than US subs? if anything US subs would because they preform a wider array of missions. some requiring one to dive deep. also underwater speed contests are irrelevant. know what is relevant? how quite a sub is at tactical speed usually around 2-7 knots. not 35 balls to the walls we can hear you from two oceans over fast.

There are times where a soviet/russian sub might have the upper hand in a conflict with even a 688 maybe an akula II under the perfect conditions, but I'd say at least 80% of the time even an 688 would win. and that doesn't even get into the seawolfs and virginias.

Also in regards to the supercavitating torpedo. pretty sure NAVSEA was working on them a few years before the russians. they discontinued development of them for a reason. because although scary on paper aren't very practical at all in attacking other subs. and if you want to attack a surface ship you would use an asroc anyways. not he big bad weapon that people are getting excited about but navies aren't.

The US navy, well all navies worth their salt, know how to counter supercavitating torpedoes and they aren't with other supercavitating torpedoes.

Which realistically in an underwater dogfight would be a last ditch revenge weapon. oh and they better had not miss. which could be easy to do when the torpedo can't turn worth a damn, and the enemy sub would have been spotted and taken care of long before they could get into any position that would make a supercavitating torp of any use. Also what idiot wants a noisy torpedo when it's well know that the US like to hunt in pairs. Even try it and the other sub you aren't tracking will wax you and you won't even see it coming.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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you say in one post lets keep to the topic at hand - then in another ask about russian subs!


anyway


its about the ability the maneuver - torpedo`s have a crush depth as well , and *most* of the time you don`t expect someone to slide up from deep beneath you;

forget what the movies show - if a sub can take 2 or 4 hits - vs 1 that can take 1 hit ; then the better armoured boat is the `winner`

as for super cav torps - snce the US don`t field them , how can they have `uber` tactics against them? since removing diesel boats the threat was discounted as being nothing vs nuke boats - and yet the swedish AIP boat hired to test was such an eye opener , since they couldn`t actually find the damn thing - and it sank 1/2 the US fleet , they went back to the drawing board for hunting subs.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 




its about the ability the maneuver - torpedo`s have a crush depth as well , and *most* of the time you don`t expect someone to slide up from deep beneath you;


You want to rethink this a bit Harlequin.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


err why? deeper water is colder water which effects sound gradients ; and there is a finite limit to how deep anything can go for example the UK Mark 24 Tigerfish (comparable to the mark48MOD1) has a crush depth of 1400 feet , in comparison the alpha has an opertaing depth of 1700 feet - and go down to at least 3000 feet before crush, reports (although like anything on the net) give the alpha down to 1300m (4000 feet) without crush

the 688`s don`t dive that deep its a very very long way down in the cold deep.

the seawolves can dive much deeper than the LA boats and are also faster if needed.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 05:00 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


ahhh..sorry olde man..If I mislead you..I was referiing to the .."most of the time you dont expect someone to slide up from beneath you...not the depth statistics/figures. But you are correct in that it is about the ability in the maneuver. Spot on there.

Thanks,
Orangetom



[edit on 19-7-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 06:12 PM
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Sorry about getting off topic regarding the soviet subs again, last time from me. Guilty. I have a question though regarding converting ssn's to carry ballistic missiles.

Although I don't think it's a great Idea for an ssn. I do think it's a great idea to use the ssbns as ssgns to launch ass loads of cruise missiles at a potential enemy. the subs are quiet. they can get into some pretty good spots to launch the cruise missiles and get out safe. I'm glad that a few of the subs are being converted to this function.

what are the opinions on this development amongst everybody on this board.

Is it a kick ass idea, only pretty cool, just sorta cool, ehhh who cares, or stupid idea-lets load those puppies up with intercontinental nukes? just curious-personally I think it a fine idea and a good use of the boats.
whats your opinion.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by BASSPLYR
 


BASSPLYR,

I think it is a great idea. It does two things...gets more milage out of these olde boats while complying with treaty agreements. It also gets more years out of a very very expensive taxpayer investment. I dont know if they will keep them around as long but I think of it as getting the kind of milage and years as is continuing with the B52 fleet.

Great Idea.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Lets try out this scenerio for stealth and capabilitys...ie ..training. Training like under a Master.

When I worked more down on the piers.....weather allowing ..I liked to watch the fish in the middle of the night (graveyard shift) feeding on the minnows on the surface. THe minnows were attracted to feeding under the powerful pier lights...and hence drawing a predator called a Striped Bass.

Striped Bass are very agressive feeders. Mostly you would see them in the shadows created by the pier lights. They would be lined up in parallel rows...looking into the tide flow ...waiting for a minnow to get within striking distance. Then.....BAM!!!!!!!! they would quickly dart out in a lightening strike...take the minnow ...then dart back in to the shadows under the pier. IT happens very very fast.
In submarine parlance...this would be called shoot and scoot...or a snapshot.


Now ..the remarkable and more rare a thing to watch ..is a Striped Bass who is a genuine Master at the game. They dont sit in the shadows waiting ...they do something quite different. They slow and steadily meander ...in the current/tide...steering slowly left then right..matching turn for turn the minnows feeding. Slowly closing the gap...on these minnows...quietly..steadily ...stealthly....hence ..the Mastery of the technique. It is quite remarkable thing to observe. The minows dont even seem to be aware that the Striped Bass is even stalking them.
Then quite unusually....this Striped Bass...this Master....in the middle of the slow steady, stealthy meandering turn...will eat one of the minnows at the back of the school. It happens in such an unusual yet unremarkable manner that the rest of the minnow school doesn't even spook ..and havent a clue that one of them has been eaten. Talk about a Master in Operation!!! It is as if this Master has fed...eaten and not even broken out in a sweat as do the younger bucks.

Now..apply this to submarine operations...under a Master!! A Master who can think both inside and outside the box and translate/transfer this performance... this confidence to his crew/boat.

Just some random thoughts.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 19-7-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jul, 20 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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Some very good thoughts indeed. A very good analogy. Didn't know any of that info on striped bass feeding behavior. very cool. even better that you get to watch these hunters from time to time while on the job. not that your job is boring, I don't see how it could be, but to get to watch that is a great extra perk.

Fishing is something I enjoy a lot. I usually go out into the channel islands and fish at a few spots my buddies know about. They're serious fishermen and enter all of the halibut derby's etc... they tell me all about the feeding behaviors of whatever we are going for on the particular day, how to look for natural signs of bate schools like watching the birds or for kelp patties, figuring out where the fish are going to be on that day depending on the water temps and currents. For bass I usually fish Sand, Calico, and white sea. but I've never gone after a striped bass that I know of. Got tagged by a sculpin once and that burned like hell. Still have a little scar on my shin where it got me. Other than watching them can you tell me if they are fun to catch. Sand bass are unbelievably stupid and you can just pull them right up without a fight. maybe striped bass could offer a better challenge to set the hook on and land.

SO, to pseudo quote Jet Li. It's not the martial art but the mind behind he fighter that wins, or to quote Richard Marcinko. It doesn't matter which hammer you've got as long as you know the proper technique for driving nails. Obviously a better tool always helps but it's still really the man behind the tool in the end.



posted on Jul, 20 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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BASSPLYR,
Yes..I thought so too that it was a good analogy to certain aspects of Submarine Operations. Not directly.. but to seperate the men from the boys so to speak.

As to Striped Bass..they have been reintroduced into this river after a long abscence. I am very gratified to see them coming back to these waters. My understanding is that they have been interbread with other bass to form a freshwater adaptable Striper common in lakes in this country from coast to coast.

Stripers are a very agressive feeder and also a good fighter on the end of the line. The Striper embodies everything I like in a fish ...a very fine meal and a good fight on the end of the line. IF you know how to do it you can peel the skin right off them..no scaling needed....then cut the fillet off for a very fine piece of meat. A huge plus. You cannot do this with all species of fish.
Setting the hook is not all that difficult due to the aggressive nature of them..but then you are into a good fight...depending on the kind of tackle you are using. I have caught them on rods ..and also handlines. Handlines can be a bit trickey in that you can cut your fingers to the bone getting them up and out of the water. But dont let that get you down...if you have fishing in your blood...it wont stop you...not one bit. We use mostly artificial baits here...plastic minnows, plastic shad lures...Worms...with spinner bait attachments...etc. They seem to like live bait..with action..though they will also bite crab, and bloodworms. Eels work good too with the larger ones. However like alot of fish ...when they become to large...they are not as good to eat....something lost in the flavor when they become so olde. I do not fish for trophys..I like fish on my plate and in my freezer. A simple photograph will suffice for me.

Fishing is also something I too enjoy alot. Something to that olde saying about a bad day fishing is better than a good day at work.

It is indeed the mind..or the soul if you like... behind any endevour in which is often the telling difference.

I remember working with an olde man..one evening as a young buck on this job. The previous shift has struggled for 5 hours with trying to get out a small broken tap from a hole in a large nut. Mostly they had waited for the next shift to come on and replace them...ie ..they rode the clock out on this one. I followed the olde man down to the job. He told me to take my lockpicks out and use them to carefully pick out the pieces of broken tap from the flutes in this hole. I spent about 30 minutes doing this. Then he told me to go get the appropriate tap extractor....which I did. Then he inserted the tap extractor....put his 8 inch adjustable wrench on said tap extractor. There upon he asked me for my hammer. Giving it to him...he proceeded to tap the side of this large nut in the side of which was this broken tap. He put tension in the removal direction on the tap extractor while smacking the large nut with my hammer. The broken tap...jumped out in the removal direction...and he proceeded to do this again...and again..and again. In about 15 minutes he had removed the tap and told me to clean it up and make up the nut to the pipe union...to complete this job...he was going to get a cup of coffee.
Once again..I was left standing there with my mouth open ..just like in the Stephen Spielburg movies....ET et al. I couldnt believe what I had just seen...he had done in about 20 minutes what the previous shift had not done in over 5 hours. And he was more worried about getting a cup of coffee.

I began after this to see ...there is often a great difference ..a gulf... in the masters and the run of the mill folks in any trade. This was not something I have ever read in any book. I can assure you I have put this specific knowlege to use several times since those early days. I have also not forgotten this old man..may he rest in Peace.

Nonetheless ....it makes me wonder how good some of the Boat crews and skippers really are in knowlege/experience which is not necessarily found in any books.

Gotta get ready to shove off.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 20 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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Hey I was just talking to my buddy phil a few minutes before I read your post and I mentioned striped bass. His reply. "Yeah! That'll be good! Good Idea! " He knew about a few places to go striped bass fishing and we agreed that when the time is right to catch them we'd head out and go for it. You said they like bate with a lot of action. Any lures you'd recommend or rig setups? know you talked about all that briefly but any line you like to use. mono filaments? etc.

I haven't gone fresh water fishing in a few years. Last time was rainbow trout and some small mouth bass at the local fishery where they allow you to go out in rented 10' aluminum outboard and fish in an artificial lake/reservoir.

You're right a bad days fishing is better than just about any day at work. It's quite, peaceful, just you, the boat, the rocking with the sea and the fish...and a few beers. Maybe a few good friends...and their beers.

I know what you mean between run of the mill folks, the good...and the difference between them and the masters.

I used to study Aikido/Hopkido a while ago. Used to study it as a teenager and early 20's. Haven't practiced it in a while. But I remember back to when the master used to take his blackbelts and do demonstrations on the local public access. not to drum up new students but to display japanese cultures and the art form it's self. He was an old guy originally from okinawa moved to LA decades ago. had a small studio where he taught aikido. SO we were doing this public access show one evening and we were in a rush to the studio, which was really the backroom at the local cable companies offices, when we realized that we had forgot the wooden knife we used in the knife self defense demonstration. The master said don't worry about it went to the kitchenette off set and grabbed a 6 inch chefs knife and gave it to the student who was going to play the attacker in the demonstration. We were all a little queasy with this idea but not the master.

He went on with the demonstration, the student coming at him with a real kitchen knife...if the master wasn't really a master or screwed up in the slightest it would have been stitches time. He confidently and with ease tossed the student around like a rag doll. the knife never even had a chance. it was the masters game his ball and his bat and the knife wasn't even going to score. It sorta wasn't even a fair fight. We all just stood there and watched with our jaws hanging down in awe much like you described in your experience. The display proved that not all men are created equal. And we learned on that day just why he was called master and we were just blackbelts and students.

I too wonder what the crews and captains on the US subs are like in terms of efficiency and experience...how well trained they really are.

I have come to the conclusion, and I am just speculating here, that they have the finest crews the navy can train with the finest captains the navy has serving on those boats. I would expect that that combination of training, honor, experience, and determination and pride create the most potent synergy one could hope to have in a boat as fine as those of the US sub fleet.

That coupled with undoubtably the finest support back at home in the means of the best, brightest engineers, workers and dock workers the US people can offer, and I suspect the world, that the US has many masters indeed serving every aspect of the US sub fleet. from those who serve on board to those who build them and maintain them. And yes that makes a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference. And gives us all the advantage.




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