Obama Calls For Mandatory Government Service

reply to post by Johnmike


The societies that have mandatory service such as Israel, which despite sempers rabid rants about liberal=Democratic=socialist/communist is a capitalist society, has far greater social cohesion and involvement than we do.

Its not ALL about the individual Johnmike thats a very egotistic and self centered approach... the individual as part of a society needs to contribute or he is little more than a parasite.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by grover]

Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by semperfortis
Keep this in mind people...

It is NOT MANDATORY for each individual state to conform to Federal Mandates on Speed restrictions, Exit Sign Design and Road Construction; BUT ; If they do not, they lose millions in Federal Tax Dollars.

See. I've been telling you all along and obviously Semper agrees with me that it is not mandatory. Thanks for clearing that up.

I think you're intentionally misconstruing Semper's point Hal. How many states do you know of that don't comply to the Federal mandates? Do you honestly think they're going to pass up all those millions of dollars by not falling into lockstep with the Feds?

Obama can CALL a thing voluntary and it makes it all better huh?

Welcome to the upcoming...

United Soviet States of America

Semper

I could see complaining about it if they raised taxes to pay for it, which in that case you would only be getting your own money back, or if it causes tuition to go up which would in effect cost more for education. Some of you I'm sure would rather not pay taxes to begin with and not have any program, but I think you have to get beyond that and see that this may be an opportunity for some to gain experience that they otherwise would not get.

Don't worry, he'll increase your taxes as well. There's no possible way he can implement all the handout programs he wants without doing so. As for gaining experience.. I think most people would rather decide for themselves when and what type of experience they obtain.

The same people that don't want to pay for taxes are the same ones that say everyone is responsible for themselves and their families. How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?

Forcing someone to work for the state isn't going to benefit their family. It will simply take what little free time they have away, and further erode the nuclear family. There's nothing beneficial about forced servitude.

Originally posted by grover
Its not ALL about the individual Johnmike thats a very egotistic and self centered approach... the individual as part of a society needs to contribute or he is little more than a parasite.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by grover]

Rugged Individualism is about as American as it gets grover. These were the type of people that founded our country.

The belief that all individuals, or nearly all individuals, can succeed on their own and that government help for people should be minimal. The phrase is often associated with policies of the Republican party and was widely used by the Republican president Herbert Hoover. The phrase was later used in scorn by the Democratic presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman to refer to the disasters of Hoover’s administration, during which the stock market Crash of 1929 occurred and the Great Depression began.

[edit on 7/14/08 by LLoyd45]

reply to post by semperfortis

Although your reply is exactly the response I expected from you, I would like to see you address my last question.

Originally posted by Hal9000
How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?

[edit on 7/14/2008 by Hal9000]

reply to post by LLoyd45


and rabid egotism will tear it apart.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
I think you're intentionally misconstruing Semper's point Hal. How many states do you know of that don't comply to the Federal mandates? Do you honestly think they're going to pass up all those millions of dollars by not falling into lockstep with the Feds?

First of all, I was being sarcastic, but he did say it was not mandatory. Your analogy isn't quite the same issue, because this program only involves $4,000 for college students that might otherwise not be able to afford it, and the Federal money for States is more like billions for road construction. The reason for requiring some standards for highways is so one could travel between states without getting confused as well having safety regulations. Each State agrees to standards like these when becoming part of the Union.

I could see complaining about it if they raised taxes to pay for it, which in that case you would only be getting your own money back, or if it causes tuition to go up which would in effect cost more for education. Some of you I'm sure would rather not pay taxes to begin with and not have any program, but I think you have to get beyond that and see that this may be an opportunity for some to gain experience that they otherwise would not get.

Don't worry, he'll increase your taxes as well. There's no possible way he can implement all the handout programs he wants without doing so. As for gaining experience.. I think most people would rather decide for themselves when and what type of experience they obtain.

As I have pointed out many times, an applicant can choose among a whole variety of service that would give them a choice of what experience they can gain.

The same people that don't want to pay for taxes are the same ones that say everyone is responsible for themselves and their families. How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?

Forcing someone to work for the state isn't going to benefit their family. It will simply take what little free time they have away, and further erode the nuclear family. There's nothing beneficial about forced servitude.

If they receive tax credits that pay for education, that would free up other money to pay for the other things they might need. As far the time they would spend on this, I would hardly call 100 hours over a year taking "what little free time they have away". You are really exaggerating, but that is what you folks do isn't it? You have to, because it's not true.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Rugged Individualism is about as American as it gets grover. These were the type of people that founded our country.

Well Loyd you can dream about the past all you want with all that free time you have, but this country is not the open plains it was back then. You cannot go around just anywhere cutting down trees to heat your house or build your home. You can't hunt anywhere you would like for food. We have a few more hundred million people here now that weren't around back then.

Not too long ago, my grandfather moved to the area I live now because that was where the work was. He was an unskilled laborer and could make a decent wage to support a family. This country is not like that anymore. Every job that pays enough to support a family requires either a trade skill or college degree to qualify for it. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn one of these skills and we all have to pitch in to make that happen. If we don't there will be a whole segment of underclass people that will never get ahead because we don't create opportunities that our forefathers had. Is that so hard to figure out?

Originally posted by Hal9000
Your analogy isn't quite the same issue, because this program only involves $4,000 for college students that might otherwise not be able to afford it, and the Federal money for States is more like billions for road construction. The reason for requiring some standards for highways is so one could travel between states without getting confused as well having safety regulations. Each State agrees to standards like these when becoming part of the Union.

$4,000 dollars is a drop in the bucket nowadays with tuitions fees increasing right along with inflation. This is also a useless incentive since most students will never even come close to earning enough to take advantage of it.

As for the mandatory Federal compliance on road projects, when they must comply to get funded, it isn't voluntary. It's more like: "Do as we say or suffer the consequences.." Some choice.

As I have pointed out many times, an applicant can choose among a whole variety of service that would give them a choice of what experience they can gain.

They're being forced to participate, so offering a pre-selected set of choices is not voluntary either.

Will the choice of saying "No" going to be an option as well? And If you do say "No" to the so-called voluntary community service, will you still get your Federal assistance? I doubt it..

If they receive tax credits that pay for education, that would free up other money to pay for the other things they might need. As far the time they would spend on this, I would hardly call 100 hours over a year taking "what little free time they have away".

They could also be using that 100 hours to study, relax, or have a life. Nobody want's to be mandated into service. You can't force people to be compassionate or caring, it has to come from within.

You are really exaggerating, but that is what you folks do isn't it? You have to, because it's not true.

What type of folks might that be Hal? People who can see through all the BS, and don't like to be told what to do by the government? Yeah, that's the kind of person I am. If I want to volunteer, I'll do it on my terms, or not at all. Nobody forces me to do anything.

Originally posted by Hal9000
[Well Loyd you can dream about the past all you want with all that free time you have, but this country is not the open plains it was back then. You cannot go around just anywhere cutting down trees to heat your house or build your home. You can't hunt anywhere you would like for food. We have a few more hundred million people here now that weren't around back then.

Not too long ago, my grandfather moved to the area I live now because that was where the work was. He was an unskilled laborer and could make a decent wage to support a family. This country is not like that anymore. Every job that pays enough to support a family requires either a trade skill or college degree to qualify for it. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn one of these skills and we all have to pitch in to make that happen. If we don't there will be a whole segment of underclass people that will never get ahead because we don't create opportunities that our forefathers had. Is that so hard to figure out?

You know, if more people practiced this behavior there wouldn't be a need for free healthcare, welfare, or foodstamp programs. Nowadays though people want to sit on their butts, and get a handout from the government in lieu of actually earning their keep. It's no wonder our society is as screwed up as it is. Nobody, and that includes the government, owes me, you, or anyone else a living.

It's not a lack of opportunities that have created these underclasses Hal, but a lack of motivation and a sense of entitlement. They would rather be locked into a cycle of poverty, than get up off their duffs and try to improve their situation. Why work for a living if you can sponge off somebody else? This is the most serious problem facing Americans today.

[edit on 7/14/08 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
$4,000 dollars is a drop in the bucket nowadays with tuitions fees increasing right along with inflation. This is also a useless incentive since most students will never even come close to earning enough to take advantage of it.

No but if they qualify they can get other assistance or student loans. At 35% tax rate on $4,000 for 100 hours comes out to be $14.00 and hour. I would guess that some would agree with you that it isn't enough and wish they could do more.

Will the choice of saying "No" going to be an option as well? And If you do say "No" to the so-called voluntary community service, will you still get your Federal assistance? I doubt it..

If they qualify, absolutely there are many grants they can apply for and government sponsored student loans are also available. this is just an incentive program to volunteer some of their time to learn a great value in life.

They could also be using that 100 hours to study, relax, or have a life. Nobody want's to be mandated into service. You can't force people to be compassionate or caring, it has to come from within.

You mean they can spend that time sitting on their butts and not working for a living? Isn't that what you dislike?

What type of folks might that be Hal? People who can see through all the BS, and don't like to be told what to do by the government? Yeah, that's the kind of person I am. If I want to volunteer, I'll do it on my terms, or not at all. Nobody forces me to do anything.

Folks like you in cutting through the BS, as you say, create your own and are just as guilty as those you despise.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
that neocons suffer from selective reading.

Newsflash .. those of us voting for Ron Paul are not neocons.

i'm inclined to see lloyd's view on this. the service sounds too much like violation of the 13th. i ask you this question if the service was required to finish high school would you consider it mandatory. i feel that the wording is to open on how he plans on implementing this service. also i will be voting ron paul as well long live the rloveution.

reply to post by Hal9000


Oh that is too easy...

Live the life I did...

I had no parents, no support group, just my Granny and her 125 dollars or so a month to raise me.

I worked.. HARD.. from the age of 7 when she took me from the Orphanage and to the farm.

I wore work boots to school and work jeans when they were definitely NOT in fashion.

According to Grover, I was a parasite.

To me a parasite is someone living on Government subsistence without the gumption to get up and do an honest days work.. Now THAT is a parasite and programs like this will breed more and more of them.

NO ONE.. I repeat NO ONE I know now has it as poor as I did. No TV, No DVD player, No new clothes each year, we heated the house with the wood I carried in each night or maybe some coal from time to time when one of my wayward uncles would bother to show up.. Just hard work until sundown, reading the bible and off to bed to do it all again tomorrow. I made sure that each year I dug the outhouse hole at least 100 yards away from the house so as not to pollute the spring. I bathed in a tin pail until I went away to college. Where I worked for my tuition 40+ hours a week and attended school full time by the way.

And I am only 49, so it was NOT the 1920's. We were just REALLY poor, not like the poor today.

Do I want sympathy? NOT ON YOUR LIFE.. I am the man I am today because of my Granny and how she taught me to work hard for what I wanted. Not to sit on my tail and expect someone to give it to me.

So NO, I don't suffer laziness well, nor do I suffer those that don't want to do anything with their lives and expect MY tax dollars to support them.

All these poor people with their DVD players, fancy tennis shoes and Ipods... NO, Not for a minute will you tell me they can NOT pull themselves up from whatever position life hands them. I did, they can as well.

That is the real difference here. Instead of a "Hand-up" , Obama, like all Liberal/Socialists wants to give a "Hand-out'....

And the biggest ones crying for this are the very same ones that don't want anyone to have more than they do no matter how hard or for how long they have worked for it.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
I worked.. HARD.. from the age of 7 when she took me from the Orphanage and to the farm.

You're not the only one who has worked hard, but lucky for you you are one of the few that has gained from it. Good for you.

Lot's of people work hard, or even HARD, but they're still poor as dirt.

Our system is not set up for us all to be successful no matter how hard you work.

reply to post by ANOK

Our system is not set up for us all to be successful no matter how hard you work.

I don't believe that.

And it is not only hard work, but perseverance as well.

When I first started in police work and for several years I qualified for food stamps. I was raising my two daughters and it was VERY hard. But I followed my Grannies example and refused to accept anything I had not worked for and you know what? We made out OK.

I persevered and stuck with it. Oh I had set backs of course. Until the past few years, I did not know what it was like to not work at least two jobs; at times three. My girls did not get brand name shoes and clothes, but they were dressed and fed and taught the blessings of working for what they get. They are now working their way through college. I help, but they work.

So NO, saying the "System" is this or the "System" is that is a cop out.. No pun intended. It is all about the individual and their desire to succeed and to stop blaming everything except themselves for their failures.

Semper

Originally posted by LLoyd45
What it's saying is: If they wish to receive federal funding, they'll will provide and implement these programs. The "No Child Left behind" program was the same kind of deal. They either provided access to the student to recruiters along with contact information, or they would not receive federal funding. Every school does so now.

It's mandatory for the state to provide and implement these voluntary programs. They're actually giving the kids more choices. They can choose to take part in the programs or not. I think its a waste of tax dollars, honestly, but calling it "mandatory government service" is ridiculously misleading.

It looks like it is voluntary, but watch for language in the bill that makes it hard to get to college w/out doing it. This is nothing new. Proposals like this have been coming on since the late 70's from both parites. Gives a people a sense of who they are if they talk about us all pitching in.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I don't believe that. And it is not only hard work, but perseverance as well.

You forgot Luck

Believe it or not, I don't care, history proves me right.

'Hard work makes you wealthy' is a capitalist myth. You have just accepted the way the system wants you to think. The system wants you work your ass off, it doesn't care what you gain from it only what it gains from you.

Work hard and become successful, sounds logical, until you really look at how it works. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme, you will always have a majority on the bottom level and a few at the top.

What do you think would happen to capitalism and the economy if everyone was wealthy at todays level? Could we all be equally wealthy? You'd better think about that one.

It's this thinking that keep people perpetuating the other myth of the poor being lazy. The hardest jobs are usually the least paid.

The system supplies the tools for one group to exploit another group.
For example...
Redlining

Redlining in America insured that wealth created from property remained in the hands whites and not minorities. It started with the national housing act 1934.

Your thinking divides our society into haves and have nots. You create divisions by perpetuating myths and stereotyping people as 'lazy' or 'successful', 'winners or losers' etc.

Don't you think it would be better if everyone was responsible for their actions, not because it makes them more wealthy, but makes a better society? We all have to live in it, not just the me me's.

While you're all out their increasing your bank accounts people are starving and being killed in the name of what you support, the beast, capitalism. Your society is falling apart around you. You might be wealthy, but you live in a cesspool an it's gonna get worse.

Hard work alone is not that impressive if all you care about is yourself and pretend you're not part of a societal whole.

Empires fail because people forget that to be strong a society has to be united, not divided by contracts and myths perpetuated to preserve the wealth of a few old families. America's only been around for 200 odd years and it's already showing signs of a society falling apart. It's at these times in past history that revolutions start, but the people now have lost their way and have no sense of their history and place in the scheme of things.

When you think of people who shaped your history you probably think of people like Washington etc...But the reality is you should be looking at the working classes, who without their standing up to governments you would not be able to enjoy what wealth you do have. Which to me is not much if it's just financial. But now the working class is called the middle class and any autonomy and power the working class once had is gone.

reply to post by ANOK

'Hard work makes you wealthy' is a capitalist myth.

You forgot Luck

What was "Lucky" about my life??? ...

Man that is RICH!!!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Capitalist myth? Nope... Real Life...

Your entire post is a pessimistic chapter out of the Liberal Handbook titled...

"How to get someone to support me"

being killed in the name of what you support, the beast, capitalism.

Really?

WOW, having served in the Marines in Lebanon and Panama, I missed that part.... I must have been too busy fighting for the liberals right to live off the government...

Face it.. Nothing you say can change the FACT that we are responsible for our own destiny. That the Liberal philosophy of wanting to FORCE altruism and let BIG BROTHER care for us is simply the lazy way of shirking responsibility and looking for someone to coddle you through life...

It is our very own self reliance that shaped this country and no manner of Revisionist History is going to change that as long as good solid Americans are around to pass the truth on by word of mouth as the Liberals change the history books.

Semper

reply to post by ANOK

Empires fail because people forget that to be strong a society has to be united

Completely wrong again.

Alexander Fraser Tytler’s maxim that all democracies are doomed to be short-lived because, once the populace realizes they can vote themselves monetary handouts from the public coffers, a democracy will fail economical.

End of Freedom

What that means is that eventually the Liberal Lazy Philosophy will prevail. Eventually the Liberals will sit on their duffs and expect a failing government to support them, and eventually it will not be able to because the Liberals will have driven off all the hard workers.

Hopefully I will be dead before that happens.

Semper

Originally posted by ANOK
Lot's of people work hard, or even HARD, but they're still poor as dirt.

Our system is not set up for us all to be successful no matter how hard you work.

Maybe we can't all have new cars or fancy homes, but a lot of the poverty you see is due to the choices people make in their lives.

Poor people tend to look at things from a different perspective than their wealthier counterparts. They're more about immediate gratfication than setting long term goals.

It's an attitude of, I might as well buy that big screen tv now on credit rather than save up for one. As a result, they then have yet another financial liability and are that much farther in debt.

People who have money know how to keep it. They scrimp and save where they can, and do without a lot of luxury items until they have the funds to pay cash for their purchases.

I'm not wealthy, and it's mostly due to the fact I'm a poor manager of money, and I buy things for my family that we really don't need. That's how I was raised, and I apply the same faulty logic to my own life. I want my gratification now, not later!

Ocassionally I feel bitter when I see a neighbor who's better of than me, but then I realize they probably have worked a lot longer and harder, and saved their money to get where they are. My Father-in-law is such a person. He's in his 80's and has more than enough money to last out his life and probably mine as well.

How he got to that point though, was by overriding his need for immediate gratification, and working long, hard hours in his fields while others relaxed and watched TV, or went to the Saturday night wrestling match and spent what little money they had. Haven't you ever noticed how the people with the least money to spare are the one's buying $20-$30 of lottery tickets at a time? Rather than saving that money or buying the necessities they need, they waste their money on a long shot. It's all about perspective.