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Originally posted by Hal9000
Originally posted by semperfortis
Keep this in mind people...
It is NOT MANDATORY for each individual state to conform to Federal Mandates on Speed restrictions, Exit Sign Design and Road Construction; BUT ; If they do not, they lose millions in Federal Tax Dollars.
I think you're intentionally misconstruing Semper's point Hal. How many states do you know of that don't comply to the Federal mandates? Do you honestly think they're going to pass up all those millions of dollars by not falling into lockstep with the Feds?
See. I've been telling you all along and obviously Semper agrees with me that it is not mandatory. Thanks for clearing that up.
Obama can CALL a thing voluntary and it makes it all better huh?
Welcome to the upcoming...
United Soviet States of America
Semper
Don't worry, he'll increase your taxes as well. There's no possible way he can implement all the handout programs he wants without doing so. As for gaining experience.. I think most people would rather decide for themselves when and what type of experience they obtain.
I could see complaining about it if they raised taxes to pay for it, which in that case you would only be getting your own money back, or if it causes tuition to go up which would in effect cost more for education. Some of you I'm sure would rather not pay taxes to begin with and not have any program, but I think you have to get beyond that and see that this may be an opportunity for some to gain experience that they otherwise would not get.
Forcing someone to work for the state isn't going to benefit their family. It will simply take what little free time they have away, and further erode the nuclear family. There's nothing beneficial about forced servitude.
The same people that don't want to pay for taxes are the same ones that say everyone is responsible for themselves and their families. How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?
Rugged Individualism is about as American as it gets grover. These were the type of people that founded our country.
Originally posted by grover
Its not ALL about the individual Johnmike thats a very egotistic and self centered approach... the individual as part of a society needs to contribute or he is little more than a parasite.
[edit on 14-7-2008 by grover]
The belief that all individuals, or nearly all individuals, can succeed on their own and that government help for people should be minimal. The phrase is often associated with policies of the Republican party and was widely used by the Republican president Herbert Hoover. The phrase was later used in scorn by the Democratic presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman to refer to the disasters of Hoover’s administration, during which the stock market Crash of 1929 occurred and the Great Depression began.
Originally posted by Hal9000
How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?
Originally posted by LLoyd45
I think you're intentionally misconstruing Semper's point Hal. How many states do you know of that don't comply to the Federal mandates? Do you honestly think they're going to pass up all those millions of dollars by not falling into lockstep with the Feds?
Don't worry, he'll increase your taxes as well. There's no possible way he can implement all the handout programs he wants without doing so. As for gaining experience.. I think most people would rather decide for themselves when and what type of experience they obtain.
I could see complaining about it if they raised taxes to pay for it, which in that case you would only be getting your own money back, or if it causes tuition to go up which would in effect cost more for education. Some of you I'm sure would rather not pay taxes to begin with and not have any program, but I think you have to get beyond that and see that this may be an opportunity for some to gain experience that they otherwise would not get.
The same people that don't want to pay for taxes are the same ones that say everyone is responsible for themselves and their families. How is someone supposed to better themselves and take care of their families if they are poor and we don't give them tools like this to do it?
Forcing someone to work for the state isn't going to benefit their family. It will simply take what little free time they have away, and further erode the nuclear family. There's nothing beneficial about forced servitude.
Originally posted by LLoyd45
Rugged Individualism is about as American as it gets grover. These were the type of people that founded our country.
$4,000 dollars is a drop in the bucket nowadays with tuitions fees increasing right along with inflation. This is also a useless incentive since most students will never even come close to earning enough to take advantage of it.
Originally posted by Hal9000
Your analogy isn't quite the same issue, because this program only involves $4,000 for college students that might otherwise not be able to afford it, and the Federal money for States is more like billions for road construction. The reason for requiring some standards for highways is so one could travel between states without getting confused as well having safety regulations. Each State agrees to standards like these when becoming part of the Union.
They're being forced to participate, so offering a pre-selected set of choices is not voluntary either.
As I have pointed out many times, an applicant can choose among a whole variety of service that would give them a choice of what experience they can gain.
They could also be using that 100 hours to study, relax, or have a life. Nobody want's to be mandated into service. You can't force people to be compassionate or caring, it has to come from within.
If they receive tax credits that pay for education, that would free up other money to pay for the other things they might need. As far the time they would spend on this, I would hardly call 100 hours over a year taking "what little free time they have away".
You are really exaggerating, but that is what you folks do isn't it? You have to, because it's not true.
You know, if more people practiced this behavior there wouldn't be a need for free healthcare, welfare, or foodstamp programs. Nowadays though people want to sit on their butts, and get a handout from the government in lieu of actually earning their keep. It's no wonder our society is as screwed up as it is. Nobody, and that includes the government, owes me, you, or anyone else a living.
Originally posted by Hal9000
[Well Loyd you can dream about the past all you want with all that free time you have, but this country is not the open plains it was back then. You cannot go around just anywhere cutting down trees to heat your house or build your home. You can't hunt anywhere you would like for food. We have a few more hundred million people here now that weren't around back then.
Not too long ago, my grandfather moved to the area I live now because that was where the work was. He was an unskilled laborer and could make a decent wage to support a family. This country is not like that anymore. Every job that pays enough to support a family requires either a trade skill or college degree to qualify for it. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn one of these skills and we all have to pitch in to make that happen. If we don't there will be a whole segment of underclass people that will never get ahead because we don't create opportunities that our forefathers had. Is that so hard to figure out?
Originally posted by LLoyd45
$4,000 dollars is a drop in the bucket nowadays with tuitions fees increasing right along with inflation. This is also a useless incentive since most students will never even come close to earning enough to take advantage of it.
Will the choice of saying "No" going to be an option as well? And If you do say "No" to the so-called voluntary community service, will you still get your Federal assistance? I doubt it..
They could also be using that 100 hours to study, relax, or have a life. Nobody want's to be mandated into service. You can't force people to be compassionate or caring, it has to come from within.
What type of folks might that be Hal? People who can see through all the BS, and don't like to be told what to do by the government? Yeah, that's the kind of person I am. If I want to volunteer, I'll do it on my terms, or not at all. Nobody forces me to do anything.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
that neocons suffer from selective reading.
Newsflash .. those of us voting for Ron Paul are not neocons.
Originally posted by semperfortis
I worked.. HARD.. from the age of 7 when she took me from the Orphanage and to the farm.
Our system is not set up for us all to be successful no matter how hard you work.
Originally posted by LLoyd45
What it's saying is: If they wish to receive federal funding, they'll will provide and implement these programs. The "No Child Left behind" program was the same kind of deal. They either provided access to the student to recruiters along with contact information, or they would not receive federal funding. Every school does so now.
Originally posted by semperfortis
I don't believe that. And it is not only hard work, but perseverance as well.
'Hard work makes you wealthy' is a capitalist myth.
You forgot Luck
being killed in the name of what you support, the beast, capitalism.
Empires fail because people forget that to be strong a society has to be united
Alexander Fraser Tytler’s maxim that all democracies are doomed to be short-lived because, once the populace realizes they can vote themselves monetary handouts from the public coffers, a democracy will fail economical.
Originally posted by ANOK
Lot's of people work hard, or even HARD, but they're still poor as dirt.
Our system is not set up for us all to be successful no matter how hard you work.