Is talking about "getting into Area51" illegal on this forum? The Final Verdict:

Ahem....

We all know that we can't get into Area51. The reason I am starting this thread is to address for everyone the adjacent legalities of talking about "getting into Area 51" on this forum. As you may know, lately there has been a swell of threads regarding this topic, quickly followed along by a swell of posters posing as Mods and quasi-authoritarians claiming it is illegal to even talk about it on this forum, and then threatening OP's with the law. Enough is enough.

If I am not mistaken, it is legal to discuss the topic of different hypothesis of how would one could get into Area51. However, coordinating, planning, or simply saying.."I'm going to do it!" would be illegal, no? Mods, feel free so step in here and clear the air, so that the next "How to inflitrate Area 51" thread doesn't get hi-jacked.







[edit on 11-7-2008 by NightVision]

[edit on 11-7-2008 by NightVision]

2e.) Illegal Activity: Discussion of illegal activities; ... are strictly forbidden.

The last time I checked trespassing is an illegal activity. Using ATS to discuss trespassing (whether hypothetical or not) on a highly restricted government installation is therefore forbidden.

I would hope that if people come across posters discussing such topics they would use the alert button at the bottom of each post to alert the staff to the offending post.

With an average approaching 6000 posts a day we can't be everywhere.
.

Illegal, or not, it seems our fellow SuperMods are joining in on the fun. There seems to be a contraction of opinions here.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by ktprktpr
How can you guys talk about breaking into Area 51 when you don't even have a map?

You can get the USGS topo maps for the area from your handy USGS map office. There are 9 Quadrangles that cover the entire area. The Quad with the base on it is the Groom Mine Quadrangle.

Based on the map analysis I just did for the ATS Research group on Area 51, it seems that the BEST way to me, is to approach the base from the north end through the groom range.

Why? Nellis security may not be as bad as Area 51's. It requires a long approch that is already through resticted area.
The mountain range may give you some cover

No to the point, could it be done? Doubtful, you would have to spend alot of time in the desert, be visiable to FLIR systems, very little to no chance of finding water.

Originally posted by sanctum

And when the cammo dudes finally crack the $hit's
and 'escort' u 2 the reception area, tell 'em the whole
thing started as a 'dare' at a bucks party

Even if it really is illegal by US Law to talk about Area 51, i am not form the USA, so they can never ever tell me to stop talking about it. Im not falling under American Laws and ive seen nothing in the board rules about not being granted to talk about Area 51.

What i want to say is, there are lots of people on ATS that are not american. So they can never forbid us to talk about it. And like i said, the board rules dont say that we cannot talk about it too..

When i am on ATS i have to respect the Dutch laws and the ATS forum rules. Not some silly american law



Now, if it is planning to tresspass, then okay, i could understand. But only talking about Area 51 can never be illegal.

[edit on 11/7/08 by TheNetherlands]

reply to post by TheNetherlands



Who said you can't talk about the base itself? There are dozens and dozens of threads about the base that work just great WITHOUT discussing ways to illegally break into the base.

What we are talking about here is whether or not we should allow people to discuss openly what is in no doubt a very very illegal activity, an activity that the government openly admits could easily get you killed.

It is a felony to try to break into the base. It is a felony to try to spy on the base with robots, birds, cameras on cats,etc,etc. If the site suddenly decides that discussion of one illegal activity is ok just because it's "hypothetical", whats next?

Should I be allowed to start a thread on "Hypothetical ways to kill the President and get away with it" or "How to hypothetically kidnap a child from Wal-Mart"? Imagine how evil the site would look if I made these threads about kidnapping and murder a collaborative event on the board with many members telling me their ideas to make my plans better.

Where is the line drawn? The line is already drawn in the T&C's that we all agreed to when we signed up that said we will not discuss illegal activity.

Who is "playing mod" here? Is it the person who wants everyone to follow the rules that they already AGREED to follow, or is it the person who says,"screw the rules I already agreed to, I can post whatever I want with no repercussions"?


[edit on 11-7-2008 by Tiloke]

reply to post by Tiloke


Uhm, just look at the bottom of my post please. Thank you!

Trespass(Wikipedia) - The criminal act of entering another person's land or property without permission of the owner or lessee

Trespass to Land(Wikipedia) - committed when an individual intentionally (or in Australia negligently) enters the land of another without lawful excuse.

For those of us living in the United States, we are guaranteed our right to freedom of speech and thinking. No matter which way you cut it, it IS NOT illegal to talk about how to get into Area 51, people have been doing it for years, and you don't see the Government running out and arresting everyone (because they would have a huge lawsuit on their hands).

Now, actually carrying out plans that you have made, that IS illegal. Then they can say that you pre-meditated what you were going to do. I for one believe that it is fine for anyone here at ATS to talk about how they would do it all day long, but I do not by any means condone illegal activity, especially on Government installations. There's my 2 cents worth.

Originally posted by Tiloke

Should I be allowed to start a thread on "Hypothetical ways to kill the President and get away with it" or "How to hypothetically kidnap a child from Wal-Mart"? Imagine how evil the site would look if I made these threads about kidnapping and murder a collaborative event on the board with many members telling me their ideas to make my plans better.
[edit on 11-7-2008 by Tiloke]

How can you compare the discussion of Area51 with assassination of a President, kidnapping, and murder? This is entertainment. The Mods have even joined in on the discussion at times. Are you going to tell them what they can and can't say now?

When I dressed up as a blood-thirsty axe-murdering zombie in 4th grade for Halloween, I didn't plan to eat my neighbors flesh, nor anyone else's for that matter. Everybody 'got it'. Think about it. I hope your childhood was as fun as mine, but I get the feeling it....oh i'll stop now.

Originally posted by NightVision


How can you compare the discussion of Area51 with assassination of a President, kidnapping, and murder?

I like how this is the second post accusing people of trying to hush ALL talk about Area 51. Get this straight, people, THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO STOP IS PEOPLE DISCUSSING WAYS TO BREAK INTO THE BASE, NOT DISCUSSION ON THE BASE ITSELF.

Crimes are separated into 2 categories, felonies and misdemeanors. I don't make the comparison, the law does.

Killing the President = felony

Kidnapping = felony

Murder = felony

Breaking into Area 51 = felony

Originally posted by Tiloke

Originally posted by NightVision


How can you compare the discussion of Area51 with assassination of a President, kidnapping, and murder?

I like how this is the second post accusing people of trying to hush ALL talk about Area 51. Get this straight, people, THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO STOP IS PEOPLE DISCUSSING WAYS TO BREAK INTO THE BASE, NOT DISCUSSION ON THE BASE ITSELF.

Impossible. Thats like saying, "You can talk about this piece of chocolate cake, but you can't talk about how good it tastes or have bite of it." As long as people are discussing Area51, they are going to be talking about how to get in. You can scream felony all you want. Its human nature to think about it.

What you're missing here is that excessive secrecy breeds this kind of discussion. If the Air Force had simply admitted the base's existence from the get go, the lore wouldnt have grown into these proportions.

Just because something is a law, doesn't make it morally right. The USA learned this from the Brits long ago.

P.S. please spare us the ALL CAPS next time. We can hear you screaming quite good.

[edit on 11-7-2008 by NightVision]

Originally posted by Tiloke


Breaking into Area 51 = felony

Area 51, according to official accounts, does not exist. Why would it be "illegal" to discuss something that is ficticious in the first place? Better yet, show me the law that says that discussing this topic is illegal. That is how this country got into the mess we are in, second-hand information..."well, I heard it was illegal, so...."

edited

[edit on 7/11/08 by emsed1]

I had to edit my post because I didn't express myself correctly.

1 - We all agree breaking into Area 51 is illegal.

2 - We all agree that discussing illegal activity violates the Terms and Conditions.

Freedom of Speech doesn't apply here. We are on a privately-owned message board and we agree to obey the owner's rules or we get booted.

Breaking into Area 51 is stupid.

Talking about breaking into Area 51 is incredibly stupid and boring.

There is so much COOL stuff to discuss about Area 51 that wasting time with these stupid ideas about homing pigeons with cameras, hot air balloons and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads is just a waste of time.

[edit on 7/11/08 by emsed1]

Originally posted by pluckynoonez

Originally posted by Tiloke


Breaking into Area 51 = felony

Area 51, according to official accounts, does not exist. Why would it be "illegal" to discuss something that is ficticious in the first place? Better yet, show me the law that says that discussing this topic is illegal. That is how this country got into the mess we are in, second-hand information..."well, I heard it was illegal, so...."

I simply like to read about some of the hair brained schemes to get into Area 51, I agree that there is no law prohibiting the discussion of the subject. As far as this board goes, suits me fine if we never see another "how will we get in" post, although i do believe that there are more people out there that belong to ATS that enjoy reading them as well.

[edit on 11-7-2008 by desertdreamer]

reply to post by desertdreamer



There is no law unless your words incite others to try it.

What was explained very well by Emsed before he had to "dumb it down" for the forum is that this (ATS) is not a "free speech" zone and it is not governed by the constitution or the bill of rights. ATS is a privately owned entity and as such , it can impose whatever restrictions it wants to on what can and can not be discussed here.

The site has decided, and you agreed, that discussion of illegal activities is forbidden. Breaking into Area 51 is illegal, thus discussion of breaking into Area 51 should be forbidden.


[edit on 11-7-2008 by Tiloke]

Talking about breaking into Groom Lake is a total waste of bandwidth. It ranks up their with the stupid Groom Lake alien posts, stupid star gate posts, and the stupid ex-employee posts.

Originally posted by Tiloke
There is no law unless your words incite others to try it.

What was explained very well by Emsed before he had to "dumb it down" for the forum is that this (ATS) is not a "free speech" zone and it is not governed by the constitution or the bill of rights. ATS is a privately owned entity and as such , it can impose whatever restrictions it wants to on what can and can not be discussed here.

The site has decided, and you agreed, that discussion of illegal activities is forbidden. Breaking into Area 51 is illegal, thus discussion of breaking into Area 51 should be forbidden.


[edit on 11-7-2008 by Tiloke]

I agree with you on the T&C's, however, its not up to you to police this board. Its up to the Mods. Some Mods have freely engaged in these discussions. By those criteria, they would be violating the sites own T&C's.

Somehow you failed to observe this critical element. In your future posts regarding this topic, I would recommend you let the Mods sort all this out. Until then, you have a choice: You can either call the feds (which will do nothing) and report us all, or you can allow people to post as they will without your badgering, and let them be responsible for their own actions. I hope I have explained myself clearly to you.








[edit on 11-7-2008 by NightVision]

so talking about a51 is illegal ok then why is it that when someone on the media asks the USAF about a51 the official answer is that they have NO KNOWLEDGE
that such a base exists even to the point of that it isn't even on the maps!
then when people push the issue they deny that it exists
so why is it illegal to talk about a place that according to official sources doesn't exist?????????

reply to post by ST SIR 86


There is no denial about the existence of the base.

Monday, September 22, 2003 Volume 39--Number 38 Pages 1211-1251 Week Ending Friday, September 19, 2003 Memorandum on Classified Information Concerning the Air Force's Operating Location Near Groom Lake, Nevada September 16, 2003 Presidential Determination No. 2003-39 Memorandum for the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, the Secretary of the Air Force Subject: Memorandum on Classified Information Concerning the Air Force's Operating Location Near Groom Lake, Nevada I find that it is in the paramount interest of the United States to exempt the United States Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada, the subject of litigation in Kasza v. Browner (D. Nev. CV-S-94- 795-PMP) and Frost v. Perry (D. Nev. CV-S-94-714-PMP), from any applicable requirement for the disclosure to unauthorized persons of classified information concerning that operating location. Therefore, pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 6961(a), I hereby exempt the Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada, from any Federal, State, interstate or local provision respecting control and abatement of solid waste or hazardous waste disposal that would require the disclosure of classified information concerning the operating location to any unauthorized person. This exemption shall be effective for the full one-year statutory period. Nothing herein is intended to: (a) imply that in the absence of such a Presidential exemption, the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) or any other provision of law permits or requires disclosure of classified information to unauthorized persons; or (b) limit the applicability or enforcement of any requirement of law applicable to the Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada, except those provisions, if any, that would require the disclosure of classified information. The Secretary of the Air Force is authorized and directed to publish this determination in the Federal Register. George W. Bush

ok so where did you get this info from? did it come from a news media or did the USAF provide us with this info in other words who's the source of the info you provided!

i was trying to show you all to get yourselfs out of crap with your airforce but it seems to me that you dont get the real message: if you find yourself before a judge its well documented that the usaf always denies the existance of a51
or used to
anyway if you admit to knowing where it is you'll be hammered! now do you get the picture

edit : if its so illegal to know where it is why is it in google earth????


[edit on 11-7-2008 by ST SIR 86]

reply to post by ST SIR 86


Google is your friend. Click on the link, the go to "Classified Information Concerning the Air Force's Operating Location Near Groom Lake, Nevada, memorandum"
GPO

And see if you can get that shift key fixed.