Illegal Immigration and the Threat to US Security.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Has anyone watched Traffic, the Mini Series? Then you know what Im talking about.

But for those who havent, part of the story, is that terrorists, stole bio weapons, small pox, from the Russians. They took the smallpox, infected a boatload of illegals who were trying to sneak into the US.

A Very realistic scenario. Terrorists wouldnt have to worry about smuggling a barrel of Anthrax across the borders: simply go to Hong Kong, Mexico, wherever, find a gaggle of illegals who are paying to sneak itno the US, Infect them with a contagion via food or water, and viola: your terror weapon has been delivered with cutoms and security none the wiser, and it can easily spread that way too.

Human distribution devices. So, I ask, if a damn Tv show can show the obvious, why the hell have our security guys not taken it into consideration and listed illegal sneak immigration as security threat number one?

Perhaps they already know, and are planning to look the other way like they did 9/11?

you obviously dont live in texas. leeme give you the run down of how life on the border is.

illegal immigrants are probably half of my school. the entire police force. every single handyman job around. any kid im friends with is, is friends with, or is realted to illegal immigrants.

not just from mexico either, from all over. especially the middle east. we've got boat loads (no pun intended) of em!

illegal immigration is essencial to our way of life.

so i guess all i c an say is.....

welcome to texas

Wow, people who think it is wrong for people from a seperate country to come and steal jobs from Americans, not pay taxes, vote for republicans. Welcome home people.

Anyways, I read a book, fiction, that Mexico decided it would invade America. How? Not by sending in the troops, but by using civillians. They told all the citizens in America to come to the border and wait for their families and freinds to come and march forth to take back the land the anglos stole during the mexican american war. Mexico knew we wouldn't use our troops to shoot masses of women and children, and it went off without a hitch, till the hero, Dirk Pitt comes and saves the day.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
vote for republicans.

You moron you have to be a legal citizen to vote, and if illegals could vote they certainly wouldnt vote for a bunch of old white guys who would aim to boot them out of our country.

people who say that immigrants are stealing your jobs from you....are obviously stupid.

"saying that an illegal immigrant doesn't deserve to be paid the same wages as an American because he doesn't belong here in the first place is like saying that a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place."

see the rest here:
maddox says: Oops! You're Racist!

I thought people would have learned from the lessons of ww2 and turned away from the idea of isolationism. Who cares if the whole world falls into darkness and evil, who gives a # if everything you claim to stand for is being threatend, to hell with everyone right? we got our own problems right?

No not right, we are the most powerful country on this planet, and we won't stay that way by turning our backs on our responsibilities. How do you plan on defending this country, when the quasi-facist regime in China comes to full strength, when it decides to start expanding in all directions, or how about when North Korea starts using nukes to blackmail its neighbors. How about when Putin finishes consolidating his power, and seeks to revive the "Great Russian Empire"?

Are those senarios going to happen? maybe, maybe not. But I guarantee you guys that if we withdraw from the world, someone will take our place. Europe won't because its still traumatized by its colonial past, most of the other free and democratic societies are either too small, too far apart, or too weak to take up the mantle of world leadership. That leaves only emerging powers like China in a position to affect world politics, and in what direction to you think they will send it?

I guess though that we can remain strong by sealing our borders and tightening trade and commerce to the outside world, hey but what happens when we run out of oil, or steel? who's going to buy our products when we won't deal with the global economy? what kind of jobs will we have with no international financial links?

Maybe since we won't have any more foreign workers anymore we can all go back to being farmers and factory workers. Yeah! thats it we will go back to living in the 1930's where America had its strongest economy, and the world just left us alone while it burned in flames. Of course those flames would never reach us, we are too far away, too strong, too proud. Tell that to the 2,000 who died at Pearl Harbor, and the 3,000 on 9-11.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, and seek trade reforms fine, but preaching isolationism will niether keep our economy growing, nor keep us safe. You can ignore the fact that we are all in this together, ignore that the future of all people in all countries is at stake, but at least remember that in all or history no wall could ever keep out the invaders forever.

I grew up in Cali, Scat, so yeah, I do know. Go down to san Ysidro, and you end up almost running over entire families running across the freeways with all thier baggage. They run right out in traffic, its a real hazard.

Now that we live in the brave new world Bush has helped create, just think: anyone can be disguised and hidden amongst those masses of undocumented persons. Hell, Bin Laden could cross the border himself and no one would be the wiser.

And all this BS about illegals taking jobs Americans dont want? BULL#! They aint stuck picking lettuce anymore: Now, they are being hired as truck drivers, construction workers, ect, jobs that once were well paying. Go down to the Port of Seattle any given day, good luck finding a truck driver unloading his truck at the docks that speaks English. When you consider how many unemployed Americans who would love to have a decent construction job, or a delivery job, ect. No, thier unemploymnent benefits have run out, and even the # jobs have been taken. Hell, even kids cant earn summer money anymore going around the neighborhood mowing lawns. No, now they can pay illegals to do it.

But the issue here isnt job security, its the possibilities undocumented unaccounted for workers have for being carriers or cloaks for the myriad of enemies we have suddenly discovered we had.The open borders both up north and down south, are a hazard, a threat, a real danger, for many ways, from the possibility of biological attacks, to smuggling in other stuff.

Coolhand, yes, I DO know what a Hawk Missile is used for, most old timers in the patriot unit. The point being, that Hawks are used to take out planes. Well, guess what we were doing there? We were all stationed on an airforce base, normal for pat units. So we didnt get bad info. The reason they werer so concerned is because guess what we were doing? Flying bombing raids into Iraq. The sudden appearance of those hawk missiles so close to our patrol area with all those planes we had up there was a MAJOR concern for the pilots, thus, the alert, and possible interception of any fired missiles, or at least tracking them. Do you understand now?

Isolationism was our best policy, it kept us from suffering the henious wars that devstated other countires. Our isolationism made us strong. Our isolationism can save us again. And, EX...........our ideals are fine for us, but have you ever considered the rest of the world does not believe or want it? So we dont push it on them, or "defend" them.

The fate of the rest of the world concerns me little. They will either fight each other, or they will figure it out on thier own. Our job is only to secure our existance and keep a wary eye on the world, observing, but not interfering. They have been doing whatever it is they do long before we came along, i see no reason or benefit in getting involved in centuries old intrigues and ethnic rivalries.

Our isolationism will require us to get involved in other renewable ebergy sources and conserve more, instead of throwing everything away like kids and using it up. Our whole system needs a total rebuild.

I guess I am a little confused with all this bickering going on here. Wasn't our country founded with the premise that anyone can come here in order to inprove their lot in life? Seems to me that the vast majority of people who come here do so for that reason.

Now you want to prevent that? You guys want to change one of the things that this country was founded on?

Skadi, if you do know what they are used for then why did you say: "The Iranians, while I was there, for no apparant reason, were observed moving a couple battalions of nuke capable Hawk Missiles near thier Kuwaiti border?"

[Edited on 10/3/04 by COOL HAND]

I think my answer was pretty self evident, Coolhand. What exactly are you asking?

iranians moved thier Hawk Missiles right near the kuwaiti border. Right near our airspace, where we were flying. Since there was no apparant reason for it, and it was done suddenly, there was concern.

Why? Is that where youre going? A bunch of surface to air plane killers, capable of carrying nuke war heads if fitted with them, for no reason suddenly moves right to the edge of our airspace, close enough to become a threat to all those tones of planes, fighters and bombers, flying around, right within range and sight of these missile units that just for no apparant reason, have decided to relocate right within easy shooting distance of our flight paths. Have I spelled it out clearly enough?

What does this have to do with out battalion of patriot missiles? Our mission. To provide aircover, taking out planes, but also, taking our missiles, with the new retrofits done after the gulf war. Our concern: would patriot be able to take out any possible hawk missiles fired? Would it be effective? Could we track them?

The US airforce sure as hell thought it thier major concern, and thier concerns were our concerns.

And as for your other comment? No one is saying people cant come here. We are saying they cant come here unless they go through the system, legally, instead of sneaking past scrutiny and checks, both health and criminal checks. If they can get here LEGAL:LY, more power to them, but if they cant come through liek normal law abiding people, why should we want them here? they become an invisible threat we cannot track, and THAT is a real danger.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf is absolutely right. Without proper screening and identity verification processes, there would be a hell of a lot of "unknowns" running around with the capability to wreak havoc, and never have to worry about being tracked down. Good point Skadi_the_Evil_Elf.

Mr. M

Thank you Star Child. The issue here is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration that threatens us. Legal immigrants are more than welcome to come. They have been cleared, been checked for contagious diseases, criminal backgrounds, ect. It is the illegals, the invisible ones, that bother me. Its like, if you hear a knock on your door. It is a police officer. he wants to come in and ask questions about a recent incident. He shows you his credentials, even lets you call the precint to verify his idenity. You know hes legit, thus, you let him come in. But what do you do when you come home, find some stranger who tells you hes a cop, but dpesnt have the stuff to back it up.....wouldnt you be a little concerned? He just entered your house, without your permission, and you have no idea what the hell hes doing there.

We should not be rewarding people who break our laws and come here illegally. We should be very concerned.

That's exactly right. I don't feel comfortable "now" knowing that a large percentage of the American population are "unknowns". It creeps me out, man. The thing about it too, is that over time there has been so many people entering and exiting the U.S. unknown. It has just escalated from then until now. They have been enforcing the law in the past but nowhere near as hard-core as they are "claiming" to do now.

It's like a virus. Once you catch it, it doesn't just go away over night. It will be a long time before we successfully weed out all of these illegals.

Mr. M

Why is it that if you are against "illegal" immigration you are attacked for being anti-Immigrant?

If you are here legally, welcome! If you are here illegally, get out, get out now!

Isn't that simple? How can you be for illegal immigration? That is the most irresponsible thing I have ever heard in my life. We have an obligation to our security to round them up and ship them out. If they don't like it let them take a slow boat north to Canada.

Sorry I just hate that we are trying to reward law breakers. Yes every single illegal in this country is a criminal, they have broken the law by entering this country in violation of our long standing immigration policies. All criminals regardless of what job they do, we need to step up and fix this problem for the sake of our security and to show the world we practice what we preach, the law is the law. If you don't like it work through the government and get the law changed.

[Edited on 3/10/2004 by nativeokie]

Originally posted by nativeokie
Why is it that if you are against "illegal" immigration you are attacked for being anti-Immigrant?

Nativeokie, that's like someone who voices dissatisfaction with Israel's policies towards Arabs being labeled an anti-semite.

Sure Illegal Immigrants could be unwitting carriers of diseases

but being an illeagle border crosser is not a threat to US
security.
1st, the immigrants are not to be confused with those
that sneak into society for a purpose of sabotage or to
create terror acts. the illegal immigrants are doing
what a higher law commands, to seek to survive and thrive.


Common knowledge to these people is that the path of
Legal Immigration is a mess...the rich & connected get
no resistances, the bureaucractic channels are long,
costly, and won't guarantee acceptance at the end of
the ordeal...for the average immigrant applicant--
especially those with a whole family wishing to relocate!

greed, usury, and a whole lotta self serving agendas,
has kept illegal immigration a thriving subculture...

for those people that want to create a protective
'bubble'...why not start in you own neighborhoods
city, county, state...get a Orwellian Police State Dystopia
created...where illeagles are sought out and exiled...
where the internal security forces (ala SS & Gestapo)
stop you and demand your Papers....on the street,
even in your house, at night etc

TRY that out for awhile...
then bring it back to the national forum, for approval

In the larger arena...the illeagles are a force in the
capitalism dynamic,
without the necessary changes the demographic of today would become stagnant, the american business
and economy models would not survive as innovators
or information/service providers....

sure the mexicans & latinos are flooding into USA and
cornering some aspects of labor & trades & tasks...
but the 'Indians" are also cornering aspects of tech
& info & white collar IT,program Engineering...

the deamon is not the foreigners, it's your CEOs & Boards of Directors, in the US co & corps.!!!
(they're laughing all the way to the bank...while you are
rioting with pitchforks & burning effigies of foreigners)

BTW...what was this topic......

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Isolationism was our best policy, it kept us from suffering the henious wars that devstated other countires. Our isolationism made us strong. Our isolationism can save us again. And, EX...........our ideals are fine for us, but have you ever considered the rest of the world does not believe or want it? So we dont push it on them, or "defend" them.

The fate of the rest of the world concerns me little. They will either fight each other, or they will figure it out on thier own. Our job is only to secure our existance and keep a wary eye on the world, observing, but not interfering. They have been doing whatever it is they do long before we came along, i see no reason or benefit in getting involved in centuries old intrigues and ethnic rivalries.

Our isolationism will require us to get involved in other renewable ebergy sources and conserve more, instead of throwing everything away like kids and using it up. Our whole system needs a total rebuild.

You did not repond to my comment about maintaining a strong economy without ties to the rest of the world. You did not respond to how we can defend the country if we someday find oursleves surrounded by enemies and hostile ideologies.

You confuse the idea of isoloationism with that of being neutral in international distputes. That concept was created because the founding fathers did not want us involved in the petty wars of Europe. This no longer occurs, and we are too connected to the world to remove ourslelves from it.

People may not want to be told how to live, but I guarantee you no one wants to be oppressed or starving, who are we to claim that only Americans deserve freedom. Liberty is the birthright of every human, not something granted by the good will of governments. Look at Taiwan, you think they want to be taken over by China and loose all their freedoms?, if they don't like our way of life then why not surrender now? why do they ask for our help?

What you propose is akin to locking yourself in your house while ignoring a person getting killed outside your door screaming for help, and then turing around and saying "too bad for that guy, good thing i didn't get involed or I might get hurt too". If you are a rational person thats maybe a good policy, except of course when the killer comes after you.

I can't stand that the U.S. is being forced to go bilingual. If you go to France, you speak French. If you go to Cuba, you speak Cuban. Why do we have to accomodate people who speak Spanish and will not learn the common language of OUR country? It's total appeasement and I detest that.

Personally, I think illegals should be deported the moment they are found. Our system is so lax and corrupt, tho, it's not happening. The people who run the INS should be held accountable with fines and jail time for not enforcing the laws we already have ruling illegal immigration. This is a major national security issue.

Yes, Eastcoastkid, I agree. I stated earlier on this thread, I married a German national. We went to the DMV to take her drivers test, and they had the test in Spanish,Polish, and Russian. That really ticked me off. It was bad enough it took a YEAR to get her and my children here. It was bad enough that my congressman didn't do squat to help when I asked him. What was worse was when I would call the American Consulate in Frankfurt to get updated status reports, and they were only open from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. And not one American answered the phones. It was German Nationals. The same people who told me NOT to contact my comgressman, because it will slow down the process!!!

This is what happens when you try to obey the immigration laws in this country, and do everything by the book. And that is why illegals have absolutely no business here.

My family came here from Croatia in 1908 . My great-grandfather had to wait 8 years for his family to get here. It was hard, but he made it, legally. No one was here to help them. There were no support groups, no signs being posted in Serbo/Croatian. School was taught in English. But somehow, they made it. As did the millions of legal immigrants from all corners of the globe.

Originally posted by nathraq
Yes, Eastcoastkid, I agree. I stated earlier on this thread, I married a German national. We went to the DMV to take her drivers test, and they had the test in Spanish,Polish, and Russian. That really ticked me off. It was bad enough it took a YEAR to get her and my children here. It was bad enough that my congressman didn't do squat to help when I asked him. What was worse was when I would call the American Consulate in Frankfurt to get updated status reports, and they were only open from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. And not one American answered the phones. It was German Nationals. The same people who told me NOT to contact my comgressman, because it will slow down the process!!!

I can only imagine your intense frustration! Who the hell is your congressman? He should be fired!

This is what happens when you try to obey the immigration laws in this country, and do everything by the book. And that is why illegals have absolutely no business here.

People who sneak over, jumping ahead of everybody are LAWBREAKERS, plain and simple. They should be treated as such. Never given amnesty or whatever!

My family came here from Croatia in 1908 . My great-grandfather had to wait 8 years for his family to get here. It was hard, but he made it, legally. No one was here to help them. There were no support groups, no signs being posted in Serbo/Croatian. School was taught in English. But somehow, they made it. As did the millions of legal immigrants from all corners of the globe.

You're right. That's how most of our families began here. The hard but legal way, with no special treatment.

small world nathraq

my in-law family immigrated in 1908 Also !!
but they were from Lithuania, it took years for
them all to get here, to become Coal Miners in W Va

I also went thru Ellis Island (when it was operational)
but i was a German refugee of Lithuanian heritage

there are still citizenship classes & tests before
Naturalization....all those illeagles miss out on the
pomp, ceremony, and pride you get when taking
the oath,Allegience & becoming a citizen...

Originally posted by riffraffalunas
small world nathraq

my in-law family immigrated in 1908 Also !!
but they were from Lithuania, it took years for
them all to get here, to become Coal Miners in W Va

I also went thru Ellis Island (when it was operational)
but i was a German refugee of Lithuanian heritage

there are still citizenship classes & tests before
Naturalization....all those illeagles miss out on the
pomp, ceremony, and pride you get when taking
the oath,Allegience & becoming a citizen...

Well, Welcome!

But naturalization is another subject. See, my wife does not want to become an American Citizen. She has permanent staus here, but if she would to become an American citizen, she would give up her German citizenship. She won't have the choice of dual citizenship, as our children have. I can't blame her, though.

She did not come here for economic gain, or political asylum. She came here because of me. The Germans have very good pension programs, and if she were to give up her rights to german citizenship, she would forfeit those programs.

When I was living in Germany, I also had permanent residency. But I would never give up my American citizenship.