CNN Show new Israeli spy plane

reply to post by Boone 870



Thanks for the vid boone that was sweet. Seems like the israelis have got it going on in their home defence markets.

It like a cutdown RC-135. Here is the issue. How soon is it before our "allies" sell this gear to the PLAAF?

Edit: Meant to say RC-135

[edit on 7/11/08 by FredT]

reply to post by FredT



That just wiped the smile right off my face.

I googled a bit, and thats one scary very relevant comment. Do you think they would though ? because if they would do that with such a war winning assest what would stop them passing on the F-35 secrets ?

reply to post by Dan Tanna


The USAF uses variants of the entire Gulfstream family, the 757, 737, the 707-320, and DC-10 for multiple missions. It's cheaper and easier to develop a ready made platform than to develop an entirely new version.

Originally posted by Dan Tanna
I googled a bit, and thats one scary very relevant comment. Do you think they would though ? because if they would do that with such a war winning assest what would stop them passing on the F-35 secrets ?

One only has to look at the LAVI and its relationship to a current PLAAF fighter. The attempted sale of the Phalcon radar system is yet another example. From my perspective I do not think that they can or should be trusted with stealthy aircraft at all based on past issues.

Hmm all good points relative to Israel and its Air Force and possible selling of tech. I guess my one word of caution would be to try and understand why they would have to think that way? What or how could they rationalize tech leaks etc.

If you look at how complex the political and daily lives are even in the middle east and the need to try and secure any leverage that you can people in that area of the world and security can have a much different view on what can and can't be done. I guess this is all in an attempt empathize with a position that another human finds him or her self in and the fact that we should always be prepared to step back and re-evaluate our reasoning.

Ideally yeah I agree that what seems to be case with Israel history is not strong in keeping this information and honoring allies but its hard to know ALL the facts since most of us don't have them.

reply to post by FredT

Israel soon discovered that it needed U.S. cooperation, however, and therein lay the cause of the Lavi’s (possibly temporary) demise. It was not feasible for Israel to develop one of the world’s most sophisticated aircraft on a self-sufficient basis, as originally hoped. The Lavi project consequently involved joint research, the use of some U.S. components (such as Pratt and Whitney engines) and U.S. taxpayers’ money.

Some $1.3 billion of U.S. aid went into the Lavi before alarm bells went off in Washington: why was the U.S. paying Israel to develop and produce an aircraft that would compete on the international arms market with planes produced by its own companies and put American workers out of their jobs? The Reagan administration, averse to putting pressure on Israel over issues such as stopping settlement construction in the West Bank, leaned on the Israeli government, which duly caved in: the Lavi project was cancelled in 1987.

There were reports soon after that both South Africa and China were interested in taking over the Lavi project, but those about China remained vague and unsubstantiated at the time...

and..

The Chinese J-10 has no U.S.-made parts: the engine is Russian-made, and nearly everything else is made in China. According to military affairs writer Tim Kennedy, however, “after Israel discontinued the largely U.S.-funded project, it sold China the plans for the Lavi and the associated secret U.S. technology.” (See “U.S. Military Technology Sold by Israel to China Upsets Asian Power Balance,” January 1996 Washington Report, p. 12.)

Washington post

So Israel sold off all of the secret technology that came from the USA and was in Lavi ? and the F-35 is going to israel ? Thats just absurd !

Thanks for the little bit about the Lavi, I never knew Israel was such a deliberate snake in the grass. Thats terrible.

I don't think the Lavi prototype going to China was as big of a deal as it is made out to be. Just my opinion. You're talking about a plane designed in the early 80's. The amount of US participation in the Lavi was a mistake, imo. But it's silly to think that the Lavi was a super-capable platform delivered to China. Ironically, I'm not sure the J-10 ended up as capable as the Lavi would have been anyway. I don't think Israel shared all the toys. I think they were offered a sweetheart deal on an outdated system collecting dust, and they took it. Will they sell up to date systems for the right money? Probably. It's not cheery to think about.

The US will (and should) be careful with the F-35. There are already thoughts circulating that Israel won't buy based on Lock-Marts edict that the avionics cannot be changed out by the customer. Though rumours are that as a full participant they will get this waived. I think they get it sooner or later anyway. It seems inevitable.


This G550 appears to be the mating of the Phalcon avionics with the Gulfstream airframe. It will replace or supplement the 707's currently in service. Apparently Singapore is on the short list to receive them too. India and Chile already received them.

reply to post by _Del_


I would agree with you on the point that the Lavi is not exactly like handing a 5th generation fighter into the hands of the Chicoms. Nor is Hugo Chavez's threats to sell some F-16A Block 10's to China or Iran either however........

It does speak to intent and willingness to do so. The Arrow is just another example of a high tech system basically funded by the US taxpayer that could easily be sold to the chicoms. Im not talking some drunk officer spilling AEGIS secrets and the like, im talking about state sanctioned technology transphers and the like.

reply to post by FredT


I tend to agree with you. I also tend to think Israel is slightly smart enough to think ahead of the game. They have to know that China will sell whatever they learn to the highest bidder as well. That means Syria, Iran, etc are going to have access to whatever Israel gives them either directly or slightly later by way of N.Korea.
It's also possible (but slightly less likely, imo) that they might trade technology for political markers. That would irritate the taxpayer in me. I'm also not naive enough to think there aren't very good reasons for them to do this vis a viz China's relationship to other countries in the region.
I tend to think we shoot ourselves in the foot alot with technology transfers. We veto the sale of the Phalcon system to China. Instead of negotiating the transfer of something slightly less capable, they kill the whole thing. So China agrees to co-develop a system with Russia and achieves roughly the same capability they would have with a modified system. Losers: Elta and the US sub-contractors.
Works the other way too. Israel lobby won't approve sale of the F-111 or more F-15's to Saudi Arabia so they buy Tornadoes. We denied several interested customers the F-16, so they bought Fulcrums. End result: the countries end up with roughly the same capabilities and the US companies lose the opportunity to sell their product (ironically this keeps unit costs higher for the US purchases as well). Losers: US companies and indirectly the USAF.
It's hard because we don't live in an ideal world. It's rather complicated; at the end of the day, I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make these decisions.