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Hard Disclosure Right Here

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posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by tiger_tts
Well written and interesting post. I appreciate the clean writing and well considered points that you bring up.

I can't help but worry about the lack of evidence on the Neanderthal Cro-magnon statements though. I have "Occam's razor" screaming out to me. This just sounds like theory based on hypothesis, based on "our" underlying belief system, based on conjecture, based on brain case size and shape, inferred from other animal brain size, shape and function. And is it even a necessary prerequisite to the "abduction" hypothesis?

What Neanderthal wrote the treatise on "self" in their culture? I'm joking, but it seems a stretch to make these statements based on conjecture from tools, burials, pictures on caves walls, etc. My observations lead me to believe that my dogs and cats have a keen sense of self and awareness that is beyond the "group self" you attribute to the Neanderthals. Just sounds like too much Clan of the Cave Bear fiction.

Obviously how we interpret and experience our universe is a function that occurs in the brain. But couldn't the self consciousness/higher consciousness (or oneness) conflict you discuss, be just as easily described as the conscious/unconscious mind conflict/unity, regardless of origin?

As applied to abductions, I've never been certain what "abductions" are or if they are really linked to UFOs or just something else (in our brain according to your hypothesis if I understand you). But couldn't the abductions just be abductions?

Thanks for the post.


Yeah, the claims are pretty bold. I'll try to address some of your points.

And is it even a necessary prerequisite to the "abduction" hypothesis?

I'm not absolutely that sure that the 30% of humans or less who do not have the d-allele would not experience the abduction scenario, but it's going to be hard to research it since most of them are sub-Saharan Africans. I would say that the capacity for the experience may exist, but would its manifestation seem so alien to them?

What Neanderthal wrote the treatise on "self" in their culture? I'm joking, but it seems a stretch to make these statements based on conjecture from tools, burials, pictures on caves walls, etc.

My research has another component that supports my claims, and I'll post it later. It's actually more controversial, but again it is not incompatible with existing knowledge. Yet.

Obviously how we interpret and experience our universe is a function that occurs in the brain. But couldn't the self consciousness/higher consciousness (or oneness) conflict you discuss, be just as easily described as the conscious/unconscious mind conflict/unity, regardless of origin?

Not sure what you're saying. If you are saying that an identity crisis in a bull is the same as an identity crisis in a scorpion, then I would suggest that both animals are in a similar fix, but they are still a bull and a scorpion respectively.

But couldn't the abductions just be abductions?

Yes, but abductions can be a lot of things. Ask Betty and Barney Hill.




posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by pieman
if the sense of unity you describe is inherited from neanderthal man, then surely these concepts of universality should be more prevalent in the areas that the other inherited traits from neandrthal man are prevalent. you describe these as

Red or fair hair. Green or blue eyes. White skin.


this should put us squarely in the realm of northern europe, however it doesn't bear out. in reality, there is a long standing tradition of ownership in northern europe, as far back as we can trace, where as, there are well established concepts of universality in populations with few/no inherited physical traits from neanderthal man.


Actually, a long time has passed since then. Lots of genetic drift across climes. Hair and eye color are no real measure of cognitive inheritance. The d-allele, however, is linked to melanin production. Since one of the other parts of my hypothesis links many peoples from many climes, I'm not saying only white skinned, fair/red haired, green/blue eyes people have inherited this genetic legacy.


i suggest you scrap this area of your reasoning, it's illogical and if i'm correct in assuming that the picture you use for an avatar is you, it smacks of narcissism .


Huh? Is it narcissistic that I'm using a picture of myself to represent me, or do I just "look" narcissistic to you? That's ridiculous. I suggest you scrap this area of your reasoning.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by emsed1
I am not sure if they rise to the level of 'theory' yet but it certainly is a solid hypothesis.


Agreed. That's sloppy nomenclature on my part.


Many people (probably most people) get a glimpse of this 'higher consciousness' and sense of oneness at some point in their lives. Whether your team kicks a game-winning field goal in double overtime at the Super Bowl, a rousing movement of spirit at a tent revival or a near-death experience it seems that there is indeed something 'more' out there beyond what we see, hear and feel.


I've been a competitor, and I am familiar with "flow" and "peak performance". The experience I am referring to as the "we are one" experience is an entirely different animal altogether.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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I don't know about the rest but I think you just look drunk, but I don't mind


Anyway..

How should we seperate inability to cope and understand large structures with the reasoning that language itself is a barrier? Just to simplify things, lets just assume any one language so that we don't have to think how five thousand different languages in a ball could somehow be a barrier..

I do understand that people with same language and cultural location cannot really explain things to eachother when they do not know a word for something, that is hardly understandable with whatever current language. However, they do share what the other means in symbological sense, even if they cannot explain it in words.

So, basically there exists a symbological thought process that is independet of language (from where another part of brain creates language which is then uttered). You however are (perhaps?) implying that this is in fact because of sense of unity. I would think that it is not so, but that sense of unity comes from this symbolic thought process that can understand others without any words whatsoever. It does not neccessarily need those, but it also isn't as capable without any.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by BloodthirstyCapitalist


Also, just because it irked me: To the poster who likened a "hive mind" analogy to people cheering on a sportsteam, or a spiritual revival, that's beyond ludicrous. This isn't an example of anything other than the social aspect of our species; we are social creatures down to our very minds, in that we need others like ourselves to maintain our sanity. That doesn't mean we share a hive mind, it just means that we experience things in similar ways, and our reactions, which come from our own individual personalities, are similar to others.


Yeah, um, that was me. I never said anything about a 'hive mind'. Thanks for playing though!



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:22 PM
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Interesting theory and well explained. It sounds similar to what Colin Wilson puts forth in his book "The Occult." He calls the conciousness experience Faculty X, but he says we inherited it from the animal kingdom and it lays dormant in most people.

You say we got the red hair and green eyes from Neanderthal. But red hair and green eyes have been traditional attributes of the Merovingians and the long line of "Priest-Kings" that trace back to the Scythians, the original Ring Lords. Are you saying that the offspring of Neanderthal and CroMagnum produced these Scythians?


Today the ancient Chinese texts which speak of legendary tall people with red hair and green eyes (formerly denigrated as mere "myths") are being reinterpreted. They are not just imaginary tales as has been assumed until recently, but they tell of the very real Tocharian-branch Indo-European people, relatives of the Celts and Scythians, who possibly controlled the Silk Road during Middle and Egyptian New Kingdom times, and down to the Classical Greek era.


www.tattooheaven.com...

A possible tie in with the Reptilian phenomena:

The Sarmatians were a cousin race to the Scythians who spent some centuries in Mesopotamia and Persia, before returning to their homeland around the Black Sea. Sarmatian warriors wore body armour made from small scale-like plates of bronze. When the bronze tarnished it turned green, making the warriors appear lizard-like. Second century Greek Pausanias refers to them as "dragons."

If your theory is accurate, then this provides a possible origin for all the dragon and reptilian references in ancient writings.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by rawsom
I don't know about the rest but I think you just look drunk, but I don't mind


Anyway..

How should we seperate inability to cope and understand large structures with the reasoning that language itself is a barrier? Just to simplify things, lets just assume any one language so that we don't have to think how five thousand different languages in a ball could somehow be a barrier..

I do understand that people with same language and cultural location cannot really explain things to eachother when they do not know a word for something, that is hardly understandable with whatever current language. However, they do share what the other means in symbological sense, even if they cannot explain it in words.

So, basically there exists a symbological thought process that is independet of language (from where another part of brain creates language which is then uttered). You however are (perhaps?) implying that this is in fact because of sense of unity. I would think that it is not so, but that sense of unity comes from this symbolic thought process that can understand others without any words whatsoever. It does not neccessarily need those, but it also isn't as capable without any.



I think I understand you. If so, then you are talking about a knowledge that is next-level for me. This whole hypothesis of mine is a toy, really. It is the byproduct of my searches. I'm trying to "get bigger" on the inside and deeper, too. There have been moments of clarity, but they are ephemeral. Hopefully, I can kill my person permanently one day, and he'll stop resurrecting.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:25 PM
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Sorry if someone mentioned this already, but I had to recommend a book to anyone interested in the connection between the abduction experiences and dimethyltryptamine.

The book is called "'___': The Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman.

It's a very interesting read. Strassman discusses his research in which he gave human subjects varying doses of '___'. It's very interesting what the subjects reported.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by TheComte
 


See Hard Disclosure Part Deux



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Another thing is that it seems obvious that with a new invention there may not be a word for something, but eventually that word will come up when somebody invents one.

We also cannot dismiss that words do work for what they are supposed to achieve. This comes down to life experience, personality and what you have studied. A lot of this has a huge variable of dice involved, if you believe in free will. If you do not, there is that different life experience etc involved anyway. This creates another picture of our world, which creates opposition to something that has been experienced differently.

Especially in, well, context of evolution, people tend to believe whatever has caused them to live a better life. For some reason (perhaps because your theory is right) opposition of others destroys these solutions as self is more important than you. However, most of that boils away if you factor in laziness, weak self-esteem and so on.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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This is a related subject but only in a sense that I give it as an analogy to better understand why language could be a barrier in a way that Wittgenstein in my opinion meant it to be one.

Monty Hall problem is sometimes referred to when we talk about difficulty of explaining things that we do not understand or others (who are explained to) do not. Here's a wikipedia article with explanations: en.wikipedia.org...

What follows from that is that human mind is simply not compatible with statistical analysis. You can ask this questoin from 10 000 people and maybe one of them will give you a correct answer. It is simple, yet almost impossible to understand.

This means that human mind is also incompatible when thinking about quantum physics, for example. It is all about propability theory, although in a very different context.

What follows is that human mind is incompatible trying to understand fundamentals of nature. So, structure and organization of brain cannot understand that theory, it just didn't evolve to do it. No theory of everything for us. Ever. Unless we evolve more.

That theory could be wrong though, but I just used this as an analogy. I believe that it does not really matter what we use to communicate, we still have a very difficult time understanding something else, as perfect systems for explaning things propably do not exists. This is because there is a limited number of things a human mind can keep in its focus at any single time.

If you have 20 variables, and an average number of variables in a mind when explaining something is 7, it does not matter what tool (language or something else) you use, explaining is an impossibility unless you write a book everytime
That number is well researched and studied. It is all about short-term memory.

I'll continue tomorrow, when I am not as tired as I am now


Here's a nice quote from that article:

""... no other statistical puzzle comes so close to fooling all the people all the time" and "[realize] that even Nobel physicists systematically give the wrong answer, and that they insist on it, and they are ready to berate in print those who propose the right answer.""



[edit on 9/7/08 by rawsom]

[edit on 9/7/08 by rawsom]



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:27 PM
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Interesting read. However, I have my own thoughts on this so called alien abduction phenomenon.

I firmly believe that there are advanced extraterrestrial civilizations that have, and are, visiting Earth and other planets. Some are perhaps millions of years ahead of us in technology. Probably advanced cultures have been partying around the universe even before the formation of the Solar System!

Now having said that, I do NOT believe in the theory of ‘Grey’ aliens abducting humans and that they are working in tandem with secret organizations like those in Area 51, Dulce and so on.

All this is nothing but covert psychological conditioning of citizens by secret black projects like MKULTRA, regarded by some as the most heinous of all the CIA's disreputable covert operations — with its most secret area of study being psycho electronics. What is their aim? Probably psychological conditioning of the human mind to CONTROL humanity!

So what about those reports of ‘jars’ in huge underground vaults in Dulce containing human plasma and human beings themselves?? I feel these are people being experimented with by none other than these so called super secret organizations.

Why? Probably to ‘construct’ robots or an army of super beings to help their ‘masters’ to build and control the New World Order. The nation who first creates this new soldier will possess a decisive advantage on the "conventional" battlefield -- as will the nation, which first develops a means of using mass mind control techniques to disable the enemy.

And what about the so-called alien abductions? These ideas are being implanted in the subconscious mind so that we are made to fear aliens.

"The kidnapping is real. The fear is real. The pain is real. The instructions are real. But the little grey men from Zeti Reticuli are not real; they are constructs, Halloween masks meant to disguise the real faces of the controllers."
Martin Canon


And as the latest estimates suggest, millions of Americans are alleged to have been abducted! Americans! Heck, why not Indians? Chinese? French? Germans? Probably the Greys don’t understand their languages? No! It's because MKULTRA is basically an American project with some minimal experimentation in some countries which are on the MKULTRA bandwagon.

So all this talk of alien abductions and “Greys’ is, I feel, pure and simple nonsense. It’s nothing but a part of mind control ops with the ultimate aim of manipulating mankind to the whims of the controllers of a New World Order!! Is America the starting place for this horrendous, dreadful experiment?

If you're an American, beware!! You may be next!! I'm a zillion miles away and no one has yet been abducted from my country! How come? Do you get my drift?

Cheers!



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:34 PM
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Kinda like Marx's thesis on Fuererbach, "unconscious projection of the subconscious mind". But what you are saying is that these entities do not exist "sua-sponte", of there own accord.
I disagree! These strange characters exist all around us. They come and go, yes, but they actually exist. Proof? Personal experience.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by applebiter
 


You make my brain hurt. Good read though.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by son of PC
 


I'm not making a hard distinction between "in here" and "out there". Revisit Vallee in order to catch my drift.

Also, Fuererbach didn't know what he didn't know. I see the same errors in other post-Hegel philosophy. All they can seem to do is argue whether the "absolute" can ever be known.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by applebiter]

[edit on 9-7-2008 by applebiter]



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by mikesingh
 


Hehehe. The content of your post tells me you know where Part III is going. Will I be allowed to post it? I'm going to go all the way into the end zone.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:50 PM
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The only true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing.




posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by applebiter
reply to post by mikesingh
 


Hehehe. The content of your post tells me you know where Part III is going. Will I be allowed to post it? I'm going to go all the way into the end zone.


Bring it on! Let's see what you've got!

Cheers!



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by mikesingh

Originally posted by applebiter
reply to post by mikesingh
 


Hehehe. The content of your post tells me you know where Part III is going. Will I be allowed to post it? I'm going to go all the way into the end zone.


Bring it on! Let's see what you've got!

Cheers!


Gonna wait until Part II is mulled over. It's funny how few bites it's received, considering the activity in this thread.



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