Russia threatens military response to US missile defence deal, page 4

reply to post by burdman30ott6

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Your safety will be by no means safer than it is now.
The media you watch / read has conditioned you to think so.

Think, are these your own true thoughts, will you feel safer knowing that you have a missile system in place thousands of miles away in a country you probably couldn't locate on a map without the help of Google?

How about a missile defense system around the US and how about staying out of other countries?

Let me ask you this, if the Russians went to Mexico or Canada and would keep putting pressure on the Mexican or Canadian government to build a missile defense system, how would you feel? I'm pretty sure you would feel much more threatened than you do now.

Wake up, your terrorist threat was created by your own government and pushed throughout the world by them.

Peace

Dang why now russia??? world war 3??? omg. So I guess we wont get to see the aliens anytime soon??? urgh!!!

I really hate bush. He is a C average student and what do you expect from him??? omg I hope the next president isn't this ignorant.

If we do go to war it will hurt the people of america well at least the poor and middle class the rich won't get affected the reason why they already converted their money into euros and also gold. They been doing this since 2003 and also took money outside the U.S to another country so they are safe it's just the rest of us will be seeing hell soon.

Did you know why the American companies were able to transfer jobs other countries I guess was to help the rich to be able to not get affected by the war becuause they will make money in other countries so it dosen't really hurt them it would just stay the same income ect.

If we do attack I really fell alot of people here might attack the whitehouse or somthing really.


I hope people vote for nader this election. The reeason why is that the Democrats and republican keeps doing their crap everyday and I do think most of us are really sick at what they are doing. They are mostly just going at each other throats blaming each other.

I really do think nader would be a good president. What people don't about him is that he dosen't give up. He been running for president so far I know 2 times but this would be his 3rd time and yes he lost badly but I will tell you what.

Bush won the election and just look what he did. I really think whoever voted bush in should be required to pay for all the expense that occured during the war. I aint going to be paying for all this war expense since I didn't vote for the stupid guy.

I bealive the voters who voted for bush should pay for all the damage he caused because they were supposed to do their homework on him and guess what I think the voters that voted him in office gets an F on their homework.

I can't bealive he really screwed up the country bad and he still isnt' finished.

I also can't bealive Bush is above the law. He broke many laws that he really should been empeached.

I just hope nader wins the next election because I don't think the democrats or republicans would do any improvement for this country.

I think it's time for us to give Nader a try since so far he shows that he dosen't give up even losing badly in many other elections. It shows he is a true fighter.

You should go on his website it states alot of stuff that he is aware of like big businesses getting huge benifits.

you should check out his website: Ralph Naders website.

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by hinky

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yes europe - that means some greek islands at the limit of its range.... oh you mean you actually checked the range then

If I was Moscow, I be saying to Ivan; "You know, comrade, it's only 1500 miles from here to Tehran. Let's hope they put those missiles south of Tehran!".

Now let's put some perspective on it.

reply to post by Drewdatt

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Boy, without fail there's one constant at ATS. Anyone who espouses a differing view from the prevailing anti-establishment viewpoint will immediately be labeled as someone who:
A. Doesn't think for themselves
B. Has been brainwashed by this phantom corporate driven, government ruled mainstream media.
C. is a sheep (or the ever popular "sheeple")

I'm challenging YOU to stop and think for a minute. Isn't it possible that there are actually intelligent people out there, including those much more intelligent than you or I, who have actually looked at all the facts as they are known and were able to come to the same conclusions as those pushed by the MSM on any given topic?

I'm not saying that in all cases you're wrong nor am I trying to single you out... you just so happened to be the latest in a ridiculously long line of ATS members who I've seen post virtually the exact same put down about media conditioning, etc. I'm often reminded of that Simpsons episode where Marge leads the fight against cartoon violence and is then expected by the other members of her pro-censorship club to also participate in a protest against the statue of David because the other women feel it is obscene. I often feel like Marge in that episode... because it seems like you have to prescribe to EVERY "Our government is EEEEEEVILLLLLL!" theory that comes down the pike or else you're labeled as someone who doesn't think for themself. That's crap. Somewhere along the line the conspiracy related topics which ATS is known for became an all or nothing game instead of a collection of ideas. It's like George Noory is beaming thought patterns into your head telling you that it isn't enough to believe in Bigfoot, Aliens, and ghosts, you also MUST believe in parallel dimensions and Nabiru or else you have a closed mind and are an enemy of true scholars of the paranormal.

It shouldn't be this way, man. As difficult as it might be for you to wrap your little head around, I have studied topics and coverage from far outside the MSM and have actually *gasp* come to my own conclusions. If you look at my posts you might notice that quite a lot of my views stray from the MSM agenda anyway. So why in the blue hell do I have to get crapped on over the ocassional agreement with what you see as an official agenda? Oh, and your little jab about finding the Czech Republic on a map wasn't appreciated. While I'm not a walking Rand McNally I did take geography in high school and in college and I'm pretty decent at finding important nations on a map. Defend your generalization, if you would. What did I post that would lead you to the conclusion I didn't know the Czechs lay East of Germany, North of Austria, West of Slovakia, and Southwest of Poland.

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by burdman30ott6

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you are what is known in england as a muppet, your countrys need to defend themself is the cause of all of the problems in the world, this action will cause a war you twit, have you forgotten the cuban missile crisis when the shoe was on the other foot. it is aggression and stupidity and attitudes like yours are what gwb love , a sucked in moron, its all of our world not just the united stupids of america (apologies to those who can see the truth), you'll destroy it for everyone!!!!! fool

So I can call all of the English muppets then. Did you forget that you gave all the Native Americans in the north east small pox on purpose by giving them small pox infected blankets. I'm sick of people of the English acting so damn righteous because your country is far from it. Give me a break please.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by Drewdatt

---

Boy, without fail there's one constant at ATS. Anyone who espouses a differing view from the prevailing anti-establishment viewpoint will immediately be labeled as someone who:
A. Doesn't think for themselves
B. Has been brainwashed by this phantom corporate driven, government ruled mainstream media.
C. is a sheep (or the ever popular "sheeple")

I'm challenging YOU to stop and think for a minute. Isn't it possible that there are actually intelligent people out there, including those much more intelligent than you or I, who have actually looked at all the facts as they are known and were able to come to the same conclusions as those pushed by the MSM on any given topic?

I'm not saying that in all cases you're wrong nor am I trying to single you out... you just so happened to be the latest in a ridiculously long line of ATS members who I've seen post virtually the exact same put down about media conditioning, etc. I'm often reminded of that Simpsons episode where Marge leads the fight against cartoon violence and is then expected by the other members of her pro-censorship club to also participate in a protest against the statue of David because the other women feel it is obscene. I often feel like Marge in that episode... because it seems like you have to prescribe to EVERY "Our government is EEEEEEVILLLLLL!" theory that comes down the pike or else you're labeled as someone who doesn't think for themself. That's crap. Somewhere along the line the conspiracy related topics which ATS is known for became an all or nothing game instead of a collection of ideas. It's like George Noory is beaming thought patterns into your head telling you that it isn't enough to believe in Bigfoot, Aliens, and ghosts, you also MUST believe in parallel dimensions and Nabiru or else you have a closed mind and are an enemy of true scholars of the paranormal.

It shouldn't be this way, man. As difficult as it might be for you to wrap your little head around, I have studied topics and coverage from far outside the MSM and have actually *gasp* come to my own conclusions. If you look at my posts you might notice that quite a lot of my views stray from the MSM agenda anyway. So why in the blue hell do I have to get crapped on over the ocassional agreement with what you see as an official agenda? Oh, and your little jab about finding the Czech Republic on a map wasn't appreciated. While I'm not a walking Rand McNally I did take geography in high school and in college and I'm pretty decent at finding important nations on a map. Defend your generalization, if you would. What did I post that would lead you to the conclusion I didn't know the Czechs lay East of Germany, North of Austria, West of Slovakia, and Southwest of Poland.

Bravo

I find myself taking an obnoxiously fascist view point in here just because the anti establishment line on ats has become so thick it reflects stupidity.

I completelt support the abm, Russia countering by upping it's technology is a good thing, let them spend money, that's how we won the cold war.

Realism works, if theres power to be had someone will have, why should I ever be upset if it's my country siezing it?

Missile defense means defense, on offense. Russia would want to stop a NATO endorsed defensive weapon for what practical purposes other than huffing and puffing. Does Russia have a plan that these missiles will interrupt or stop?

The reason is the balance of power, more specifically mutually assured destruction (en.wikipedia.org...).

MAD is a military doctrine stating, that a full-scale nuclear war between two parties would end up in the complete and utter annihilation of both powers. And as morbid as it sounds, that was the only thing keeping the human race from blowing itself up during the cold war.

The problem with missile defence is that it could lead to the politicians of the "shielded" side to think they, and only they, could survive a nuclear war. This would again make launching a full-scale nuclear assault a possibility to them.

It doesn't really matter wich side would think that, but if the MAD doctrine was truly challenged, it would pretty much mean the eventual death of the entire human race.

That is, more or less, the reason Russia opposes the missile shield - it would in their view make a nuclear war against them viable option for the first time since the 50's.

And no, nobody outside the US believes that the missile shield is aimed against "rogue states", that's utter BS. It's meant to either a) challenge the balance of power or b) channel some more money to the arms companies building the shield.

reply to post by Toveri

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That is a very lucid counter argument with exemplary examples, used on my thought process.

If we were talking about these missiles in Alaska or Canada, then I too would be very concerned the US breaking the spirit of the SALT I treaty.

This is not that kind of action, this is a protective means more for Europe than our great country.

This type of defensive measure will work great for Iran/North Korea type countries as they do not possess that many long range rockets. Their attack systems would be very manageable from this type of defensive missile system.

Russia and China, on the other hand can launch dozens to hundreds of rockets with multiple warheads per rocket, and also have dummy load capability, which will cause this type of missile shield to fail. The MAD scenario is still in full effect with these 2 countries.

You used a great example and I can not say that this system gives a false sense of protection which would draw the USA out of the MAD concept. Our military leaders do understand the limits of the system so all we can hope, as American citizens, is that the politicians listen to them.

Originally posted by Toveri
The reason is the balance of power, more specifically mutually assured destruction (en.wikipedia.org...).

Mad is in fact mad any only very badly misinformed or ignorant civilians every bought into the notion that war could be avoided by countries possessing weapons of mass destruction. Our so called leaders , especially the unelected one's, have rarely stopped trying to maneuver us into gaining profit for them masters whatever the casualty counts may be.

MAD is a military doctrine stating, that a full-scale nuclear war between two parties would end up in the complete and utter annihilation of both powers.

The only thing about MAD that could or would have held back leaders is the fear of a loss of control over their citizens; the potential death of millions were most certainly not what kept the US from invading the USSR.

And as morbid as it sounds, that was the only thing keeping the human race from blowing itself up during the cold war.

The human race were never in danger during the cold war and a few hundred millions of deaths may have affected Europe, North America and much of central and Northern Asia but wouldn't have done much to impede the progress elsewhere. If anything what kept things together were the fear that the capitalist base of operations , Europe, might become so disorganized that it would lose control of it's global third world possessions.

The problem with missile defence is that it could lead to the politicians of the "shielded" side to think they, and only they, could survive a nuclear war.

And it could and would have enabled that which is why sensible countries build vast civil defenses , that could shelter most of the urban populations, and also deployed thousands of ABM missiles to break up enemy attacks. Obviously the 'sensible' country were the USSR and if that doesn't speak to the insensibility/inhumanity of the numerous American leaders i don't know what will.

This would again make launching a full-scale nuclear assault a possibility to them.

Obviously but firing off nukes at another country is never going to sell at home ( not even the Russian government at the time thought they could get away with it in anything but self defense) or abroad and it's most certainly a more important consideration than potential casualty counts.

It doesn't really matter wich side would think that, but if the MAD doctrine was truly challenged, it would pretty much mean the eventual death of the entire human race.

Just not true. I am sure you are referring to the nuclear winter mythology that were never in any way validated by scientific or even logical theoretical analysis.

That is, more or less, the reason Russia opposes the missile shield - it would in their view make a nuclear war against them viable option for the first time since the 50's.

A nuclear war against Russia has not been viable since the mid 70's and a missile shield numbering even hundreds of interceptors in Europe is not going to affect the Russian federations power. All it can do is reduce it's advantages and since they in my opinion have plenty of those this is typical posturing from strength which will be widely perceived as threats issued out of weakness.

And no, nobody outside the US believes that the missile shield is aimed against "rogue states", that's utter BS. It's meant to either a) challenge the balance of power or b) channel some more money to the arms companies building the shield.

Not many people inside the US beliefs that and American citizens should really stop presuming that the majority of Americans who do not vote are ignorant or stupid. Maybe that 50% best understands the futility?

Stellar

reply to post by bakednutz

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“We will be forced to react not with diplomatic, but with military-technical methods,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.


What part of that scares anyone. So they will target the host country. Its not like they are not doing that already anyway. The Russian are just crying because they don't have one this good. They know it is no threat to them as they can easily overwhelm that system with their many ICBMS.

Political BS.

reply to post by THELONIO

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You're right. We're forcing this on other people.
Sure, then give the Russians back all the old Soviet territiories and we'll resurrect Stalin along the way.
Have it your way.

reply to post by THELONIO

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Becasue the Indians aren't jihadists.
Granted we meddle, but Putin wants a return of the Soviet Union and wants to eventually reabsorb former Soviet territiory.
You think these people want to be Soviets again?
The Poles want a big strong USSR part two?
At least George W. will leave office next year.
But Putin? He's still in POWER!! Democratic-my-ass!!!
Same old KGB crap and the thing is, the Russians eat that crap up.
At least George W. doesn't run ads on tv featuring images of himself practicing martial arts and taking down other people in physical fights.
True. Putin runs ads just to say "Hey! I'm tough and scary former KGB! Don't step out of line!"

reply to post by greysave

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We had an openly hostile relationship with the Soviets in the 60's.
Last time I checked we weren't at war with Russia, so why are they thhreatening Europe with violence?

reply to post by Wotan

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is it me are why is it that Isreal always in the back ground when somthing major is in front of us are they like the instigators are somthing because this is really starting to bother the crap out of me.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
reply to post by greysave

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We had an openly hostile relationship with the Soviets in the 60's.
Last time I checked we weren't at war with Russia, so why are they thhreatening Europe with violence?

My guess is because they want to be back on the top again. After the "fall of communisum" they did not have much to stand on and everythig went to crap. Now they see the chance to put themselves back ontop or at the least "Show Force".

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