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Survival Ethics - resource sharing

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posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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Thanks for all the suggestions. The double edged sword nature of this dilemma is what made us post for suggestions. Some very good ones here.




posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I am OMS's wife.


We don't know our neighbors. We don't know their names. We're in the country and can see a few houses from our property, but there's really no difference to us between these people and people across town. We have NO IDEA whether or not they are trustworthy.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]


My answer ? gather up your family, gather your guns and ammo, and hunker down.

You have no idea what so ever about them? well then they will have to cope.

I love people who think that SITX is going to be all 'WWII spirit' and every one mucking in together.

katrina should of taught us all one thing. When the chips are down, mankind is three hot meals and a nights sleep away from anarchy and savagery.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Dan Tanna
I love people who think that SITX is going to be all 'WWII spirit' and every one mucking in together.


I think eventually, it will be. But for the first several months, at least, everyone who didn't prepare is going to be in a panic and not interested in "sharing". They're going to want to save their lives and the lives of their loved ones no matter what it takes.

I'm hoping eventually, people will find ways of supporting themselves. Then it will be safe to "mingle" again.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 


It's real easy. Barter. There is always something that can be traded. Establish Quid pro quo quickly and everyone gets what they need...



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:37 PM
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People like to defensively shut down in situations like this so their minds can handle the mental trauma and their bodies can survive. This is the worst thing I believe a person can do. Fight your natural every man for themselves instinct and work together with as many people as possible. This is the only way to assure your existence is worth taking up our planets space, because you will be working towards something that can benefit others. Turn your back on your fellows and I see no point in living. I’d rather be with others in struggle, than alone with my fear, paranoia and greed.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
People like to defensively shut down in situations like this so their minds can handle the mental trauma and their bodies can survive. This is the worst thing I believe a person can do. Fight your natural every man for themselves instinct and work together with as many people as possible. This is the only way to assure your existence is worth taking up our planets space, because you will be working towards something that can benefit others. Turn your back on your fellows and I see no point in living. I’d rather be with others in struggle, than alone with my fear, paranoia and greed.


Please don't take this the wrong way.

if you think that for one minute a person in a SITX scenario will not kill you to gain for themselves, you are sadly sorely mistaken. During katrina even the POLICE stole and commited other 'crimes', so what of yuor fellow man / women on the street with no supplies? They will drop you as soon as look at you to gain.

If after a few months it calms down and people see sense in keeping others alive, then yes by all means start trading and seeking out others.

However, think of what Katrina showed you - People shot at hospitals, helicopters bringing in supplies, relief workers and every other sign of governmental help.

You really think those people will 'jolly along' and pull together ? no they will pull out a pistol and cap your arse into a shallow grave.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by Dan Tanna
 


I never said the situation would not be dire and plenty would snuff out their own grandma to survive. I simply stated what I would do and how I believe people should react.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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What I believe is, the proverbial you and your neighbours should get up and move to a more suitable survival spot near a creek, river or lake, and start to boil and/or purify water for everyone. In fact, the more people the better. First of all, you can take turns at hunting, fishing and basic survival skills. The things some people have been able to collect, such as tools, can be used for the benefit of many in erecting shelters. You will have many hands for many diverse works, including looking after the sick and child care. In short, you erect villages perhaps a little more like native north americans than we would want to get used to, but in the end we could start to develop technology, especially if we have included everyone, and therefore many have blueprints or technology, or we raid libraries. Eventually we could rebuild a better eutopia with a proportional democratic leadership that was equally supplied with women, and have villages that flourished, and looked after their own.

If you exclude anyone, you will create gangs of murders. It's really that simple. Move to where the survival can happen. If martial law is declared, all farms and homes will most likely be seized anyway, as its worded that way. So sitx will be a great equalizer amongst peoples, rich and poor alike.



posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 12:11 AM
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Double Edged Sword is right....

I see Dan Tannas point of View as Valid also.

Katrina Is a Perfect Example, but in all honesty most of the US is not like New Orleans WAS.... Maybe now it is with all the "Failure to Evacuatees" being shuffled around like hot coals, in my City, and on my street, for one example.( 3 Million People Here)

Especially in the Rural areas..... there is a bit more RESPECT of the fellow neighbor 'in the countryside'.
Small Communities simply are different, and ya never know who knows who....but most people know your Church Habits and Business Profession.
Thats just how it is.. right or wrong.. thats just how it is... Also, Country folk "take care of their own"... ( read into that what you will ).... and most outsiders KNOW this inately... Not a Bunch Of 'Fluff Monkeys' in the CountrySide who will be easily walked over.

All that Said.....

I did say to "Meet 'em at the Road", or at the "Top of the Hill" without letting them 'walk right up on you'.

Keeping a Good BLUFF as to your Numbers and Strengths may be enough to STOP any potential Hostile Actions as well.
Have a Radio on that you call to your "security team" to hold their positions.. and maybe pre- record several MALE voices saying things like "Fox 1 in position", "Fox 4 in position", "Fox 7 on your command"... etc.... you get the idea... Thay dont know its your Grandaughter playing a tape over a FRS radio.....

If there is going to be a confrontation, let it be in the place of your choosing, with pre-selected areas of cover and concealment for others in your group to watch your back while you 'Parle'.
Have a visual code like tying your boot, to signal Hostile Intent from the Visitors. ( good reason to DUCK )

I think that I could tell almost immediately if someone was going to be an immenent threat , simply by looking at them, who they are with, where they 'say' they are from, and what they have as far as clothing and gear.

If they are Locals.... so much the better... If they are "City Folk" or "No Accounts", I think we would all be able to figure that out pretty quickly.

A Woman and her children dont present much threat, even with a "non preparing" husband in tow....
If I see 5 young men with Hunting Gear on, Knives and Guns... well.....I think I'll have to approach them in a more "professional" manner.... and inquire of their Proper Christian Upbringing.

I really think it will be obvious, and I sure trust my Instincts as well. I also trust what the LOCALS know about who's- who.

Kinda like petting a Stray Dog... you never know if they will love on you or bite your fingers... till you try...
I've got my Best Dogs that way, and the Biters usually 'run off' first...

Sometimes even that depends on YOUR demeanor, that 'they' sense...and react to.

This will work 'both ways', Giving YOU a Double Edged Sword to fight back with, or just to "Show"... to prevent 'having' to pull it.

I hope that made sense. I see BOTH sides, and can sharpen either to a point.

I still say "Give 'em a Drink", even if you send them on their way to "never come back".

Blitzkreigen


By the way, If you get one of the Wal Mart 'INTEX' above ground Pools that holds 5000 Gallons of water, it will take you 17.361111111111111111111111111111 DAYS at 24/7 to fill it up with 12 GPh full solar from the well... Better Get to fillin' !

Thats 500 DAYS of WATER for 10 People at a gallon a day though!

See it here: www.intexcorp.com...

From 639 Up to 5,894 Gallons Available in the 'Easy Set' ( Portable) models

55 Gallon Plastic Drums are 14 to 20 Dollars each, but you have to make sure they only held FOOD STUFFS, or FOOD GRADE Liquids. Like Strawberry Syrup.... yum,mmm.eeee...

Other Chemicals will LEACH into the Plastic, and contaminate your water.








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posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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I've typed and lost about three replies over the last couple of days... network problems...


Anyway, yeah, it's a fine line between the security of having a community and the security of enforced isolation...

One point I'm still struggling with... there will come a time when we will have to, for our own survival, turn people away. If we establish a local community, then we can support some X number. When X + 1 comes along, then our choices are to turn them away, or dip into everybody else's ration. Eventually that will reach a point where each ration will be insufficient to sustain life - especially with crop watering in the picture.

So if X + 1 (or + 10) is just a group trying to find a place, we could cut into a day's ration to give them water one time then they leave. If they are an armed group, it could get interesting.

We've got some ideas in place, both for bluff and carry-through (non-bluff). Then, assuming worst case and we have some violence, I am going to put heads on poles at the entrance, with signs indicating these were the last people to try to cause trouble here. I'm thinking that will be a fairly substantial deterrent.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by Blitzkreigen
 


Hey Blitz, where are you getting food-grade plastic drums for 14-20 dollars?!

I want that hook up.

All the drum refurbishers I've spoken with sell the 50 gallon closed or open head for round about fifty dollars.

Even 15 gallon food-grade barrels were selling for like thirty-five dollars.

If you've got a good source on plastic drums, please share.

My advice to the OP, in a general way, is to be as nice as you can afford to be, and as mean as you have to. That's my unified theory on social situations...

If your neighbors don't even know you, there's always the chance they won't think to come knocking. They may try to hook up with their family elsewhere. Then you just have to worry about taking care of your own household.

If they do come knocking, they may not know the extent of your resources, and it's probably best kept that way.

If you can conceal your well, do so. If you can monitor it 24/7, do so. If you can create the illusion of a dry well, do so (a rusty bucket filled with putrid water laying against the well, with a frayed rope trailing off into the grass will do wonders to make people think the well is no good).



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
I've typed and lost about three replies over the last couple of days... network problems...


Anyway, yeah, it's a fine line between the security of having a community and the security of enforced isolation...

One point I'm still struggling with... there will come a time when we will have to, for our own survival, turn people away. If we establish a local community, then we can support some X number. When X + 1 comes along, then our choices are to turn them away, or dip into everybody else's ration. Eventually that will reach a point where each ration will be insufficient to sustain life - especially with crop watering in the picture.

So if X + 1 (or + 10) is just a group trying to find a place, we could cut into a day's ration to give them water one time then they leave. If they are an armed group, it could get interesting.

We've got some ideas in place, both for bluff and carry-through (non-bluff). Then, assuming worst case and we have some violence, I am going to put heads on poles at the entrance, with signs indicating these were the last people to try to cause trouble here. I'm thinking that will be a fairly substantial deterrent.



One thing that you are not taking into account is the fact that everyone will have knowledge and supplies that you cant account for yet.

I understand your thinking, and you cant provide for everyone, but every person that comes along will use ALL their energy and though processes to come up with food and water... because they HAVE TO.

No more showing up at work and collecting a check and going to the Wal Mart.

Thats going to put a hell of a lot of pressure on everyone to "find another way" and they will have 24 /7 to do it.

That 11th person may just know where a storage unit is full of 10,000 dollars worth of Mountain House Freeze Dried Foods, or an "overstock" private warehouse full of foods meant to be shipped to Dollar General Stores.

I think that we all are going to be in the same boat, and if we all just put in our 40 hours a week that we are not having to do at out jobs, I think we can make things happen pretty quick. Thats still leaves 128 hours a week for extra efforts, with extremely motivated people with a personal stock in the wealth and success of the "company".

Dont get me wrong, 40 hours a week wont be enough... but no one will be getting fired for not showing up to work either. No TV no Internet, No DVD, what else are people going to do?? .... work.. eat.. sleep... repeat.

Light a fire under my butt and I jump though hoops one legged and blindfolded. Dont even try to talk to me either, cause I'm in "The Zone".

I'm actually at my best under 'time pressure', for a signifigant gain.

Get people that are hungry and thirsty working toward food and water and combine knowledge and efforts. Someone Knows Something that will help everyone.

I Hope.

As for hanging heads on a pole... I concur.

We call them "No Accounts" around here. Some people call them "Wildlife".

I used to do a Lot of CAVING in Virginia and West Virginia.

Once we went to a caver "group gathering area" near the entrance to a particular chain of caves. On one of the side roads 100 yards away, someon had hung Plastic 'Baby Doll' Heads and Arms and Legs and bodies from a tree by the side road. NO ONE was about to even 'think' about going down that road in my group. So yes it works....

Blitzkreigen



[edit on 17-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
reply to post by Blitzkreigen
 


Hey Blitz, where are you getting food-grade plastic drums for 14-20 dollars?!

I want that hook up.

All the drum refurbishers I've spoken with sell the 50 gallon closed or open head for round about fifty dollars.

Even 15 gallon food-grade barrels were selling for like thirty-five dollars.

If you've got a good source on plastic drums, please share.



Typo meant 30 dollars.. sorry

The Deal on the Barrells is that you have to "pick them up". 5 will fit in a Full Sized Truck Bed, strapped down carfeully.

You cant have them shipped... shipping is twice the cost of the barrels.

There are 3 Local companies here that set them out at the side of the highway as you drive by. Hundreds of Barrels.

Concrete sealer, car wash soap, ink for printing companies, and de icer for aircraft for several examples of NON- FOOD Grade Barrels. These are great for FUEL ONLY. Possibly OIL for BIO DIESEL, or just real DIESEL.

The Food Grade Ones Had Strawberry Syrup, Soda Syrup, Cooking oil, flavorings, etc... Used ONCE and now for sale. 14 to 30 dollars and you pick them out and load your own truck. ( I think its ILLEGAL to re- use food grade containers in a 'commercial food business', they have to be NEW each shipment. )

98% have two 2" plugs on the top that have to be unscrewed. ( Different tread pitch on each Bung)

I have only seen a few that were Metal with a snap ring lid, and these carried OIL, but they were really cool with great graphics of the Oil Companies on them. Suitable for a decorative trash can in your workshop I might add.

I'm in Dallas... On I-20 East About 5 miles from Terrell, on the right hand side of the Highway, you cant miss them. Look for the Blue Barrel Monster.

There is also an Army Navy Store On Garland Road that sells them at a small markup.

I'm in a Large City of 3 million People, so your mileage may vary.

I suggest looking in the Phone Book for USED Barrells.

I dont know what else to suggest, except DONT buy them NEW and DONT pay to Ship them. If you see hundreds of them on the side of the Highway... turn around!

Of course you fill them with water and a gallon of bleach for a few days to sanitize them, then dump that and refill with GOOD storage water, and somewhere around 250 to 300 drops of Bleach. (20 to 30 ml.) +5 ppm.

(EDIT: Sorry I Meant to sat CC's not ml/ as I'm using a Syringe to measure the Beach... 2 cc's per gallon max = about 100 cc's )

All the Ones I have are BLUE for Water and BLACK for Fuel.

I did cut the top out of one for a Rain Catch barrel, with a sawzall.

This Barrel is also great for driving into the city and filling up 55 gallons, and driving back and transfering the water to another barrel on the ground. The top being cut out allows me to drop a 12 volt sump pump into the barrel and pump it into a proper storage container in about 10 minutes. (Water not Fuel )

They also make GREAT DOG HOUSES! Cut 3/4 of the flat lid off, and turn it on its side, with wooden stakes on each side to keep it from rolling. The remaining 1/4 lid acts as a rain shield.

Blitzkreigen

EDIT TO ADD:

Barrels are NON PORTABLE, unless you fill them when they are on a trailer, or in a Boat. Your Not Moving that sucker anywhere.

This Being the Case, PLEASE consider the Above Ground Pools ( INTEX above ) as emergency storage containers, that have 'dual use' and civilian "innocent visual cues" to the casual observer. Five or ten 55 gallon drums takes a lot a space and is very obvious to 8 year olds.

An 8 year old sees a POOL....and understands that they cant go swimming, because you "just shocked" the pool. To anyone else its just a pool in your backyard. Nothing to see here... move along...

They are covered as well, and the cover comes with the unit.



I really really really like the idea of Camo/ deception for the well. The Rusty bucket and frayed rope are a great idea.

His well is a Bored Well. and probably does not have a large above ground signature, as a dug well will.

It may be possible to throw a wheelbarrow over it, or make a junk pile of old tires or even firewood around it. Perhaps a Dog House or Pen AKA Hogans Heros. Something for the Wife.... Plant bushes and flowers around it. Perhaps a BEEHIVE or Large Grape Vine. ( Sumthin' Purty)


[edit on 17-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

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