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Survival Ethics - resource sharing

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posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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We were discussing this question a while back, and it is a tough one... I'd like to get the opinions of you folks.

The scenario:
SitX has happened. At the moment, and for an unknown time, normal services have been interrupted - no city water, no electricity.

You live on property with a well and a solar pump. You have several neighbors in close proximity, all of whom are on city water, so therefore have no water at the present time.

Your well is not sufficient to supply water to all neighbors.

Your relationships with the neighbors is what let's call "typical American" - you've talked with several of them, are not enemies with anybody, but not real friends, either.

What do you do when/if a neighbor comes begging water? Share water? Or not? Or on a one time basis?




posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 04:55 PM
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Tough nut to crack there. Well is probably 5 gal a minute? Probably safe for 200 gal per day? Give everyone one liter per person per day if you want to share. More if they bring trade items and those should show up in a couple of hours.........


Do not fail to give your fellow man a drink of water. As you do for the least of these you do also for me.......or so The Master teacher told us.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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And I will also add......Rule your kingdom with a rod of iron,(gun) lest the jealous poison it and no one has any. You must guard any resource that all are dependent on. The first law is order.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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I'm not the "typical American" in the sense that I'm pretty good friends with my neighbors. In this event, I'd share what I've got with them.

Everyone working together and sharing their skills and goods would provide the best possible odds of survival IMHO.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:06 PM
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I wish it was 5 gal/min... it's more like 12 or so gal/hour. It's a really slow well...

That's our conundrum... sharing such vital resources in time of trouble seems like the right thing to do, and not doing so is inviting conflict. But to do so in an unorderly way pretty much guarantees not enough for anybody.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:11 PM
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You share what minimal amount you can if they are trust worthy in your opinion ON THE ONE CONDITION THAT MUST BE MEET. They must start digging right then and their. Don't be shy about giving them a hand either But make them earn it by digging their own well right away or improving your own right away.

More water means more water and if they are have nots then they need to become Haves Pronto. And if they can't carry their own water then write them off.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by titorite
 


I agree, hand them a bottle and a shovel. If they dont take the shovel, too bad.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 06:52 PM
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I am OMS's wife.


We don't know our neighbors. We don't know their names. We're in the country and can see a few houses from our property, but there's really no difference to us between these people and people across town. We have NO IDEA whether or not they are trustworthy.

We were just imagining... Ok, the electricity, phones, everything turns off. We are isolated. What do we do first? Go check with the nearest neighbors to make sure it's not just us... that something is really "up". Once that's established, people are going to start panicking.

Of course, we're not going to let someone die. If they came to us, we would help them.

The problem is... if we start furnishing water to our neighbors, they have families. They have friends, who have families. And before we know it, we have 30 people coming over to get water every day and our well WILL NOT support that.

The water is 250 feet down, through rocks. A shovel isn't going to do it. We have spent thousands of dollars preparing for Sitx. We are going to be OK. But the well won't support more than about 6-10 people max - And WE have friends and family, too, who may come here.

So, where do we draw the line? Do we tell our neighbors that they can have water, but their grandchildren can't?

It's a dilemma. And the best answer we've come up with is to give them SOME water and tell them that they MUST find another way. Go into town and join with other people.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 07:37 PM
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Gotcha. I thought this was a hypothetical thread.

My situation is similar to yours. I live on a hill, I have a well about 300 feet down. The only true neighbor I have is a survivalist as well. We stockpile food together, a very close friend.

I am roughly 45 miles from anything that resembles a city, by city I mean 10,000 people, and built there intentionally. So if sit x ever did happen, people would leave me alone.

With that said, if I were to find myself in a situation like yours I would take a much harder stance. You have spent money and time to be safe, and live. They havent. I wouldnt simply allow people to die, but I certainly wouldnt cater to them either. In the beginning phases, I would try to help by simply giving water away. After a few days, that would be it. I would gladly trade water for work or items I needed, also, so I could live with myself, I would try to help them aquire water by other methods. Solar stills, condensation, what have you. If they proved they could work and honestly wanted to help our community grow stronger, I would work with them. Should they loaf and overstay their "welcome" they would need to leave, one way or another.

As a person, I truely would like to do what I can, but in the end, you prepared for this, not them. This is not your hardship. I will not die so a freeloader can live.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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I'm a dumbass.. have been all my life..
I'd end up giving it away and have none left for me..
Same with money/time/prezzies..


I'd probably try to find some way to pool the intelligence resources together to find a new supply/dig new wells so that everyone can become self reliant again.

Again it comes down to value.. a cupful of water vs 500 bars of gold makes gold worthless and water worth killing over.
You'd have to re-balance that or you won't live for very long against desperate neighbours.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 08:06 PM
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I wouldn't mind sharing as long as people put forth the effort to make it work for all.

Water isn't a problem here. A few years back a family member told us they tried to dig a root cellar on this property. They got tired and went in for lunch. After lunch, they went back out only to find the big area they dug out had already filled in with water. So much for the idea of a root cellar.

So, I don't worry about water unless something contaminates the land. We're also close to a river. The marsh is just across the street, but it's brackish there due to ocean tides. But fresh water is never very far off.

Food might be a problem. I worry about that. We're surrounded by many elderly folks, but there are some young families too. I wouldn't mind if people camped on the property if they spent a good deal of time tending and growing food. We could work together, but that's the ticket - work.

You'll always have someone who talks big and doesn't move a muscle. Unless he/she is a mad scientist like Tesla or something and can invent stuff, then he/she has got to go. If you don't move and work, you don't get fed.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 
I would share up to the point it didn't threaten mine or my families survival. If you have a cellar that stays cold buy some 55 gal. plastic drums and start stockpiling water now. If you can keep it cold algea won't grow in it.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 



I stick by my original comment for the most part... Although I would not seek anyone but my loved ones. Let them dare to come to you. If they do give them the bare minimum you can spare. But not for free. You already have a well. Lower them in an expand the well.

Bottom line is if you have an extra hand willing to carry his water then it is a boon not a bane. But if you do not know them and do not trust them do not turn your back on them. Not for nothing! Work them extra hard. Make them earn that trust aswell as that water.

AND FOR GODS SAKE NEVER NEVER NOT EVER Go into the city for assistance unless you have absolutely no other way. Where you are far from people you are safe. The more people that gather the more notice the government takes the more eager they are to send ind jack booted thugs to protect everyone from everything for their own safety.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by salchanra
Gotcha. I thought this was a hypothetical thread.


Yeah, I worded it poorly... sorry about that; mind was on other things... I guess competent multi-tasking is a thing from my yewt...



Originally posted by titorite
AND FOR GODS SAKE NEVER NEVER NOT EVER Go into the city for assistance unless you have absolutely no other way. Where you are far from people you are safe.


Amen to that! That's our fundamental plan; to avoid people if at all possible, work cooperatively if we can and only fight if we absolutely must.

Thanks for all the input...



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 08:00 AM
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Me: "Hey Joe, you guys sure are sweet, where i come from everyone'd be packing and headed for the hills!"

Joe: "That's cause' we're a community, Rob - you scratch our backs and we'll scratch yours."

Me: "Cool, well in that case i'll go scout about and see how widespread the panic is - you hold things down here while i'm away!"

Joe: "Wait a second, where are you going? Do you even have any clue of what's going on out there?"

Me: "Of course not, that's why i want to go find out - alone, as nature intended."

Joe: "Well, if you find something, be sure to come back and tell us".

Me: "I'll be back by dawn tomorrow Joe, good luck with your family".

And thus ends my uses of a community.

Really now, if you're going to do something, you'd better be damn prepared to do it yourself.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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Classic dilema... If the situation is a true end of civilization then the same thing will happen as it did in the past, you pay people water to protect the water, while always maintaining control... Eventualy you will be able to figure out how get more water or have enough collected to move to where water is... I see strangers as a liability.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
We were discussing this question a while back, and it is a tough one... I'd like to get the opinions of you folks.

The scenario:
SitX has happened. At the moment, and for an unknown time, normal services have been interrupted - no city water, no electricity.

You live on property with a well and a solar pump. You have several neighbors in close proximity, all of whom are on city water, so therefore have no water at the present time.

Your well is not sufficient to supply water to all neighbors.

Your relationships with the neighbors is what let's call "typical American" - you've talked with several of them, are not enemies with anybody, but not real friends, either.

What do you do when/if a neighbor comes begging water? Share water? Or not? Or on a one time basis?



You simply give them the water the first time or two. For nothing... here you go...

Then you ask them nicely for fuel or food in trade after the third or 4th time.

If they cant provide that, you still give them some water the next time, and ask them to help you do some gardening in return.

If they wont help you do gardening, they are not your friends, and are simply leeching off you.

Try to find something that they can contribute, or cut them off with a bulk supply of water, telling them thats the last time for "free" as you have already drianed the well 3 times and its not returning enough to share.

Any effort will show good intent. No effort is a warning to avoid the leeches. They are now Stealing from you , through lack of intent to contribute.

Surely thay have something to offer, after a few days of basic life sustaining drink that you should not deprive them of.

Blitzkreigen

By the way, everyone brings their own water containers.

ITEMS FOR TRADE immediately acceptable: ( Not Including Basic LABOR )

Gasoline, Food, White Gas, Propane, Diesel, Liquor, Cigarettes, Batteries, Generator, Oil, Medical supplies or knowledge, engine repair/ maintaince, Chainsaw and /or Blades, Tree( firewood) cutting or simply delivery, Stock Animals, Chickens, Rabbitts, Ammo, Building supplies and /or labor, Military Experience, EMT Experience, Firefighter Experience, Police Experience, National Guard Experience, Veterinary Services Experience and/or MEDS, Heavy Equipment, working Communication devices and /or shortwave or HAM Experience, Massage Therapist, Chriopractor, or Reki Master, Akido Master, Or any other Martial Arts Expert, Gold, Silver, Gunpowder, 'working' security cameras and monitors that run 12 volt, Solar Panels, or Wind Generators. Anything that runs on 12 volts, besides cell phones. Water TANKS, Water trucks, baby formula, diapers if applicable,

After all that simply ASK them what they 'know' or what they can contribute. Providing them with a list, such as this, will help immediately to spark their imagination, and what to be looking for.



[edit on 14-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

[edit on 15-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:40 AM
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Good thread!


People who find themselves with a scarce resource as essential as water will have some tough decisions to make!

I would use excess water as a trading currency, while being very careful about who knows that I have a water well. Having a resource like that would be a double edged sword, because although it puts you in a commanding trade position, it could also invite unwanted attention from desparate people, who might try and steal your water, or kill you for your water.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by Blitzkreigen
 



Now that is a plan I could get on board with....the problem is how do you control the spread of information about your well.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 12:13 PM
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I agree with the above two Posters.

A Double Edged Sword is a definate possibility and potential reality.

Not letting them know about the well, your position, or planning success is Rule # 1.

Rule # 2 is hiding like a rabbitt in a hole for as long as possible.

Rule # 3 is to pump that water OUT of the well and STORE it, as fast as it will return, while the water table is up high enough to even have water.

Rule # 4 is when they find you DO NOT LET THEM walk up on your location... stop them at the road or top of the hill, and communicate with them and trade with them there... DO NOT LET THEM INSPECT YOUR DEFENSES up close, or even know how many of you there are, until it can no longer be avoided through gained and earned TRUST.

They dont go to the well, the water comes up to them,
( with their own containers ) Maybe a small child ( Of theirs ) could carry their water up to them.



When your neighbors eventually come a knockin'... you have two choices... you either shun them and possibly make 10 times that amount of enemies.... because they WILL be back with friends at 3:00 am to get your water... all piseed off at the A - hole who wont share,

OR you try like a Good Human to help them out as much as possible, and try to get them to HELP YOU protect your water and now 'their' only water...


I just honestly believe that when your dealing with a fixed resource, you have to be a bit more Neighborly, and convert possible hostile survivors into people feeling thankful for basic life sustaining liquid that they have a STOCK in protecting and improving.


I simply think you will get a lot more success with being KIND than you will by being a Stingy Ass.

Thats going to piss a lot of people OFF, who are going to be on a short fuse anyway and already deathly desperate. All they need is a Target to focus their frustration on and I dont want to be "it".

I dont want those highly motivated and pissed of neighbors plotting against me for a day or three, and rushing the farm to take what they want and with force. Especially with 10 or 12 other thirsty neighbors who may have lived in the area for 60 years or more and that feel entitled to the well, the farm, my mate, and may even shoot my dog.

I think its best to just give them the little that you can with no expectation of trade at first to simply sustain life and get them over that "I've got to have water or I'm gonna kill something" mentality.

It does not take much to diffuse this situation, and flip them to helping you in trade for water. Really it does not...a cracker will stop hunger as most of it is really mental anyway.

Also, they may KNOW of another well in the area, a stock tank, or Quarry where you can ALL GO and get thousands of gallons in a group effort with combined fuel, manpower, and knowledge, possibly even using the pumps and plumbing that is already existing on the property. They may know of a large diesel generator, Diesel fuel storage tanks, trash pumps or even well drilling equipment that you have no clue exists.

I think the possibilities of people having an positive input in this situation outweight the alternative " immediate hostile intent" by a factor of 20.

Although I could be wrong... and would be ready to defend constantly after I knew I had been "discovered".

I know that I personally would try to HELP whoever had the water, when I thought I was about to DIE from thirst after 3 or 4 days, and finally got a drink.

Talk about Priorities shifting....


Yep.. GIVE the water away at first, with no expectation of trade, or without even asking for it.

If they offer something...great... consider it.

After 3 or 4 waterings... its no longer "life and death immediately"
,. and its time to contribute SOMETHING.... even an effort.... will do to start.

I THINK YOU WILL KNOW IF THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING OR NOT PRETTY DURN QUICK... WITHIN A WEEK.

One more thng.... when the well starts to run dry...you just HAVE to be honest and let everyone know that the Gallon a day is now a quart...

Hopefully you stored some water beforehand.

I also suggest a CHEAP above ground pool from wal mart, for 150.00 that will hold 5000 gallons. Start filling this up from the well NOW, taking advantage of electricty and time available.

Its the cheapest storage container you can buy, as most are 1.00 per gallon for normal tanks.


We are talking about this NOW... so there is really NO EXCUSE to not have water stored.

I'm not so sure you need to let anyone know about your stored water either... perhaps that should be a last ditch supply for Family.

Nothing wrong with that at all, especially after helping everyone else, on YOUR DIME.

Blitzkreigen



PS. Let me add NURSES to the above items for trade list, Dentists, and Pharmacists. Chemists, and Microbiologists.

Also... TELL THEM not to divulge any information about you or the well.

It will now be in their BEST INTEREST to not tell anyone else.
If they bring a friend... the friend shares HIS water for the first few days, until the Friend can contribute or be trusted.

Same 'Trade Argeements' need to apply, after Basic Life Sustaining Necessities have been met to fulfill Spiritual and 'Humane' duties.


[edit on 15-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]



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